Should Tipping be Banned?

[Kilgore Trout]

Careful. Watch out for the "Cry me a river" response when it comes to life's woes as an artist.

 

[Alceste]

Growing up in abject poverty, I wouldn't be surprised at all actually.

Fair enough.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

With all do respect, while I respect your input on the subject (both of you). Then simply get a second income. That's what the majority of the archaeologists who work with me do. People don't get rich doing what I do, if you have a family, bills, or a mortgage very soon you find yourself working as a tour guide on your spare time as well, or doing things which are completely unrelated to the field.

Dan, waiting tables was my supplementary income to go with my income earned from dance. It was the only job in the area that had a flexible enough schedule to work around my class, rehearsal, and performance schedule. I could find lunch or dinner hours to go off what I was required to work in dance - whether it's 7am-12noon rehearsal times or performance at night.

Food service is the go-to industry for performance artists in this area, and from my understanding, in various places around the country. Either that or bartending, being a cocktail waittress, or stripping.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I can't wait to get my drink so I can throw it in your face. It'll be worth the delay in feeling tipsy.

 

[Alceste]

Careful. Watch out for the "Cry me a river" response when it comes to life's woes as an artist.

Yeah, they're just jealous. Every time I play somebody says wistfully "gosh I sure wish I could play an instrument. I never learned and now it's too late" or some such thing. I always tell them to get cracking. It only takes ten years to be good, and those years are going to pass by either way.

 

[Alceste]

I can't wait to get my drink so I can throw it in your face. It'll be worth the delay in feeling tipsy.

I've got drinks and I'm in a foul mood. I'll join you but first I've got to do some work around the house. Earning my keep.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I can't wait to get my drink so I can throw it in your face. It'll be worth the delay in feeling tipsy.

I'll always take a free drink. Don't expect a tip though.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I'll always take a free drink. Don't expect a tip though.

That's impressive to be able to drink through your nose and your eyes.

I don't want a tip. Just a picture or video of it happening.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

That's impressive to be able to drink through your nose and your eyes.

I'm multi-talented.

I don't want a tip. Just a picture or video of it happening.

Here's another tip: you should be a lot more specific before asking me to send you a video of "it happening."

 

[Caladan]

Where in any of our comments did you ever get the impression that we don't take second, third, fourth or fifth jobs as needed? The only reason I quit all my scheduled part time work is that it is false economy. Every hour I make $12-$15 at a second or third job is an hour I'm not making $40-$100 teaching or performing. So I'm focused on expanding my music revenue rather than getting another pointless part time job.

Dan, waiting tables was my supplementary income to go with my income earned from dance. It was the only job in the area that had a flexible enough schedule to work around my class, rehearsal, and performance schedule. I could find lunch or dinner hours to go off what I was required to work in dance - whether it's 7am-12noon rehearsal times or performance at night.

Food service is the go-to industry for performance artists in this area, and from my understanding, in various places around the country. Either that or bartending, being a cocktail waittress, or stripping.

Yes I got that, I didn't word my post good enough (busy doing two things at the same time). Anyway, I'm not sure how that factors the tips. The tip system would still be arbitrary, as some people with a second job aren't going to get tipped.

 

[Iti oj]

I hear you sister. We musicians get the same speech. When I need to supplement my income I get mindless, disposable jobs so I still have the focus and energy to do my actual life's work at the end of the day. Waiting tables would be a good option for me, except that I live in a very elderly population and old people are awful tippers. Especially old ladies. And I don't like handling strangers' dirty dishes. And I have plantar fasciitis.

As a youn man I disagree. Old ladies are the best tippers.

 

[savagewind]

Or performance artists trying to supplement their income. But you know, it's not as if performance artists aren't also told all the time to get a "real job", and not focusing on mastering their craft for your inspiration and entertainment. I guess the only jobs deserving of a living wage to survive just for showing up is finance or energy-related.

You know what? I'm ready for a drink since it's officially after noon right now. Anyone want to join me? I need to relax and laugh again.

People suck.

I love you

 

[Me Myself]

I quite like the tipping system we have in England. It's not compulsory and not necessarily expected (depending where you go) instead it's treated as a bonus or a thankyou to the staff. Rather than work out a percentage a lot of people just leave a few pounds in a tip jar or tell the staff they can keep the change.
Usually tips are gathered up at the end of the day and either split evenly between staff or put towards work nights out, Christmas parties and so on. The only real problem is some greedy employers keep the tips for themselves.

sounds like the reasonable way to go.

