Should Tipping be Banned?

[dust1n]

How is a commission sales job any different? Some people are born salesmen while other starve working in the industry.

Commission is fine if there is a minimum wage, so are tips, but if there isn't base pay, then that sales company is so obviously exploitative (Kirby vacuums, Cutco knives, fake mystery shopper firms).

 

[MysticSang'ha]

dust1n, some people are not cut out to work in the service industry. The public weeds them out. Before my daughter got her killer job, she worked at a lower class establishment and made decent money. Many of her co-workers complained about low tips but where jealous that she could make more money each night than they did.

They where lazy and did not go the extra mile to get bigger tips.

Very true.

I love you both, fellas. But I get the impression that you'd think that about me when I was busting my tail at work. And to you, I'd say - again - that I love you, but you both can kiss my *** for suggesting that I was lazy at my job and that was the reason why I wasn't making as much money as others.

 

[Sunstone]

I love you both, fellas. But I get the impression that you'd think that about me when I was busting my tail at work. And to you, I'd say - again - that I love you, but you both can kiss my *** for suggesting that I was lazy at my job and that was the reason why I wasn't making as much money as others.

I'm not suggesting you were lazy at your job. Far from it. I don't know why you say you were a bad waitress. And I'm rather surprised that you think you were.

In my experience, Heather, some people are better able to deal with the stupidity, callousness, and general hysteria of the American public than others. I myself had to learn how to let it slide. It didn't come natural to me. But my tips went way up once I had learned how to shake off the pettiness of many of my customers and give them good service nevertheless.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I'm not suggesting you were lazy at your job. Far from it. I don't know why you say you were a bad waitress. And I'm rather surprised that you think you were.

You agreed with Rev Rick that others were just jealous about his daughter's success and that they were just lazy and didn't want to go the extra mile. That's the reason behind my suggestion you both kiss my ***.

Look, the idea presented is that the amount of tips is directly related to the level of work/service provided to customer within the establishment. Because of the years of financial struggle, I was getting the impression that competency = living wages in tips. Hence, following that logic, the impression I got was that because I was not getting a living wage, I was not competent.

I know I have joked about sucking at my job as a waitress before, but honest to god I worked my tail off and cared about the people I served. I could make great money doing the beer cart, so I have to contend against the notion that competency in food or beverage service is so entirely related to amount of tips received at the end of the night.

I contend demographics are a large part, the type of establishment, the ability for cooks and wait staff to communicate to each other, the hostess not favoring one section over another and seating people according to customers wishes as well as considering the wait staff as a whole, too. And that the establishment caters to patrons who are educated and enthusiastic about the ethics of tipping for good service.

In my experience, Heather, some people are better able to deal with the stupidity, callousness, and general hysteria of the American public than others. I myself had to learn how to let it slide. It didn't come natural to me. But my tips went way up once I had learned how to shake off the pettiness of many of my customers and give them good service nevertheless.

I have no doubt you were able to figure out something that worked for you to see your tips increase that much more. My thought is that you were simply an exceptional waiter.....rare....when it comes to food service. I have said before that my experience in going out to eat is that exceptional service is few and far between. Not the norm. Not even notable. Rare. But just as rare as truly bad service, too.

My argument is for that whole grey area in between that make up the bulk of the workforce and not suggesting that the blame lies entirely on the service workers themselves to just either get with the program, just work harder, just give better service, just go find a 5 star restaurant, or just get another job. I'm passionate about this because this was the way I chose to survive. I already felt exploited out the wazoo due to working as an artist. Reading some of the flippant arguments about what kept me from starving to death about how all I needed to do was work harder to do better is rather insulting.

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I feel better after getting that off my chest.

 

[Sunstone]

You agreed with Rev Rick that others were just jealous about his daughter's success and that they were just lazy and didn't want to go the extra mile. That's the reason behind my suggestion you both kiss my ***.

No, I did not. I agreed with Rev Rick that not everyone is cut out to work in a service job. But I said nothing about his notion that people who get lousy tips are lazy. I don't believe that, and I've never believed that.

Furthermore, in my experience there are many reasons people who get lousy tips get lousy tips. I believe the single biggest reasons are the type of clientele they service combined with the volume of the restaurant. For instance, if you work in a low volume restaurant where most of the clientele are retirees on fixed incomes, you are unlikely to make good tips.

I also believe that most people tip more or less what their parents taught them to tip. That is, they don't figure out a percentage of the tab, but simply plop down a few bucks -- however many bucks their mom or dad used to plop down. And they pretty much do that regardless of the service they get.

Good service does matter somewhat in determining the amount of tips you make, but not as much as many people think it matters -- especially with people who were not taught to calculate a percentage tip by their parents.

The way to wait tables, if you want to do it for a living wage, is to first get a job in the right restaurant. Ideally, that's a busy up scale restaurant. But a very high volume mid scale will do, too. Second, forget about tips, and instead perfect your service techniques. When you do those things, the tips will take care of themselves. At least, that's been my experience.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No, I did not. I agreed with Rev Rick that not everyone is cut out to work in a service job. But I said nothing about his notion that people who get lousy tips are lazy. I don't believe that, and I've never believed that.

