Should religion be tolerated?

[DarkMaster24]

Storm, we've been argueing this for a while now and I've found this to be somewhat heated and very meaningless. We're both convinced in our convictions, so much that nothing I say will convince you that they are false, while nothing say you is going to convince me that I'm wrong, dispite all the relevent evidance I've given. At first I was enjoying this debate, but now it's just getting tedious, with all the insults traded back and forth, and so on. I don't think you are intentionally trying to be mean, but it sure is comming off that way. I don't appreciate your condescending attitude toward me when I've done my best to stay professional and cool in this arguement. I'd hope that both of us would just stop with the insults and instead try to really hear eachother out, getting the most we can from eachother but you haven't done that.

I'm not, in any way, trying to jstuify bigotry. I hate it an all forms and I call other people out on it whenever I see it. All I was doing was trying to show you why I feel the way I do about religious people. That is not my way of trying to justify bigotry.

I still doubt that *ever* black person you've met is like that. Don't you see how wrong that comes off as? That's such an objectionable thing to hear you say, Storm. I wouldn't expect that from you of all people. I'm not trying to be mean to you or anything either, I just want you to know how I took that. Just know that there are many and most black people are not the way you discribed the one's you've had bad experiences with. I know many of them through school and they are nothing but kind, caring people. I truley hope you get to meet some that way you can shatter this provincial veiw you have of them.

No, bigotry isn't acceptable in any way. I wasn't saying that. What I'm saying is that I wasn't directing those comments toward you or any of you friends, so there was no reason to be so hostile towards me. Besides, I don't hate religious people. I will admit, however, that I really do think many of them are stupid and prejudiced, especially against gays and such, but I've made it a point in my life to never hate people. You seem to be the same way, and I think that's a commendable quality.

As far as the rest of the arguement goes, I don't have much to say. We're both never going to convince each other that we're wrong and I don't see much of a point with going on with it anymore. You are very intelligent and I applaud your ability to be a reasonable Christian. that's so rare these days.

I hope nothign I said affended you, and hope you have nothing but good experiences hereon with black people. They're not as bad as you think they are.

DarkMaster

 

[Storm]

That's the difference between us, DarkMaster. I don't actually think that black people in general are like that. I have to remind myself sometimes, but I don't stereotype.

If you can't handle being called out when you say something bigoted, maybe you should think before you say it.

 

[J Bryson]

Maybe it's the masochist in me, but I can't resist:

I've Googled some information that might be interesting to you, DarkMaster24.

First off, let's take a look at the position of the United Church of Christ on gay marriage:

Last year, two major networks refused to broadcast a United Church of Christ commercial that showed two bouncers standing in front of a church, allowing some people to come in and refusing others, including nonwhites and a gay couple. "Jesus didn't turn people away," the text said. "Neither do we."

Let's try my hometown team, the Unitarian Universalists on the principles that I linked earlier:

There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

• The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
• Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
• Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
• A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
• The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
• The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
• Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

And let's not forget our old friends (pun both weak and unintentional) the Quakers, who have been in the forefront of the Civil Rights Movement in America before there was such a thing:

Beginning with the Germantown, Pennsylvania Meeting in 1688 and culminating in 1776 with all Quakers in the Philadelphia region, Friends gradually refused to own slaves. Quakers then worked to abolish all slavery and support equal rights for African Americans. Quakers played a significant role in founding the infant Republican Party because of its strong anti-slavery stand, were staunch supporters of Abraham Lincoln, and generally remained faithful to the Republican Party until at least the 1930s. During the 1950s, Quakers became increasingly active in the Civil Rights Movement and currently continue to work with and on behalf of disenfranchised populations both within the U.S. and abroad.

Sorry about the huge lettering that I don't seem to be able to modify, but you get the idea.

 

[DarkMaster24]

That's the difference between us, DarkMaster. I don't actually think that black people in general are like that. I have to remind myself sometimes, but I don't stereotype.

If you can't handle being called out when you say something bigoted, maybe you should think before you say it.

Fair enough. I just wish you wouldn't say ALL the black people you've met are like that. I'm certian that's not true.

I have tried not to say anything bigoted, but I, like everyone, make mistakes. If I've said anything bigoted on these forrums, I apologize. But it's not life you haven't said anythign bigote either. We're both guilty of it, not just me

 

[DarkMaster24]

JBryson, thank you for showing me that information. That shows me that not all Christian sects are prejudiced, however, that still doesn't convince me that most Christians aren't bigots. Thanks all the same though.

 

[ChristineES]

Each and every group of people, whether it be religious, race (there is truly only 1 race but I can't convince some people of that), clubs etc, is going to have hateful, mean, and downright lowdown people. But at the same time each and every group of people are to have kind, gentle, loving people in it. I don't think the majority of people are mean and nasty or gentle and kind just because of a group their in- it has to do with a lot of different things.
As I said before, Darkmaster24, I am sorry you had a hard time with religious people. But I think you also have to remember a few things 1. That if someone in a group harms you, you have to separate the person or people who harmed from that group- people are still individuals. 2. If you are hostile to people, they are going to react hostly to you, too. 3. If you are kind to people, most people will treat you kind, too. (not always, though).

 

[Storm]

Fair enough. I just wish you wouldn't say ALL the black people you've met are like that. I'm certian that's not true.

Why do you assume I'm lying, instead of accepting my statement that I've known very few black people?

I have tried not to say anything bigoted, but I, like everyone, make mistakes. If I've said anything bigoted on these forrums, I apologize.

In what reality is "religious people are stupid" not a bigoted statement?

But it's not life you haven't said anythign bigote either. We're both guilty of it, not just me

I don't believe I have, actually. Feel free to find a quote.

