Should Scotland be Independent?

[cottage]

I'm divided on the issue of independence. If Scotland wasn't subject to laws from London, that would probably be a good thing. OTOH, I see worrying issues: would Scotland be part of the EU? What currency would it use?

I think the worries about economic impact are valid. I think back to the height of the Quebec separation movement in the 70s and 80s: plenty of companies moved their head offices out of Montreal. The impact of that is still being felt.

What you say is correct, concerning the economic questions especially. Scotland is a socialist-inclined nation with a statist mentality that favours high levels of public spending. Scotland does well out of the Union at present due to subsidies, which would end at independence. Banks and financial institutions have already said they will relocate their businesses south of the border if separation happens. Canada's experience, as you point out, spells a warning. The SNP are banking on North Sea Oil to finance the economy, but that is already a dwindling source.

Scotland is of course a proud nation state with its own laws and criminal justice system, and Scotland is (over) represented at Westminster with its MPs able to influence English law, while English MPs are not able to vote on Scottish law. Scotland can apply to join the EU, and if it does so it can hardly claim to be independent since EU law takes precedence over member states. The irony is the UK is moving inextricably towards leaving the EU, and that would leave Scotland, as an EU member, with fewer powers than it presently has.

 

[oldbadger]

What you say is correct, concerning the economic questions especially. Scotland is a socialist-inclined nation with a statist mentality that favours high levels of public spending. Scotland does well out of the Union at present due to subsidies, which would end at independence. Banks and financial institutions have already said they will relocate their businesses south of the border if separation happens. Canada's experience, as you point out, spells a warning. The SNP are banking on North Sea Oil to finance the economy, but that is already a dwindling source.

Scotland is of course a proud nation state with its own laws and criminal justice system, and Scotland is (over) represented at Westminster with its MPs able to influence English law, while English MPs are not able to vote on Scottish law. Scotland can apply to join the EU, and if it does so it can hardly claim to be independent since EU law takes precedence over member states. The irony is the UK is moving inextricably towards leaving the EU, and that would leave Scotland, as an EU member, with fewer powers than it presently has.

All that info...... in two paras.....
Frubal

 

[Secret Chief]

..... but since you are not a Scot you surely want the Scots to vote 'No', because if they vote 'Yes' your going to get rather more Conservative Governments than before?

Question....... Do you know about voting rights? Is it only persons registered as voters inside the Scottish border who can vote, or do born Scots get a vote, or what?

Indeed, I realise this may be the outcome for England. I may have to emigrate to Scotland!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's OK. You're safe, because you can't go into a Scottish Pub and tell 'em what 'should happen'.
That wouldn't be a good idea. And if you then told 'em that you 'hardly care', well..... Oh My God..... :faint:
Mrs MacKinnon's stout would go down on the table and her brolly would come UP!

Why are you rambling nonsense to me?

This is ignorant offensive crap.
My family are Protestants. For the most part they are loyalists. They are Irish. This is our homeland.
This Gaelic ******** is a 19th century version of fantasy literature.
The history of Ireland is one of invasion. Waves of newcomers - vikings,Normans, Elizabethans, Cromwellians. There are no 'true Gaels' here only mongrels with different understandings of history. This Gaelic culture crap is fiction. Fantasy.
I think it is astonishing that someone in America would think I should consider this a country I have moved to.

"This is ignorant offensive crap." Funny, I think the same about the awful crap you wrote! :areyoucra Yeah, Irish Celtic culture is all a myth. Yeah, you're Irish even though you identify as British and deny the very culture of the Irish people. Yeah. :areyoucra You have some issues...Go spew your ******** to someone else because I'm not interested.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

This is ignorant offensive crap.
My family are Protestants. For the most part they are loyalists. They are Irish. This is our homeland.
This Gaelic ******** is a 19th century version of fantasy literature.
The history of Ireland is one of invasion. Waves of newcomers - vikings,Normans, Elizabethans, Cromwellians. There are no 'true Gaels' here only mongrels with different understandings of history. This Gaelic culture crap is fiction. Fantasy.
I think it is astonishing that someone in America would think I should consider this a country I have moved to.