 

[dust1n]

5 Reasons we should ban tipping

What do you guys think? I don't like tipping simply because I feel really awkward doing it, and I never know what percentage I should be tipping for non-restaurant jobs. But that's probably not a good enough reason to abolish the practice of something.

I basically read the first 130 posts trying to get as much of an understanding as I can before making some points and am prepared to say 10k+ words on the issue... but I'll have to do it as the conversation moves cause I can't organize my thopughts on the subject as well as I wish I could.

I'm going to respond to multiple posts all at one time, so if this is all hard to follow from here, or is "tl;dr," don't be surprised. No one has to read or respond, nor do I expect anyone to even have the time to do it either.

Yes, it would drive down the incomes of competent waiters and waitresses and force some of them to take jobs in other industries.

Do you have a source for your claim (that it would drive down the incomes)? Evidence? Empirical comparisons? Or... were you just saying it without plans to elaborate further?

I still know several people in their 20's and 30's who wait tables, and all make very respectable incomes - often more than their counterparts in professional jobs. Of course, this is in the DC area, and they all work at mid to upscale restaurants, and all work their butts off. Also, I don't know how people deal with all the drama and BS that seems to permeate the working environment in every restaurant.

I didn't know where to throw this information in, so I guess would now be a good time to throw in my experience.

I've never waited tables, though I've bussed them and have delivered food, and have worked in at least ten restaurants in various capacities, one in which was the only five star in town, where the wait staff could stand to make a grand or more on a really busy weekend night. But that is the exception. DC is the highest yielding area for waiters in the country.

Waiters and waitresses, often referred to as servers, take orders from customers and serve them food and drink. Many servers earn less than the minimum hourly wage and rely almost exclusively on tips for customers. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, approximately 2,289,010 waiters and waitresses were employed in the United States as of May 2011.
National Wage Statistics

Because the rate of hourly pay earned by waitresses tends to fluctuate, all statistics reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics are averages. As of May 2011, the average of all hourly rates of pay for servers was $10.05, and the median wage reported was $8.93. Half of all waitresses reported average hourly wages of between $8.25 and $10.61. The lowest-paid 10 percent of servers earned an average of $7.73 per hour or less, while the highest-paid 10 percent of servers reported average hourly wages of $14.34 or more.
Pay by Employment Sector

As of May 2011, most waiters and waitresses were employed at full-service restaurants and earned an average of $9.93 per hour. Those working at limited-service restaurants reported an average hourly wage of $9.03, and those working at drinking establishments such as bars averaged $9.43 per hour. Waitresses employed at other amusement and recreation facilities averaged $10.81 per hour, and those employed at restaurants connected to hotels averaged $11.87 per hour.
Pay by Area

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, waiters and waitresses working in the District of Columbia earned an average hourly wage of $14.06, higher than those in any other state. Other high-paying states for servers included Washington, at $13.94; Massachusetts, at $13.27; Vermont, at $12.58; and Oregon, at $12.37. The highest-paying metropolitan area for servers was the Seattle-Bellevue-Everett area of Washington, with an average hourly wage of $14.87. Servers working in northern Vermont reported the highest average wage of any non-metropolitan area, $14.19 per hour.

Going back to Sunny, if I compare the average wage in Australia:

Waiter/Waitress Wages, Hourly Wage Rate | PayScale Australia

With the same info in America:

Waiters and Waitresses

It would seem the wages are nearly 30% higher, adjusted for dollar conversion...

I like tipping, if I have the money.

I see no reason why it should be banned, and the five listed reasons are hardly compelling. They basically boil down to: "I don't like tipping, so I don't want anyone else doing it, either."

In fact, they're pretty cheesy. The list looks as if it came from some high school English assignment.

My thought as well.

I'm simply amazed that this:

"Host Stephen Dubner interviews one of the country's experts on tipping, Cornell University professor Michael Lynn, who has written 51 academic papers on the subject.

In the podcast, Lynn was asked what he would do differently if he could go back in time and rewrite the social norms related to tipping. What would he change?

