Should Tipping be Banned?

[Penumbra]

It's discriminatory. This is Lynn's No. 1 reason for outlawing tipping. In his research, he's found that the people who get the most tips are slender white women in their 30s with large breasts. What a surprise.

He's also found that minorities get fewer tips in general. When you have an aspect of employment that hurts a broad class of people, whether it's intentional or not, that's absolutely discriminatory. This is a class-action lawsuit just waiting to be filed.

Some of my co-workers were talking about tipping bartenders, and specifically what leads them to leave big tips.

"If she's hot" was an answer they agreed on.

I could understand subconsciously tipping more attractive people better, but to consciously be aware of the fact that they reward better looking people with more money for the same service, to casually and openly talk about it and then laugh about it, is very odd to me.

 

[Alceste]

Just to make sure everything is clear for everyone, advocating "banning tip" is the same thing as raising the minimum wage for servers.

Great, that way an experienced maitre de at a posh celeb restaurant can earn the same as a pimply teenager working his first job at McDonalds.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Great, that way an experienced maitre de at a posh celeb restaurant can earn the same as a pimply teenager working his first job at McDonalds.

That is in no way reflective of what happens here under this system.

 

[dust1n]

Great, that way an experienced maitre de at a posh celeb restaurant can earn the same as a pimply teenager working his first job at McDonalds.

Because that's exactly how it works. :sarcastic

That is in no way reflective of what happens here under this system.

Stop it lewis, your country is dispelling myths about food production that we seem to hold oh so very close to our hearts.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Because that's exactly how it works. :sarcastic



Stop it lewis, your country is dispelling myths about food production that we seem to hold oh so very close to our hearts.

I think what isn't being said is that there is an assumption that patrons really know what good service actually looks like. I mean as a general rule.

So what happens is that depending on the establishment itself, the demographic, and the appearance of the wait staff, what is being earned is at the mercy of the customer. For all intents and purposes, the customer decides the amount of the tip based on what they feel is a satisfactory dinner experience. What is "satisfactory", from what I have experienced, not only varies widely, but what is considered an adequate tip. There are a lot of variables to consider.

Otherwise, how else can anyone explain the huge difference I got when I drove a beer cart around a posh golf course in short shorts handing drinks to fellas with a smile as opposed to when I'd bust my tail to give good service to regular joe's in a diner? A hundred dollars in the course of an hour contrasted with $20 from an entire shift. I'd love to hear the explanations as to what made up the difference. Was it the legs I showed? Then is it really about the service? Is it really about the job? Or is it something else entirely? It can't just be about the establishment, because I've worked in 4-star restaurants before, too, where the dress code was tuxedo tops, black pants, bow-ties, and required make-up applied for a polished appearance.

Also, nobody addressed Penumbra's post about a bartender getting tipped more "because she's hot." Or strippers getting tipped more because they have breast implants.

 

[dust1n]

I think what isn't being said is that there is an assumption that patrons really know what good service actually looks like. I mean as a general rule.

That is an unspoken assumption, and I could probably identify a few more, like the fact of the percentage of the bill somehow reflects quantitatively the cost of providing the service, or that the server is in control in any meaningful way when providing a quality service experience.

So what happens is that depending on the establishment itself, the demographic, and the appearance of the wait staff, what is being earned is at the mercy of the customer. For all intents and purposes, the customer decides the amount of the tip based on what they feel is a satisfactory dinner experience. What is "satisfactory", from what I have experienced, not only varies widely, but what is considered an adequate tip. There are a lot of variables to consider.

Otherwise, how else can anyone explain the huge difference I got when I drove a beer cart around a posh golf course in short shorts handing drinks to fellas with a smile as opposed to when I'd bust my tail to give good service to regular joe's in a diner? A hundred dollars in the course of an hour contrasted with $20 from an entire shift. I'd love to hear the explanations as to what made up the difference. Was it the legs I showed? Then is it really about the service? Is it really about the job? Or is it something else entirely? It can't just be about the establishment, because I've worked in 4-star restaurants before, too, where the dress code was tuxedo tops, black pants, bow-ties, and required make-up applied for a polished appearance.

Also, nobody addressed Penumbra's post about a bartender getting tipped more "because she's hot." Or strippers getting tipped more because they have breast implants.

And what's funny is that already we have near 200 posts about the ethics of the situation, and we haven't really begun to explore that issue of discrimination yet.

It's really not surprising to see such dismissal and misrepresentation of arguments. Consider there are at least twenty posters who felt it necessary to tell us how much they tip in various circumstances, yet, unsurprisingly, no one ever mentioned themselves under-tipping or tipping unfairly, though we all know it happens.