Worse, his argument was fallacious, based on the unsupported idea that because an identity has significant roots in conquest or imperialism it must be illegitimate through and through. Presumably, even the English, whose ancestors are partly Celts, Anglo-Saxon, Danish/Viking, and Norman French - and formed from these elements - have an illegitimate identity themselves!

This silly attitude managed to combine elements of the far-left (automatic pro-Republican and anti-Israeli sentiment) with elements of the far-right (the identification of national identity with a very pure idea of cultural roots).

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

The irony is the UK is moving inextricably towards leaving the EU, and that would leave Scotland, as an EU member, with fewer powers than it presently has.

Well, that would be ironic, but I very much doubt Britain is going to leave the EU soon. All the major parties, or their leadership at least, are committed to the EU.

Ironically, on the question of North Sea oil, much of the oil is in Shetland waters and those islands have made noises about independence themselves if Scotland leaves the union. When Scottish independence was far off, SNP politicians said they'd respect Shetland's wishes. Let us see if they do when the time comes.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Worse, his argument was fallacious, based on the unsupported idea that because an identity has significant roots in conquest or imperialism it must be illegitimate through and through. Presumably, even the English, whose ancestors are partly Celts, Anglo-Saxon, Danish/Viking, and Norman French - and formed from these elements - have an illegitimate identity themselves!

This silly attitude managed to combine elements of the far-left (automatic pro-Republican and anti-Israeli sentiment) with elements of the far-right (the identification of national identity with a very pure idea of cultural roots).

Keep on punching that strawman. :beach:

Apparently you agree with sandandfoam's disgusting and just plain stupid idea that Irish culture basically never existed.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

Keep on punching that strawman. :beach:

Apparently you agree with sandandfoam's disgusting and just plain stupid idea that Irish culture basically never existed.

What strawman? You need to actually explain where my argument relied on that material fallacy and not just blankly assert it.

What is a strawman is that I ever denied Irish culture exist, basically or not. How can that be any reasonable interpretation of my comments here. I'm not anti-Irish. I have Irish ancestry from both Southern, Catholic Irish and the Northern, Protestant Ulstermen. Personally, I prefer Catholic, Gaelic history and culture to the Ulster Protestant identity. My point was simply that this latter culture is not subsumed by its beginnings in conquest and colonisation, but represents a valid, historically rooted identity, which is the dominant one in Ulster.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm pretty much done with this thread. Nothing more to say, really. We'll all just have to agree to disagree.

 

[LuisDantas]

Keep on punching that strawman. :beach:

Apparently you agree with sandandfoam's disgusting and just plain stupid idea that Irish culture basically never existed.

No culture ever exists except as a collective construct built by people.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No culture ever exists except as a collective construct built by people.

Wow, really? I had no idea!

 

[LuisDantas]

Wow, really? I had no idea!

Many people make odd claims about ancestral culture, homelands and the like. I can not in good faith claim to understand why they do, so I must avoid assumptions that look obvious to me.

That does make me appear condescending fairly often, not always with good reason. I guess you knew of the first part at least...

 

[Desert Snake]

Keep on punching that strawman. :beach:

Apparently you agree with sandandfoam's disgusting and just plain stupid idea that Irish culture basically never existed.

He didn't say that. He was explaining that Irish culture is not the 'fantasy' ultra-religionist version that people sometimes espouse. You can't just 'tell' people that they need to change who they are because you think they are...what? see it doesn't really make sense.


Anyways, I voted 'yes', now, do I know enough about the 'situation? no, am I very Scottish?, no, I don't think so, do I recognize a distinct Scottish culture? yes I do.. do I think they have the 'right' to vote independence? yes, I think so, at least to my knowledge of the situation.

 

[oldbadger]

Indeed, I realise this may be the outcome for England. I may have to emigrate to Scotland!

Yes.......... the bedroom tax (for example) would be the tiniest tip of a truly monstrous dinosaur, if the conservatives could romp home every election. I want the Scots to stay with us, but will just have to wait and hope for now.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

He didn't say that. He was explaining that Irish culture is not the 'fantasy' ultra-religionist version that people sometimes espouse. You can't just 'tell' people that they need to change who they are because you think they are...what? see it doesn't really make sense.