The "very true" response post I took to mean it addressing the entirety of his post. Not just the first line.

So no kissing my *** just for fun, then? Damn....

Furthermore, in my experience there are many reasons people who get lousy tips get lousy tips. I believe the single biggest reasons are the type of clientele they service combined with the volume of the restaurant. For instance, if you work in a low volume restaurant where most of the clientele are retirees on fixed incomes, you are unlikely to make good tips.

I also believe that most people tip more or less what their parents taught them to tip. That is, they don't figure out a percentage of the tab, but simply plop down a few bucks -- however many bucks their mom or dad used to plop down. And they pretty much do that regardless of the service they get.

Good service does matter somewhat in determining the amount of tips you make, but not as much as many people think it matters -- especially with people who were not taught to calculate a percentage tip by their parents.

The way to wait tables, if you want to do it for a living wage, is to first get a job in the right restaurant. Ideally, that's a busy up scale restaurant. But a very high volume mid scale will do, too. Second, forget about tips, and instead perfect your service techniques. When you do those things, the tips will take care of themselves. At least, that's been my experience.

I think that's more comprehensive advice. It sure is better than, "Hey, just work harder and stop being such lazy dolts, you young whipper-snappers!"

 

[dust1n]

You agreed with Rev Rick that others were just jealous about his daughter's success and that they were just lazy and didn't want to go the extra mile. That's the reason behind my suggestion you both kiss my ***. ...


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I feel better after getting that off my chest.

After reading what you said, I don't think my consciousness can allow me to engage any establishment like this anymore. I was already weaning away, but I;m fairly certain I just can't do it any longer. If jobs are lost for waiters, then I'd be happy to channel my money to new institutions that don't have the same archaic methods, so that new jobs are created elsewhere. Hell, the more I go to the local groceries stores, the more money for the local economy and the more even better jobs for people there are.

 

[Alceste]

Well, I did have those drinks after all. Malbec. Chateau de Boite de Carton. Cleaned the gutters, swept the roof, dead headed a pair of twelve foot rhododendrons, got groceries, fixed the strawberry fence, mowed the lawn, vacuumed the stairs.

Got no tips, but I did get a sunburn.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Banning tipping is not a good idea.

Banning the notion that tipping should be expected and mandatory and that a "bad tipper" has to be thought of negatively or have their food spat in on the next visit or such is a good idea.

Banning the rule that allows employers to pay servers less than dirt wages under the idea that tips are expected is a great idea.

There ya go. This makes sense to me.
In simple terms, if there is an expectation that you should tip 15% (and I'm Australian, so it's very different here) then just raise food prices by 15%, pay the staff an actual minimum wage that is enough to live on (which is the whole frigging point of HAVING a minimum wage) and allow people to tip if they want to for service above and beyond.

I don't want to give the impression tipping is banned in Australia, or anything like that, and it would be stupid to do it in America (unless it was being used as a mechanism for removing the obligation...kinda like affirmative action for tipping - even then, not the way I would go).

I've never waited, but my wife waited her way through uni. And she relied on tips to go from 'paying bills-awesome' to 'paying bills and buying that new whatever - AWESOME'

Surely that makes more sense than people in here talking about saving the bus fare home, etc.

As for the people who have said 'Yeah, but how would you discourage it', the very fact that prices get jacked up, and owners have to pay their staff will naturally discourage tips. My guess is that tips would probably become very rare initially, and then gradually increase back to a sustainable level, but that is just a guess.

 

[savagewind]

then just raise food prices by 15%, pay the staff an actual minimum wage that is enough to live on (which is the whole frigging point of HAVING a minimum wage)

It does not work like that in the USA. A minimum wage is not a living wage here.

 

[dawny0826]

Is it bad that my first thought was for the cows?
Tipping

If it's bad, you're in good company.

FH and I are good tippers, unless service is really bad. We tip at restaurants and we tip cosmetologists. We don't really go anywhere else where tipping is proper etiquette.

Oh yeah...we also tip our pizza and chinese delivery people. It's very rare that someone doesn't receive a tip from me of at least 20-25% of the bill and that's given as a gesture of "job well done" and with a blessing behind it. I've never tipped below 10% of the bill.

Regardless as to whether or not that base pay is minimum wage or far less, a tip is incentive, a gesture of appreciation and it translates to food on the table for the working individual. I really don't mind expressing gratitude for service in this way. It's a monetary frubal, people.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I believe most of the good tippers out there worked for tips themselves at one time.

 

[Caladan]

I believe most of the good tippers out there worked for tips themselves at one time.