 

[J Bryson]

It's easy to find the loud ones who proclaim to all that God is on their side for whatever foul creed they wish to shove down the throats of humanity. It's easy because they stand out in the crowd. It only takes a bit of effort and study to find kind and compassionate people of any faith, including Christianity.

 

[my opinion]

So many things I've missed being away for the last few days, I just about can't wait to reply to all of them, first things first, I saw a few posts about Mother Teresa as an example of good done by religion, any idea how many countless people she inderectly murdered for her antiquated and religious ideals regarding condoms, the aids virus kills so many people in Africa and there is such an easy an inexpensive method to help reduce those needless deaths, and yet getting condoms to the people of Africa was made extremely difficult because of good ol' Mother Teresa and her constant campaigns to make sure people didn't use them. Frankly, denying people such a simple device to save lives seems to me to be a huge crime, I don't think Mother Teresa was much better than a mass murderer for this issue alone. It seems obvious that she greatly aided in the deaths of more human beings than she was ever able to help save.

Excellent point of view!

 

[my opinion]

It's not systemic, either. You are blinded by hate.

EDIT: And I'd like a source on those figures.

How can you make a comment like it's not systemic, when by your own admission you can't find the figures! Another case of someone spouting off without the facts before them. I just did a google as recently as 60 seconds ago, there are 35,900 entires. What seems to be your problem?

 

[Apex]

How can you make a comment like it's not systemic, when by your own admission you can't find the figures! Another case of someone spouting off without the facts before them. I just did a google as recently as 60 seconds ago, there are 35,900 entires. What seems to be your problem?

I just randomly typed in "plu" into google and got 18,100,000 results. Searching for something in google and then claiming every hit is evidence is not objective.

 

[Storm]

How can you make a comment like it's not systemic, when by your own admission you can't find the figures! Another case of someone spouting off without the facts before them. I just did a google as recently as 60 seconds ago, there are 35,900 entires. What seems to be your problem?

My problem is that it's not my job to do your legwork. I have no way of knowing what source you used.

 

[DarkMaster24]

Each and every group of people, whether it be religious, race (there is truly only 1 race but I can't convince some people of that), clubs etc, is going to have hateful, mean, and downright lowdown people. But at the same time each and every group of people are to have kind, gentle, loving people in it. I don't think the majority of people are mean and nasty or gentle and kind just because of a group their in- it has to do with a lot of different things.
As I said before, Darkmaster24, I am sorry you had a hard time with religious people. But I think you also have to remember a few things 1. That if someone in a group harms you, you have to separate the person or people who harmed from that group- people are still individuals. 2. If you are hostile to people, they are going to react hostly to you, too. 3. If you are kind to people, most people will treat you kind, too. (not always, though).

I know...but still I just see it more pervasive among the religious than I do with any other group. I also know that there are good Christians in this world-even though I've met very few of them, I just need a chance to meet more. But it's frustrating trying to make freinds with them and reach out to them, only to have them treat you like crap in returm. This has been the case for me 99% of the time and I'm getting sick of it. I'm sick of turning on the tv and watching Christians make hateful protests against gays. I'm sick of them inhibiting science. I'm sick of them trying to criminalize abortion. I allmost want to say I'm sick of them, but that would imply I hate them.
But what about when it was the whole group that harmed you? That's what happened in my situation. I'm never hostile toward them either, I just approach them with caution, but even then I end up regretting trying to befreind them because it allways ends up in disappointment for me. I feel like it's a hopeless situation and sometimes, I just want to give up. But then I found this website and hoped I could meet some here. I'm still in the process of seeing if anything happens/changes.

 

[DarkMaster24]

Why do you assume I'm lying, instead of accepting my statement that I've known very few black people?


In what reality is "religious people are stupid" not a bigoted statement?


I don't believe I have, actually. Feel free to find a quote.

Okay, sorry, I had forgotten you mentioned that. I guess it was because you said you lived in the ghetto and all the black people you said you knew were thugs.

I don't see it as discriminatory when it's true. I mean just look at their actions and you'll see what I mean. They envoked slavery; they started the KKK; they killed all the indians; they appose abortion and stem cell research. All these things are conducive in showing how dumb the majority of them are. (Note, this doesn't apply to the UU church as JBryson has shown me their teachings and I find it to be the only agreeable sect of Christianity.)

 

[Storm]

Okay, sorry, I had forgotten you mentioned that. I guess it was because you said you lived in the ghetto and all the black people you said you knew were thugs.

I don't see it as discriminatory when it's true. I mean just look at their actions and you'll see what I mean. They envoked slavery; they started the KKK; they killed all the indians; they appose abortion and stem cell research. All these things are conducive in showing how dumb the majority of them are. (Note, this doesn't apply to the UU church as JBryson has shown me their teachings and I find it to be the only agreeable sect of Christianity.)

Your history is selective. And UU isn't a sect of Christianity.

 

[DarkMaster24]

Your history is selective. And UU isn't a sect of Christianity.

Uh, okay....Anyhow, are you into tarot cards and such?

 

[J Bryson]

To be fair, though, there are UUs who self-identify as Christians. However, United Church of Christ is rather open and accepting, as well as the largest Lutheran denomination and the Methodists.

 

[J Bryson]

Uh, okay....Anyhow, are you into tarot cards and such?

I am. It's how I make my living. Although I'm not sure what "and such" would entail.

 

[Storm]

Uh, okay....Anyhow, are you into tarot cards and such?

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[DarkMaster24]

I am. It's how I make my living. Although I'm not sure what "and such" would entail.

Ah, cool. That's good to know.