Should Transgender Athletes compete in sports?

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Remember Michael Jackson? He was Black. He went to a lot of trouble and expense to make his skin look light and his hair straight. He was still Black. A man can go to great expense to grow breasts and long hair, etc, but he is stil a man. He might feel better but nothing changed.

Sorry, I think that's somewhat silly. Black, so far as I am aware, is a colour, as is white. Now, I know of no humans at all who actually have black or white skin. Various shades from dark brown to a little bit pink, yes, but no true white or black. At the end of his life, MJ was a male (he kept that part the same, so far as I know), but his skin colour was definitely around the same shading as what we call a "white" person. His ancestry, his parents and brothers and sisters may all have brown skin, but MJ does not.

And really, to say that in the case of a person born with a penis and testicles, who now has breasts, long hair and a vagina (what plastic surgery can accomplish these days!) "nothing has changed" seems just a bit ludicrous. Lots has changed. Maybe not naturally, but changed none-the-less.

 

[Shiranui117]

Sorry, I think that's somewhat silly. Black, so far as I am aware, is a colour, as is white. Now, I know of no humans at all who actually have black or white skin. Various shades from dark brown to a little bit pink, yes, but no true white or black. At the end of his life, MJ was a male (he kept that part the same, so far as I know), but his skin colour was definitely around the same shading as what we call a "white" person. His ancestry, his parents and brothers and sisters may all have brown skin, but MJ does not.

And really, to say that in the case of a person born with a penis and testicles, who now has breasts, long hair and a vagina (what plastic surgery can accomplish these days!) "nothing has changed" seems just a bit ludicrous. Lots has changed. Maybe not naturally, but changed none-the-less.

Genetically and chromosomally, the person in question is still their birth sex. Their body may have been altered to better resemble the sex that the individual desires to be, and societally they may be treated as a member of that sex, but sex reassignment surgery doesn't fully make the transition. Anybody who goes through male or female puberty cannot reverse that process; all they can do is go through what is called a "second puberty" via hormone therapy which can imperfectly obscure their natural puberty and give them some secondary sex characteristics of the sex that they are transitioning to, but this can also cause some health problems, including muscular atrophy and bone problems, and probably a lot of other things I'm not aware of. A biological male is always a biological male, and a biological female is always a biological female. Our medical technology may be good, but it's not that good.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Genetically and chromosomally, the person in question is still their birth sex. Their body may have been altered to better resemble the sex that the individual desires to be, and societally they may be treated as a member of that sex, but sex reassignment surgery doesn't fully make the transition. Anybody who goes through male or female puberty cannot reverse that process; all they can do is go through what is called a "second puberty" via hormone therapy which can imperfectly obscure their natural puberty and give them some secondary sex characteristics of the sex that they are transitioning to, but this can also cause some health problems, including muscular atrophy and bone problems, and probably a lot of other things I'm not aware of. A biological male is always a biological male, and a biological female is always a biological female. Our medical technology may be good, but it's not that good.

Oh, really, Patrick? So you don't consider me a man, then? This is new information to me. If so, I have to reevaluate our friendship (i.e. end it).

As has been said before, a lot of those biological sex differences are maintained by hormones. Switch the hormones and you're changing the biology of someone since hormones are the "fuel" the body runs on. And surgery doesn't make you a man or a woman. You're that, regardless. It's just an outward manifestation of who you are. That's why a more accurate way of referring to it is "sex confirmation surgery". A second puberty is about as powerful as the first one.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Sorry, I think that's somewhat silly. Black, so far as I am aware, is a colour, as is white. Now, I know of no humans at all who actually have black or white skin. Various shades from dark brown to a little bit pink, yes, but no true white or black. At the end of his life, MJ was a male (he kept that part the same, so far as I know), but his skin colour was definitely around the same shading as what we call a "white" person. His ancestry, his parents and brothers and sisters may all have brown skin, but MJ does not.

And really, to say that in the case of a person born with a penis and testicles, who now has breasts, long hair and a vagina (what plastic surgery can accomplish these days!) "nothing has changed" seems just a bit ludicrous. Lots has changed. Maybe not naturally, but changed none-the-less.

A real vagina is a place for babies to be born. You can cut a hole in a man's body and cal it a vagina but it is not and he is still a man. You could also attach a tale but that would not make him a dog.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Oh, really, Patrick? So you don't consider me a man, then? This is new information to me. If so, I have to reevaluate our friendship (i.e. end it).

