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Should Scotland be Independent?

Should Scotland be Independent


  • Total voters
    52

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
.... well, I was trying to suggest that your post was wrong to tell folks what they 'should do' when you don't know anything about their situation. And in as friendly a way as possible I was suggesting that it's better not to tell folks that you 'hardly care'.

But you didn't get it. I think I have an idea about what the people.... all the people of Scotland would reply to your previous post. :yes:

Fact is, your posts have shown that you don't have the first clue about Scotland, or Ireland, or any of us folks here.... at all. I'll post a picture of one of the hundreds of Murals around Belfast. I think this one is down the Newtownards Road. Trust me me when I tell you that if an Ulsterman spoke that road's name to you that you would never understand it. You might know about the ancient myths surrounding the Red Hand, which takes Ulster folks history far far back into the mists of time. You might understand why the Scottish Flag is there.... on a street in Northern Ireland. But I doubt it. I doubt that you know anything.

But I do believe you when you write that you 'Hardly care'.

Protestant Sectarian Mural On Newtownards Road, Belfast, Antrim, Northern Ireland
images

I still don't care what British people think of my opinion that the UK should be dissolved and all the nations making it up should have their independence. I care as much about their opinion on it as I do about a Zionist's opinion on Palestine.

Now let's all move on. I'm tired of talking about it and there's really not much left to say. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
If Scotland becomes independent England will go into disaster. The price of good Scotch will go up and whiskey will become unavailable. There will be no more willy jokes and William Wallace might come back as a true Scotsman and not an Aussie I may add. This may be the only good thing to come out of it perhaps
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
If Scotland becomes independent England will go into disaster. The price of good Scotch will go up and whiskey will become unavailable. There will be no more willy jokes and William Wallace might come back as a true Scotsman and not an Aussie I may add. This may be the only good thing to come out of it perhaps

The price of Scotch go up...?
Whiskey unavailable?

Let us pray....... May the folks of Scotland vote 'NO!' :D
 

ShivaFan

Satyameva Jayate
Premium Member
They will vote as they will vote, I guess we will find out. But that doesn't mean they are voting for independence, they may be voting for the slavery of con artists and sociopaths, but I am not there so my vote doesn't count. However, this gives incentive to the growing popularity in large areas of Texas to vote independence from obese Washington D.C. and become their own nation. Which would later be joined by other portions of states seeking more freedom. I am not sure I would join, but who knows.

So goes Scotland, this will likely also inspire like break aways in India which will be torn apart by Assam, and parts of South India, which are regional independence movements like Scotland, but not all such break aways are so construed as you have religious based break aways such as Khalistan and the Sikhs. India will then become a victim of yet even more terrorism, it won't be pretty.

As far as Scots, they in no way remind me of Braveheart at all, the modern Scot strikes me as a lazy welfare baby. But I could be wrong. Scots did invent modern insurance, amazing thing actually.

But the thing I focus on is, if and how they vote, would the results require me to initiate contingency plans in the event it triggers some cycle in the world economy. I think it will, but I already have the gears of my contingency plan to quickly move out of bonds when this triggers the world rise in interest rates.

Regardless of the moral and historical/political reasons, and regardless of identity fixations (which can range from racial identity to grievance identity to religious identity to "pioneer" identity to many other things that inspire break aways or nation building), and without taking one side or the other on this aspect of the issue (thus I am not voting, let me decide at the end of this "rant"), I look at it from the perspective of what impact would this vote have on "my world" personally as it impacts the world overall.

Not because I am selfish, but because as I have learned from my successes in investments, you must understand the dynamics and news cycles and affect and effect of world and local events and literally have to sort out and "peek into the future" what this would mean to these investments. This is what makes a successful investor.

Simply watching the ticker tape does not make a successful investor, you need to watch "the news" and the world overall, and even outer space.

I put this in terms of a methodology for investing, but actually it is true for many things. It just so happens, I was considering the impact to the direction of the world economy.

I could be wrong, but I suspect an independence vote will trigger the interest rate rise event world wide that I have been advising friends which will happen anyway but this could likely trigger it now and cause havoc.

Scotland owes a good part of U.K. debt. Nation debt is not a good thing when it reaches the level as found in the U.S... Just as bad is coming up with an excuse such as in family divorce situations to say "sorry, this debt isn't mine anymore, I'm skipping out of the family and it is all yours".

This is what Scotland, which received huge amounts of economic and business stimulus from the Brits into Scotland as well as housing and many other things but foolishly paid for using borrowed money in the name of political expediency.

But an independence actually will not free them or give a "get out of bail" ticket for them, they are delusional if they think so. In fact, they won't muster the doubling of their growth fast enough to recover their obligations that impact debt even if it is now much less with independence, they are going to cobble their knee caps as loans for anything world wide becomes much more expensive.