It could be that some are so emotionally involved with the perceived small acts of kindness (of us as consumers going beyond what is necessary to reward people in individual situations), that it is too difficult to reassess the situation in a light that shows our individual acts of kindness as being somewhat diminished or contributory to a systemic problem that is, in a very real way, a giant act of unkindness.


I like this thread, cause I'm learning so much so fast.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Could it be that some servers have never had a fine dining experience in their life and never even saw an on and beyond level of service before? I guess it might be hard to do something you never even knew existed.

Perhaps young people may only tip attractive servers because they don't have much money to tip with.

I think the amount of a tip might have more to do with the customers ability to tip than how a person looks.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think what isn't being said is that there is an assumption that patrons really know what good service actually looks like. I mean as a general rule.

So what happens is that depending on the establishment itself, the demographic, and the appearance of the wait staff, what is being earned is at the mercy of the customer. For all intents and purposes, the customer decides the amount of the tip based on what they feel is a satisfactory dinner experience. What is "satisfactory", from what I have experienced, not only varies widely, but what is considered an adequate tip. There are a lot of variables to consider.

As a civil servant, I've had to tell people various things they didn't like (e.g. "your perception of how fast cars are going on your street doesn't match the data we collected" or "we aren't going to implement the 'safety improvement' you suggested because it would actually make your street less safe"). I'm kind of glad my wages aren't subject to their whims.

Also, nobody addressed Penumbra's post about a bartender getting tipped more "because she's hot." Or strippers getting tipped more because they have breast implants.

I did. I pointed out that in any other system where an employee's compensation was based on the size of their breasts, their employer would get sued.

Could it be that some servers have never had a fine dining experience in their life and never even saw an on and beyond level of service before? I guess it might be hard to do something you never even knew existed.

I doubt that's the case very often, but when it is, it would seem to me to point to a lack of training.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

As a civil servant, I've had to tell people various things they didn't like (e.g. "your perception of how fast cars are going on your street doesn't match the data we collected" or "we aren't going to implement the 'safety improvement' you suggested because it would actually make your street less safe"). I'm kind of glad my wages aren't subject to their whims.

Interesting point. I hadn't considered that.

I did. I pointed out that in any other system where an employee's compensation was based on the size of their breasts, their employer would get sued.

Ah, my mistake. My apologies for ignoring your post.

 

[Alceste]

That is an unspoken assumption, and I could probably identify a few more, like the fact of the percentage of the bill somehow reflects quantitatively the cost of providing the service, or that the server is in control in any meaningful way when providing a quality service experience.



And what's funny is that already we have near 200 posts about the ethics of the situation, and we haven't really begun to explore that issue of discrimination yet.

It's really not surprising to see such dismissal and misrepresentation of arguments. Consider there are at least twenty posters who felt it necessary to tell us how much they tip in various circumstances, yet, unsurprisingly, no one ever mentioned themselves under-tipping or tipping unfairly, though we all know it happens.

It could be that some are so emotionally involved with the perceived small acts of kindness (of us as consumers going beyond what is necessary to reward people in individual situations), that it is too difficult to reassess the situation in a light that shows our individual acts of kindness as being somewhat diminished or contributory to a systemic problem that is, in a very real way, a giant act of unkindness.


I like this thread, cause I'm learning so much so fast.

It's hard to get down into the niggly details of whether tipping is "discriminatory" or "unfair" when you really can't see what the big deal is.

We're talking about a BAN here. Presumably that's some kind of law? A law saying that if I walk into my breakfast joint and the waitress remembers I'm there for coffee and eggs benny, keeps the service quick and my coffee filled, I can't slip her an extra twenty or thirty percent?

I get that this is just a custom and there's no real reason it needs to continue, but I need to know more about how you plan to stamp out tipping. I worry that the effect would be a major drop in the income of some damn fine waiters and bartenders.

By the way, I do think waiters get minimum wage here already, so you wouldn't be raising anybody's income.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

While I'm not in favor of banning tipping, I am strongly in favor of increasing the wages of those who relly on tips up to minimum wage so they don't have to rely on tips and worry about all the people who stiff them just because they are an *** hole.
I've personally never found it awkward, just more of a way of giving feedback on the service. Back when I had a decent paying job on a few occasions I tipped $20 dollars for exceptional service. A couple times I tossed a few pennies on the table for exceptionally crappy service (such as making me wait 20 minutes for just a drink and chips and salsa when the place was clearly not busy).

 

[Alceste]

You know what I'd like to see? Minimum wage raised to a living wage and extended to service staff. If that happened, I'd have no reservations about tipping going out of fashion. I can't see that ever happening though. Minimum wage is always going to be a pittance, and service staff are always going to be on the bottom rung as far as wages are concerned.