He said he would outlaw tipping completely. That's a surprising response from someone who has basically devoted his career to studying the practice. Some restaurants already do this. Dubner mentions The Linkery in San Diego, which bans tipping in favor of an 18% service charge for diners."

Could be claimed to be "boiled down" to "I don't like tipping..." on behalf of the writer, the podcaster, the professor....

but perhaps on the reader, I could see you guy's point. I guess it's easier to say when something looks like a high school report, via a response that amounts to a fraction of the piece critized, then actually address any of the five issues.

If tipping were banned it would make strip clubs really boring to go to. I mean, how else would we get their attention?

Personality, perhaps?

Pretty sure the point would be to increase the price of the food, and increase the wages paid. Right now, based on what I am reading, a waiter might be getting $2 an hour if they don't get tips.

I think it all works pretty well over here. Minimum wage for a full-time or permanent part time employee is $15.96 per hour. For casuals, it's $19.63.

Obviously, the hard numbers are of limited use, since it's a different economic environment.

And what's sad is how there is some conscious effort to make claims without evidence that the American tipping system is better or more empowering than yours, and that anyone who disagrees simply doesn't want to tip, even though the myriad of past restaurant worker's seem to agree with Australia, that some sort of elimination on tipping will mean a lower pay for workers and those who disagree seek that, when it's rather obvious this alternative system in Australia yields higher wages and probably higher prices at a restaurant as a result. So I wonder who is really trying to get out of "tipping"... those against the "tipping" or those not wanting to maybe make a system that ensures waiters actually make more...

But considering that this is a social issue, it shouldn't be dealt with by the law.

Huh? I don't understand this? What about, like, civil rights?

I wonder how many who are against tipping have done such kinds of jobs and know what they are like.

:Raises hand:

You can't live on minimum, dude. And, from what I've actually seen and experienced, the concerns expressed in the OP about discrimination against waiters and waitresses who lack the correct race, gender, or rack are grossly exaggerated.

Even if they are exaggerated, are they somehow illegitimate? If so, why?

 

[dust1n]

I have a mandatory tip that's 15% minimum when I go out to eat. No matter how "bad" the service might be (and seriously, I can count on two fingers the number of times I've actually had bad service).

Same... there is simply no way such thing as a service so bad that I'm somehow going to be determiner of who doesn't get to make a living wage. Everyone has terrible days at work where they don't as well as they might do on another day, but that doesn't mean the service is free.

Put a dollar amount on the work done, not the price of the meal. Tell us how much a server should make per table work.

More then whatever number you come up with per scenario.

I don't see what the big deal is. It never occurred to me that people could feel like tipping service staff was an unfair burden. If you don't want to pay for personal service, why eat out in the first place? Just microwave something.

It's an unfair burden on the waitstaff; not all of them know it, but here many do. If you don't wait to pay for the increased price of food due to overhead increases because tips can't be used to subsidize wages on behalf of the owner any longer, then why eat out in the first place?

I think the idea of expected and mandatory tipping is a natural sign of the sense of entitlement permeating the country, and a sign of how much employers look to take advantage of their employees.

I hate to agree with you in this case, but I think there is much true to this. And our generation is critized for feeling entitled to the best possible service that monetary exploitation can falsely provide irrespective of the person's life we are talking about; I sometimes wonder if some people even see "people" when they enteract with a waiter.

Excellent people deserve excellent compensation. All servers are not equal nor should they be paid the same.

If you want to park a mile from some place to save tip money, fine. I like being treated special and make it worth folks time to make my life more enjoyable.

I'd hate to be the one to break it to you, Rick, but you aren't being treated special. It's all a false perception presented to you so people can make a wage. That good service has nothing to do with you as a person at all. If buying people's wills and attention and affection makes life more enjoable for you, have at it; but the whole conception seems blatantly valueless...

Don't kid me. I'm old enough to know what employers do with salaries they have control over -- they cut them every chance they get. Your notion employers would pay anywhere near what a waiter can make in tips, if tips were eliminated, strikes me as profoundly naive.

And consumers differ from employers in regard to this, how, exactly?

I find it sad that you feel that you need to give them fat tips just to be recognized or feel worthy.

Same... it almost seems like, to me, tips in this circumstance seem to be a reason to know have to treat employees like people.