Already, even the very idea of Scottish independence has buckled budget junkies in Angola as far as capital investments in computer and real infrastructure and the vote hasn't even happened yet. The poorest will be the most susceptible, and Angola itself also coincidently has tribal factionalism and break away militias (mini armies) both racial, regional and also religious in nature that is about to tear it apart, and all over the world you will have governments and crypto organizations who will be funding break aways in other regions of the world that would weaken others and play into the hands of their pet interests.

So besides the interest rate increase cycle coming alive too early and sooner and at the wrong time, world uncertainty will feed negative cycles into the over all market itself.

As far as what you might do regarding the collapse of the bond market and interest rate threat, even if it initially raises the "value" of home property and real estate but which then collapses when no one can get a mortgage at rates of 17 to 21 percent and then governments go after getting huge property taxes as old folks lose their homes, you might consider my post on ETFs in the Capitalism DIR so you can build and have in place and ready to go portfolio to get out of bonds fast after the vote if need be.

... actually, I have decided to vote no, but our vote is of no meaning. They will vote what they will vote, at least they still have the freedom to do so which certainly is becoming harder to find in the world. Sometimes it is good, sometimes it isn't. It is complicated.

Long live the independent nation of Greater Texas.

Om Namah Sivaya
 
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Secret Chief

Degrow!
If Scotland becomes independent England will go into disaster. The price of good Scotch will go up and whiskey will become unavailable. There will be no more willy jokes and William Wallace might come back as a true Scotsman and not an Aussie I may add. This may be the only good thing to come out of it perhaps

I am mindful of your concerns but thank the lord the Japanese make world class whisky. But I'm keeping a bottle of Glenmorangie to shore up my pension fund.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
The Scotts have a long history of wanting to be free and a historically oppressive government using superior military force to maintain control of the area. So I would be in support of Scotland gaining total independence. It is already its own country so its not that difficult of a transition.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I am mindful of your concerns but thank the lord the Japanese make world class whisky. But I'm keeping a bottle of Glenmorangie to shore up my pension fund.

Oh no...... ! Don't tell me that Tescos' whiskey is made in Japan....!!! :eek:
:D
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The Scotts have a long history of wanting to be free and a historically oppressive government using superior military force to maintain control of the area. So I would be in support of Scotland gaining total independence. It is already its own country so its not that difficult of a transition.

Err..... Ummm.... you're slightly our of date there. Queen Victoria took her holidays in her beloved Balmoral in peace...... :shrug:

Let's see what the Scots really want, eh...? It's only 3 days away.....
Maybe they do want their pound, their Queen, their UK, after all?
We'll see.... whichever way it goes, good luck to them, and us.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I always thought Scotland was ruled by Germany, I know that Germany has control over Russia and the German president Putin control both countries now but it just doesn't seem natural that Scotland would be joined with England.
England is a nation of queers and goofy people, how could they maintain control over anything?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
England is a nation of queers and goofy people, how could they maintain control over anything?

:D
We're not all queer....... but we are all weird..... in differing ways!
We're not all goofy, but Goofy does happen to be my favorite cartoon star.
And, correct, we can't control much. Our buses and trains prove your point.

In fact, we're all totally daft, as proven by the Wednesday club meeting of my local model boat club. If you saw that lot you'd call for a fleet of padded ambulances. :)

But...... but...... we are very proud of our Scottish neighbours, and hold their companionship as very dear and highly valuable. I do hope that they will stay with us despite all the niggles and annoyances that we cause.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Err..... Ummm.... you're slightly our of date there. Queen Victoria took her holidays in her beloved Balmoral in peace...... :shrug:

Let's see what the Scots really want, eh...? It's only 3 days away.....
Maybe they do want their pound, their Queen, their UK, after all?
We'll see.... whichever way it goes, good luck to them, and us.

While I can't fathom why anyone would willingly be under a monarchy, it's worth pointing out that "wanting the Queen" doesn't necessarily entail wanting to be part of the UK. In fact, most of the places that Elizabeth is Queen of are not part of the UK.

You'd never tell by the way she behaves - she certainly doesn't act like the head of state of Canada or Australia as much as the head of state of the UK - but at least in theory, there's no particular requirement to be part of the UK to have the Queen as your monarch.
 

Jeremy Taylor

Active Member
While I can't fathom why anyone would willingly be under a monarchy,

Well, because a monarch can be above politics and a more effective symbol of the heritage and rooted identity of the nation.

In fact, I don't understand why one would rush to get rid of a monarch like Britain's, unless out of some dogmatic belief in democracy as the only just or good form of government.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Well, because a monarch can be above politics and a more effective symbol of the heritage and rooted identity of the nation.
I've yet to see a monarch of any country who is above politics. I'm also unsure how a person who is the monarch of 16 different geographically and culturally diverse sovereign nations could be an "effective symbol of the heritage and rooted identity" of any one of them (unless you mean "rooted" in the Australian sense, maybe).