 

[dust1n]

It's hard to get down into the niggly details of whether tipping is "discriminatory" or "unfair" when you really can't see what the big deal is.

We're talking about a BAN here. Presumably that's some kind of law? A law saying that if I walk into my breakfast joint and the waitress remembers I'm there for coffee and eggs benny, keeps the service quick and my coffee filled, I can't slip her an extra twenty or thirty percent?

I get that this is just a custom and there's no real reason it needs to continue, but I need to know more about how you plan to stamp out tipping. I worry that the effect would be a major drop in the income of some damn fine waiters and bartenders.

By the way, I do think waiters get minimum wage here already, so you wouldn't be raising anybody's income.

That's the misconception. The ban on tipping we are referring to doesn't criminalize tipping. It prevents the employer from paying tipped employees under minimum wage (the federal limit is 2.13, while minimum wage is 7.25). This is done, because the wage is to be made up solely on tips, unless minimum wage isn't achieved, in which the employer must meet minimum wage (this is assuming the workers realize this, and the employer doesn't take advantage, since enforcement of labor laws in restaurants is notoriously bad).

So thus, the following logistical nightmare, and complete waste of money, especially since 40% of all tip income isn't reported to the IRS:

http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm

The whole system is a public burden, a waste of money, and from I can find, in comparing this system with one without a special lower tipped minimum wage, e.g. Australia, the average tipped worker ends up making 25%-30% more in places where there is no special minimum wage. And you can still tip after that! It's not illegal to leave a tip on a table despite this.

So, who really wins in the American system? Owners of restaurants.

And who pays for it? The entire public via taxes and the workers who end up making less. And I still haven't mentioned the innate discrimination.

 

[dust1n]

You know what I'd like to see? Minimum wage raised to a living wage and extended to service staff. If that happened, I'd have no reservations about tipping going out of fashion. I can't see that ever happening though. Minimum wage is always going to be a pittance, and service staff are always going to be on the bottom rung as far as wages are concerned.

Well, ya me too... getting rid of the baby minimum wage seems to be the way to push the country in the right direction.

 

[Alceste]

Well, ya me too... getting rid of the baby minimum wage seems to be the way to push the country in the right direction.

I just checked, and there is a gap between "liquor servers" and everybody else. It's $1.25 per hour, or $9 as opposed to $10.25. That gap has recently expanded with minimum wage increases. It used to be 25 cents.

Government of B.C., Ministry of Labour, Employment Standards Branch, Minimum Wage Factsheet

Maybe that's why I'm not getting it. We don't use tipping as an excuse for restaurant owners to exploit workers here, but I still think tipping is necessary to boost minimum wage to a living wage for servers.

 

[dust1n]

I just checked, and there is a gap between "liquor servers" and everybody else. It's $1.25 per hour, or $9 as opposed to $10.25. That gap has recently expanded with minimum wage increases. It used to be 25 cents.

Government of B.C., Ministry of Labour, Employment Standards Branch, Minimum Wage Factsheet

Maybe that's why I'm not getting it. We don't use tipping as an excuse for restaurant owners to exploit workers here, but I still think tipping is necessary to boost minimum wage to a living wage for servers.

Seems like Canada has a fine enough model. Australia, too. For some reason, here, we hold off from paying food workers more, in case the quality decreases (which, I don't see any evidence that quality of service would change) as a result of us as consumers not having to pay restaurant employees on behalf of the owner.

 

[Shermana]

Has anyone posted this here yet?

NYC Restaurant Does Away with Tipping, Pays Staff Salary Plus Benefits

 

[Pagan_Patriot]

Has anyone posted this here yet?

NYC Restaurant Does Away with Tipping, Pays Staff Salary Plus Benefits

Nice! But what if I want to slip a 20 in their pocket when nobody is looking? . I probably would haha.

 

[Sunstone]

Has anyone posted this here yet?

NYC Restaurant Does Away with Tipping, Pays Staff Salary Plus Benefits

The article hints the staff's earnings might have declined a bit with the move away from tips.

 

[Alceste]

The article hints the staff's earnings might have declined a bit with the move away from tips.

Doesn't it state that they were never getting tips? That the tips were always going into the owner's pocket, and now the hiked, tipless prices are also going into the owner's pocket? It doesn't look like he gave the staff a raise. It looks like he was just trying to find a way to legitimize stealing their tips.

However you look at it, this isn't a prime example of a great deal for servers. In BC, all full time staff get paid holidays. Even restaurant workers. And we still tip.