I used to work for tips when I worked as a mover in London over a decade ago, it still doesn't change the fact that I consider much of the tipping system to be arbitrary. I just don't think certain services are worthy of tipping.
Like I said earlier, I tip because I realize that in some lines of work it is the economic lifeline of the employee, and of course because in places like restaurants it's what customary. Lets put it that way, I've never not given a tip, and hardly ever below 12%. The standard in Israel is 10-15%.
But I will definitely give movers a generous tip, much more so than I would give the pizza delivery guy.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I used to work for tips when I worked as a mover in London over a decade ago, it still doesn't change the fact that I consider much of the tipping system to be arbitrary. I just don't think certain services are worthy of tipping.
Like I said earlier, I tip because I realize that in some lines of work it is the economic lifeline of the employee, and of course because in places like restaurants it's what customary. Lets put it that way, I've never not given a tip, and hardly ever below 12%. The standard in Israel is 10-15%.
But I will definitely give movers a generous tip, much more so than I would give the pizza delivery guy.

I tip the pizza guy because I want my Pizza hot. Bring me a cold pizza and I might not even pay for the pizza let alone tip.

I tip 20-25% for exceptional service and 10% for basic service. I want to see people out there to still believe in the dream of success if you apply yourself.

Minimum wage is for entry level folks. If you have mastered your job, you should make a living wage. We all have to crawl before we walk and walk before we can run.

If your crawling you should at least make minimum wage. If you walk you should make a living wage and if you run, you should get ahead in life not just survive IMHO.

If my job way back when was scrubbing toilets, I made them shine. If I was mopping floors, I made them perfect. I intended to move up where ever I worked and you have to get noticed before you can be considered for advancement.

Dependable honest people are not that common any more and they should be rewarded lest they throw in the towel. No one wants an entry level job for life.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How is a commission sales job any different? Some people are born salesmen while other starve working in the industry.

Are a waiter's tips proportional to the amount he or she sells?

Does a waiter have the authority to negotiate price on behalf of the restaurant?

Is it part of a waiter's job to go out and bring in new customers?

Is there any other industry where the company publicly advertises an established price for a good or service, and the commissioned salesperson's salary is based on how much more above that established price he or she can get the customer to pay?

I believe most of the good tippers out there worked for tips themselves at one time.

I tip well, but the closest I ever came to "working for tips" was when I worked at an internet cafe that had a mug by the till that said "Coin for Karma" on it. Most people wouldn't tip. A good night was 5 or 6 bucks split three ways.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Are a waiter's tips proportional to the amount he or she sells?

Does a waiter have the authority to negotiate price on behalf of the restaurant?

Is it part of a waiter's job to go out and bring in new customers?

Is there any other industry where the company publicly advertises an established price for a good or service, and the commissioned salesperson's salary is based on how much more above that established price he or she can get the customer to pay?

You know Jeff, you missed my point. My point was not that service work and sales where exactly the same but that exceptional people excel when their income is not limited.

I tip well, but the closest I ever came to "working for tips" was when I worked at an internet cafe that had a mug by the till that said "Coin for Karma" on it. Most people wouldn't tip. A good night was 5 or 6 bucks split three ways.

That is sad, but my guess would be that the customers had very little money to tip with.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You know Jeff, you missed my point. My point was not that service work and sales where exactly the same but that exceptional people excel when their income is not limited.

But that gets handled (or should get handled) in any compensation arrangement.

Some employers pay straight salary but then give out end-of-year bonuses. Someone who gets paid straight salary will have their performance considered at increase time. Plenty of salespeople have "base salary plus commission" compensation. All of them have a mechanism to reward exceptional staff.

I think the biggest difference is that in any other arrangement, if a salesperson's compensation was based on the size of her breasts or whether he flirted with customers (two factors that have been mentioned in this thread), the employer would run the risk of a hefty lawsuit. Basing someone's salary on tipping lets employers get away with things that they'd never be able to get away with in any other arrangement.

That is sad, but my guess would be that the customers had very little money to tip with.

Yeah, I think that was part of it. Also, at least here, coffee shops tend to be treated the way I've been suggesting: tipping isn't considered mandatory.

And I think some of them weren't in the mood for tipping once we had kicked them out for looking at porn.

 

[dust1n]

It does not work like that in the USA. A minimum wage is not a living wage here.

Just to make sure everything is clear for everyone, advocating "banning tip" is the same thing as raising the minimum wage for servers.

 

[savagewind]

Just to make sure everything is clear for everyone, advocating "banning tip" is the same thing as raising the minimum wage for servers.

Oh I know. The minimum wage for the service industry where people make tips is lower than the minimum wage for other jobs. The minimum wage for other jobs is not a living wage. For a single person living with mom it is enough , even maybe plenty. For everyone else I think it is not enough for food and a place to live.

 

[dust1n]

Oh I know. The minimum wage for the service industry where people make tips is lower than the minimum wage for other jobs. The minimum wage for other jobs is not a living wage. For a single person living with mom it is enough it is plenty. For everyone else I think it is not enough for food and a place to live.

Ok, cool, I agree. Just wanted to make sure we'd be on the same page.