In fact, I don't understand why one would rush to get rid of a monarch like Britain's, unless out of some dogmatic belief in democracy as the only just or good form of government.
The legitimacy of government is derived from the consent of the governed. Monarchy attempts to throw this principle away... even though most monarchists at least pay lip-service to the idea (for instance, by trotting out survey results about public support for the monarchy).

Edit: in any case, even if Queen Elizabeth was ever "an effective symbol of the heritage and rooted identity" of the Scottish people, independence wouldn't do anything to diminish this.
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
I've yet to see a monarch of any country who is above politics. I'm also unsure how a person who is the monarch of 16 different geographically and culturally diverse sovereign nations could be an "effective symbol of the heritage and rooted identity" of any one of them (unless you mean "rooted" in the Australian sense, maybe).

Cultural, historical and national heritage. Its like saying "I do not see why Jesus would be a unifying figure of Christianity" or "How is George Washington a unifying factor for States which do not exists at the time" These figures and positions helped form or influenced the history of these nations.

The legitimacy of government is derived from the consent of the governed. Monarchy attempts to throw this principle away... even though most monarchists at least pay lip-service to the idea (for instance, by trotting out survey results about public support for the monarchy).
Sure theses day it is true for some nations. However in the past monarchs were the heads of the government. I totally agree that most monarchs are lip-service. They act as a unifying voice. A voice based on the positions historic and cultural values as pointed out above.

Edit: in any case, even if Queen Elizabeth was ever "an effective symbol of the heritage and rooted identity" of the Scottish people, independence wouldn't do anything to diminish this.
The UK monarchy has next to no power these days. It's power is influential via the public and dialogue. If the Queen tried to veto anything against the majority she would be looking for another line of work The Queen represents a unified crown, it is the Scottish crown she represents in this case. She could be the last of those representing this part of Scottish history just as previous monarchs.

It is amazing. You are talking about the unifying influence of a monarchy but completely fail to grasp that you are talking about this very influence..
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Cultural, historical and national heritage. Its like saying "I do not see why Jesus would be a unifying figure of Christianity" or "How is George Washington a unifying factor for States which do not exists at the time" These figures and positions helped form or influenced the history of these nations.

Sure theses day it is true for some nations. However in the past monarchs were the heads of the government. I totally agree that most monarchs are lip-service. They act as a unifying voice. A voice based on the positions historic and cultural values as pointed out above.

It is amazing. You are talking about the unifying influence of a monarchy but completely fail to grasp that you are talking about this very influence..

I don't want to pull this thread off topic any more than it already has been. If anyone wants to debate the idea of monarchy, feel free to start another thread. For the purposes of this thread, I'll just leave it as this:

- Monarchy is a separate issue from independence. There's no particular reason why these two things have to have any relationship whatsoever.

- If these issues are made to go together - i.e. if Scotland would end up as a republic if it was independent - then I don't think this is a strike against the independence cause. If anything, it might convince some Scots to vote for independence in order to get out from under the monarchy.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
:D
We're not all queer....... but we are all weird..... in differing ways!
We're not all goofy, but Goofy does happen to be my favorite cartoon star.
And, correct, we can't control much. Our buses and trains prove your point.

In fact, we're all totally daft, as proven by the Wednesday club meeting of my local model boat club. If you saw that lot you'd call for a fleet of padded ambulances. :)

But...... but...... we are very proud of our Scottish neighbours, and hold their companionship as very dear and highly valuable. I do hope that they will stay with us despite all the niggles and annoyances that we cause.

I refuse to support England until they bring back Monty Python, until then I hold no love towards your country!
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I refuse to support England until they bring back Monty Python, until then I hold no love towards your country!

The Monty Python crew are all old-f-rts now. Some (like Ronnie Barker) have left this earth for great comic stages in the sky. Ronnie Corbett has a part time job doing adverts for 'meals on wheels' for oldies... ! :) etc...

Anyway...... that lot were far too sensible for modern day Britain.

By the way.......... the 'Yes' and 'No' polls are showing nearly 50% for and 50% against at this time. It's anybody's guess which way the caber will fall.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
The Monty Python crew are all old-f-rts now. Some (like Ronnie Barker) have left this earth for great comic stages in the sky. Ronnie Corbett has a part time job doing adverts for 'meals on wheels' for oldies... ! :) etc...

Anyway...... that lot were far too sensible for modern day Britain.

By the way.......... the 'Yes' and 'No' polls are showing nearly 50% for and 50% against at this time. It's anybody's guess which way the caber will fall.

Well sir, if you do not support The House of Monty Python it is best I take my leave:
silywalk.gif
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Spookily this forum poll is a reflection of the actual polling in Scotland...too close to call.

Yes! Almost 50-50.
I think that this is bad for Scotland. It would be much better if there would be a landslide either way, otherwise a huge % of the Scottish will feel let down by their own folks.
 
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