As has been said before, a lot of those biological sex differences are maintained by hormones. Switch the hormones and you're changing the biology of someone since hormones are the "fuel" the body runs on. And surgery doesn't make you a man or a woman. You're that, regardless. It's just an outward manifestation of who you are. That's why a more accurate way of referring to it is "sex confirmation surgery". A second puberty is about as powerful as the first one.

An "outward manifestation" of who you are is what you have at birth. Changing that only changes what you look like, does not change who you are.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Can you just imagine men who want to pretend to be women running around the women's dressing rooms or women who want to pretend to be men running around the men's dressing rooms?

Can you stop with the perversions? There is no evidence that such things happen and even still same sex locker rooms that stuff happens anyway.

Remember Michael Jackson? He was Black. He went to a lot of trouble and expense to make his skin look light and his hair straight.

What does this have to do with the subject at hand? There are theories behind it and unfortunately in the entertainment business he was in, having naturally black features may have been frowned upon and thus the issue of colorism he may have experienced. On the other hand there are others who say he suffered from vitiligo.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Why are you so obsessed with genitals?

That is the common denominator most bigoted people that are against trans or gays or what not tend to have a sexual fantasy about genitalia. Ever heard of this?

Founder of Gay Conversion Therapy says he is Gay

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

That is the common denominator most bigoted people that are against trans or gays or what not tend to have a sexual fantasy about genitalia. Ever heard of this?

Founder of Gay Conversion Therapy says he is Gay

Yeah, I fantasize about a well built, bearded guy with a shrunken penis from the hormones he takes.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Oh, boy. I'm sure this will be a fruitful thread. I do wish it was started by quoting medical professionals instead of far-right transphobic morons, though.

I've posted research and most people really don't understand research articles even when interpreted to them. In addition, do you honestly think it would make any difference if I posted scientific research it would change people's opinion? There are racially bigoted people here so I don't think somehow science is going to change anything. Besides, I posted a second article that was more left as well which is why I posted two sources. The crux of the issue regarding trans athletes is about fairness not about transsexuality.

Anyway, of course trans people should be allowed to compete in sports. They should compete in the sport of the gender they live as, as long as they are on hormone replacement therapy and it is in the normal range of their identified sex.

I agree with this

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Now, I know of no humans at all who actually have black or white skin.

Perhaps you need to get out and see the planet

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Yeah, I fantasize about a well built, bearded guy with a shrunken penis from the hormones he takes.

I said most bigoted people.....Now typically this linguistic trap I've set, would have caused you to say "hey I'm not bigoted and no, I don't think about genitals" so nice to know you don't deny being bigoted.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

An "outward manifestation" of who you are is what you have at birth.

Except when it isn't. I'm not sure why you continue to reply to me, aside from trolling.

Changing that only changes what you look like, does not change who you are.

I didn't say it did. I was always a guy and my body just reflects that fact more.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I said most bigoted people.....Now typically this linguistic trap I've set, would have caused you to say "hey I'm not bigoted and no, I don't think about genitals" so nice to know you don't deny being bigoted.

Sorry the "trap didn't work.You were supposed to say "who cares about shrunken penises?"

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Except when it isn't. I'm not sure why you continue to reply to me, aside from trolling.

I didn't say it did. I was always a guy and my body just reflects that fact more.

Well, you keep replying to me so maybe it is you who are trolling.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, you keep replying to me so maybe it is you who are trolling.

I'm not the one posting hateful blather all over this thread. What exactly are you hoping to accomplish here?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Sorry the "trap didn't work.You were supposed to say "who cares about shrunken penises?"

Who mentioned size though?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I'm not the one posting hateful blather all over this thread. What exactly are you hoping to accomplish here?

I do not hate anyone. I am giving my OPINION that gender is determined at birth by the type of sex organs one has. You obviously do not agree and I am very glad that you are happy with what you have done. There is nothing hateful in that but you seem to want to hate anyone who does not agree with your OPINION.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Who mentioned size though?

Seems like you are fantasizing. Does size matter?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I do not hate anyone. I am giving my OPINION that gender is determined at birth by the type of sex organs one has. You obviously do not agree and I am very glad that you are happy with what you have done. There is nothing hateful in that but you seem to want to hate anyone who does not agree with your OPINION.

Well, it's obviously an opinion, not fact as we know for sure that sex organs don't determine sex. Look at intersex people. They often have ambiguous sex organs. Even chromosomes aren't very helpful there.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I do not hate anyone.

Could've fooled me.