Anyways, I voted 'yes', now, do I know enough about the 'situation? no, am I very Scottish?, no, I don't think so, do I recognize a distinct Scottish culture? yes I do.. do I think they have the 'right' to vote independence? yes, I think so, at least to my knowledge of the situation.

I didn't say anything about religion.

 

[Desert Snake]

I didn't say anything about religion.

Hmm ok however I think there is that implication if we are talking south or north Irelande, anyways, I don't know enough about the ;politics' or whatever so i'm out of the discussion.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

Yes.......... the bedroom tax (for example) would be the tiniest tip of a truly monstrous dinosaur, if the conservatives could romp home every election. I want the Scots to stay with us, but will just have to wait and hope for now.

The last time Britain had an even marginally conservative government was in the days of Mrs. Thatcher, so there isn't much to worry about. And her government left much to be desired. The main parties differ only marginally on either economics or social/cultural issues. They all represent that amalgnam of left-liberalism and corporate globalism that makes up our official culture and establisment in modern Britain.

 

[oldbadger]

The last time Britain had an even marginally conservative government was in the days of Mrs. Thatcher, so there isn't much to worry about. And her government left much to be desired. The main parties differ only marginally on either economics or social/cultural issues. They all represent that amalgnam of left-liberalism and corporate globalism that makes up our official culture and establisment in modern Britain.

Hi..... Your post does look as if you understand politics much better than I do. I just know that whenever strong blue governments are about, that we get legislation that really upsets my father and mother-in-law D) and this time it was the bedroom tax, which they couldn't afford. As for Margaret Thatcher's poll tax, the crushing of the miners etc... well, that just seemed a bit more powerful than marginal to me.

I remember the East Kent miners demos being overrun, and individuals being taken into Sandwich Law Courts, whilst coal mined by Columbian kids :yes: was being imported...... you remember that?

Oh.... and by the way..... When Margaret Thatcher died I was the only Brit member on RF who was prepared to debate for respect to be given to her after death (very heated stuff )..... just sayin'

 

[oldbadger]

Why are you rambling nonsense to me?

.... well, I was trying to suggest that your post was wrong to tell folks what they 'should do' when you don't know anything about their situation. And in as friendly a way as possible I was suggesting that it's better not to tell folks that you 'hardly care'.

But you didn't get it. I think I have an idea about what the people.... all the people of Scotland would reply to your previous post. :yes:

Fact is, your posts have shown that you don't have the first clue about Scotland, or Ireland, or any of us folks here.... at all. I'll post a picture of one of the hundreds of Murals around Belfast. I think this one is down the Newtownards Road. Trust me me when I tell you that if an Ulsterman spoke that road's name to you that you would never understand it. You might know about the ancient myths surrounding the Red Hand, which takes Ulster folks history far far back into the mists of time. You might understand why the Scottish Flag is there.... on a street in Northern Ireland. But I doubt it. I doubt that you know anything.

But I do believe you when you write that you 'Hardly care'.

Protestant Sectarian Mural On Newtownards Road, Belfast, Antrim, Northern Ireland

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

Thatcher had her faults. She gave far too much time to a neo-liberalism that was destructive of British traditions and social cohesion, and she did little to restrain the increasing rise of social and cultural liberalism in Britain. She was even an enthusiastic Europhile until she had to actually deal that body and saw how it operates and what its real purposes were. If there was one thing that removed her than power more than anything else, it was that the Euro-fanatics in her own party hated her increasing hostility to the EEC. How any Eurosceptic could take the Tories - the party of Heath, Heseltine, and Howe - seriously, I never know, but that is another story.

But Thatcher still was far better than any other PM after MacMillan, if not Churchill. But that isn't hard. Look at the Blair creature or Cameron!

I think, in the end, she was right, for the most part, in her dealings with the unions. They weided far too much power and were an obstacle to British governance as well as the the economy. As much as I'm not a fan of neo-liberalism, it must be remembered Britain was considered economically decrepid before she came to power. By the time she left power things had been turned around (although Lawson and ERM caused a temporary setback).