Like, "I can be as much as a douche and inconvenience in your life as I want, and instead of getting bad service as a result of it, I should be able to give you money instead."

I've got a tip for anybody who complains about not being able to make enough waiting tables.

Get a different job.

You're welcome.

Ah, another classic nugget of advice that is basically valueless to anyone needing it, though it appears to look like some sort of solution, or an attempt to make one.

It's not that easy. Waiting tables is one of the few ways young people with very little experience or education can earn a living wage.

And we should address that. In the 2000's, there is no reason young people should only be provided oppourtunities to work serving others and be constantly graded by their worth via how well they should serve food to others. Why is there a reason not to change this?

My daughter is in the service industry, she makes awesome money for a kid in college. She understands how the system works. Work in an upscale establishment and give people beyond what they are used to receiving other places.

I had to go back to this... certainly I should visit this resteraunt, so when your daughter comes, I can ignore all aspects on her, use derogatory language about her, and if she objects, speak with the manager and get her fired if my unwarranted sexual advances seem unbearable. I do enjoy the satisfaction of feeling special and I have the cash on hand, and demand the superior quality of the fullest and lavish consumer experience; if your daughter loses her job because she doesn't want to earn the money, she should find a new industry to work in. Nothing could make me feel more special and valued then using my cash as a replacement for human interaction and decency. Me being decent to your daughter as a person is simply not good enough.

finishing this up...

There are a few other considerations, including about 4 from the original list, that I can't even yet address. But perhaps I will be able soon in the future.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Ah, another classic nugget of advice that is basically valueless to anyone needing it, though it appears to look like some sort of solution, or an attempt to make one.

Not really into the whole "sense of humor" thing, eh?

 

[Alceste]

Yes I got that, I didn't word my post good enough (busy doing two things at the same time). Anyway, I'm not sure how that factors the tips. The tip system would still be arbitrary, as some people with a second job aren't going to get tipped.

No, but removing one possible way tipping people and artists can make a living wage doesn't really offer any benefit. It's not like we live in a world where pay is at all related to effort or the difficulty of a job. We pay caregivers and teachers next to nothing and pay bankers the moon and stars. Life is not fair. You'll drive yourself crazy worrying about fairness.

 

[dust1n]

Not really into the whole "sense of humor" thing, eh?

As much as I like sharp-pointed quips, it's difficult for more to discern to what extent you are being ironic by expressing a bad opinion or actually expressing your opinion, sometimes.

So with that, people can't just leave their jobs that easily. People should have to right to openly criticize any aspect of society, especially if they are engaged in it. Virtually everyone in the restaurant industry has far greater goals then just staying in the industry. At the five-star restaurant I was working at, where 40,000+ a year was plausible, everyone was taking care of families, reinvesting in their education, trying to got a job that's more fulfilling then serving the chronically ungrateful. The ones who weren't were stuck with drug use to help ease the suckiness of the labor involved.

I have a sense of humor, but I am bad at understanding some aspects of language in terms of the intentions behind the statement. When something is shrouded in campiness and irony, it's not always apparent what the ultimate point is at. So, clarification is always excepted, and I apologize if the way I communicated was too quick, or unsexy and unfun, or if I misunderstood you originally.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

As much as I like sharp-pointed quips, it's difficult for more to discern to what extent you are being ironic by expressing a bad opinion or actually expressing your opinion, sometimes.

So with that, people can't just leave their jobs that easily. People should have to right to openly criticize any aspect of society, especially if they are engaged in it. Virtually everyone in the restaurant industry has far greater goals then just staying in the industry. At the five-star restaurant I was working at, where 40,000+ a year was plausible, everyone was taking care of families, reinvesting in their education, trying to got a job that's more fulfilling then serving the chronically ungrateful. The ones who weren't were stuck with drug use to help ease the suckiness of the labor involved.

I have a sense of humor, but I am bad at understanding some aspects of language in terms of the intentions behind the statement. When something is shrouded in campiness and irony, it's not always apparent what the ultimate point is at. So, clarification is always excepted, and I apologize if the way I communicated was too quick, or unsexy and unfun, or if I misunderstood you originally.

You're always sexy.

 

[dust1n]

You're always sexy.

Well, meow! :blowkiss: