Should religious organizations pay taxes?

[Green Gaia]

The congregants do not own the church.

But they are responsible for it's care and actions. While I was on my church's board we were very nervous about anything bad happening because we were not yet incorporated and should someone sue the church, every single one of us on the board would be held liable. Scary stuff. It's as good as ownership. Also, all of the founding members put up much of the money for a down payment on the land and the building. Legal ownership or not, that creates a sense of ownership and liability.

 

[linwood]

That would be shifting the burden, since you're the one making the claim that they aren't.

Oh come on Storm stop this BS.

Are you telling me that the largest most major churches in this country make no profit?
The Catholic church.
The LDS.
Numerous glitzy Protestant mega churches.

These are all extremely profitable as can be seen from the gold plated chauffeured Cadillac`s their leaders drive.

Nobody's saying there aren't exceptions. Personally I find the ones you listed disgusting, too. But they're the exceptions, not the rule.

They are the rule.
Percentage wise their are far more Catholics, Jews, Evangelicals,and Mormons in this country than there ever have been UU`s, unfortunately.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is relevant.

Alcoholics Anonymous is a very large organization that has "clubhouses" in members homes, donated rooms from charitable organizations or churches or property that must be rented.

If AA, a clearly spiritual/religious organization that offers a service to the community as a whole, rents property should the clubhouse receive tax relief. On book publications.

Any group which has an expense or makes use of property can make some claim.

The point is that a group or organization does not have to own property with a central meeting place to define themselves as a church or religious organizations. The IRS isn't handing out tax relief to churches but organizations.

But if they're renting out meeting space, this implies that they have money with which to rent things and therefore have assets, and presumably they got the money somehow and therefore have income.

Or do you mean that Buddy who lets AA meet in his living room gets to claim a tax deduction even though no money changed hands?

 

[Imagist]

Why? Why should one form of non-profit organization be singled out for taxation?

If a church qualifies as a nonprofit, then they shouldn't.

But many churches don't qualify as nonprofits under the standards applied to everything else, yet they are not taxed because of their religious status.

 

[Green Gaia]

But Gaia your statement here is evidence of my accusation.
I said only those deeply involved in these churches would say they shouldn`t be taxed.
(Implying a personal bais)
Then you say...



That`s a personal bias.

I understand your dilemma but if a church cannot support itself I don`t see why taxpayers should have to.

It really irks me that in some way through the tax system I am supporting the likes of organizations that spread AIDs in Africa and promote things like Prop 8 in Cali.

To me the harm done far outweighs the good done by churches as a whole.

I do sympathize with you and have to tell you that if I needed a church yours would be the one I chose.
I just don`t see any more equitable way of arranging it.

But Linwood, if churches are taxed the large mega-churches and religions that you find irksome will be fine, they have a large base to pull from. It will be small ones like mine that do not require compulsory tithing that will be hurt. So yeah, churches will be taxed, but what will be the real outcome?

 

[Green Gaia]

If a church qualifies as a nonprofit, then they shouldn't.

But many churches don't qualify as nonprofits under the standards applied to everything else, yet they are not taxed because of their religious status.

Then they should have their tax exempt status revoked. But don't penalize those of us who are playing by the rules.

 

[Storm]

Oh come on Storm stop this BS.

That was uncalled for.

Are you telling me that the largest most major churches in this country make no profit?

No.

They are the rule.

Evidence?

Percentage wise their are far more Catholics, Jews, Evangelicals,and Mormons in this country than there ever have been UU`s, unfortunately.

That doesn't mean that profitable mega-churches outnumber small, struggling congregations.

 

[Storm]

But Linwood, if churches are taxed the large mega-churches and religions that you find irksome will be fine, they have a large base to pull from. It will be small ones like mine that do not require compulsory tithing that will be hurt. So yeah, churches will be taxed, but what will be the real outcome?

Exactly.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are you telling me that the largest most major churches in this country make no profit?
The Catholic church.
The LDS.
Numerous glitzy Protestant mega churches.

These are all extremely profitable as can be seen from the gold plated chauffeured Cadillac`s their leaders drive.

I don't know about the other denominations, but individual Catholic parishes are financially independent entities from their dioceses and from the Vatican. A Catholic Church will pay fees to its diocese and might receive money from other parts of the Church, but they're separate organizations with separate books.

In fact, not too many years ago, the newspapers here reported that several Catholic churches in Toronto with declining membership were being closed because they couldn't meet their diocese fee obligations.

I can't speak for Catholic dioceses or the Vatican itself, but in my experience, it seems that Catholic parishes really are non-profit organizations.

 

[linwood]

But Linwood, if churches are taxed the large mega-churches and religions that you find irksome will be fine, they have a large base to pull from. It will be small ones like mine that do not require compulsory tithing that will be hurt. So yeah, churches will be taxed, but what will be the real outcome?

Gaia,

You make an excellent point and one that makes me pause.

I believe the real outcome will be exactly as you say.

It doesn`t change the ethical inequity I see in the practice however.

Perhaps this inequity could be overcome by actually regulating those churches that claim to be non-profit.
I`m pretty damn sure one look at any Catholic diocese books would be enough to convince any accountant they ain`t non-profit.

Maybe there is a compromise.

 

[gnomon]

But if they're renting out meeting space, this implies that they have money with which to rent things and therefore have assets, and presumably they got the money somehow and therefore have income.

Or do you mean that Buddy who lets AA meet in his living room gets to claim a tax deduction even though no money changed hands?

The point is that AA clubs and groups are considered a religious organization. And one in which groups relying on paying rent for a place to provide meetings, utilities, literature, etc. receive no tax exemption and rely solely on voluntarily member dues in order to survive.

It will be different based on one club based out of the basement of a church and another based out of a building owned by a non-religious firm. The one out of the church may not have as much to cover in rent.

The point is expanding the concept of what people consider a "church".

 

[linwood]

That doesn't mean that profitable mega-churches outnumber small, struggling congregations.

Perhaps.

So how do you feel about the compromise I`m speaking about in my reply to Gaia?

If an org claims non-profit status they should have to be independently audited in order to achieve and keep that non-profit status?

 

[Storm]

Perhaps.

So how do you feel about the compromise I`m speaking about in my reply to Gaia?

If an org claims non-profit status they should have to be independently audited in order to achieve and keep that non-profit status?

Don't see why not.

 

[Green Gaia]

Gaia,

You make an excellent point and one that makes me pause.

I believe the real outcome will be exactly as you say.

It doesn`t change the ethical inequity I see in the practice however.

Perhaps this inequity could be overcome by actually regulating those churches that claim to be non-profit.
I`m pretty damn sure one look at any Catholic diocese books would be enough to convince any accountant they ain`t non-profit.

Maybe there is a compromise.

I acknowledge there is inequity in and abuses of system and have no problem with some sort of solution that will put an end to that without hurting the smaller churches/religions. What exactly that is, you will have to ask a smarter person than me.

 

[linwood]

Don't see why not.

Good.

That I can live with.

Now, was isn`t it being done?

I was hearing awhile back about a congressman who was investigating the NP status of some of the big evangelical mega churches but never heard anything come of it.

 

[Storm]

Good.

That I can live with.

Now, was isn`t it being done?

I was hearing awhile back about a congressman who was investigating the NP status of some of the big evangelical mega churches but never heard anything come of it.

 

[Green Gaia]

Good.

That I can live with.

Now, was isn`t it being done?

Probably because it wouldn't be good for one's political career if they introduced such a thing. Imagine the outcry (mostly) from the religious right if such a thing were seriously discussed. The religious left would scream and yell too, but would likely be drowned out, lol. And those objective-minded enough to look at the big picture just don't carry the political weight.

 

[Apex]

Oh come on Storm stop this BS.

Are you telling me that the largest most major churches in this country make no profit?
The Catholic church.
The LDS.
Numerous glitzy Protestant mega churches.

These are all extremely profitable as can be seen from the gold plated chauffeured Cadillac`s their leaders drive.



They are the rule.
Percentage wise their are far more Catholics, Jews, Evangelicals,and Mormons in this country than there ever have been UU`s, unfortunately.

Since you decided to pull specific churches by name, including mine, back up your statements with evidence.

 

[linwood]

Since you decided to pull specific churches by name, including mine, back up your statements with evidence.

 

[Apex]

Displays of arrogance/ignorance are not evidence.