Should We Avoid Criticizing or Satirizing Minority Religious Doctrines?

[Katzpur]

As a Mormon, what do you think of the South Park Musical? Just out of curiosity?

I'm not sure if you're talking about the South Park TV episode on Mormonism or about the Book of Mormon musical. With respect to the TV episode, I was ok with it. I don't think it represented our believes very accurately, but it didn't seem to be done with any real ill-will. As for the Broadway musical, I haven't actually seen it. From what I've heard about it, though, I have a feeling I would be more offended by the language in it than by the fun poked at the Mormon missionaries.

Why do you think that Mormons have so much more self-control (maturity) when it comes to mockery of their faith?

That's hard to say. I'm going to have to give that one some thought. My first thought would be that we probably think we're going to gain the respect of more people by not behaving like a bunch of idiots. I think most of us realize that the more people actually know the facts about our history, doctrine and culture, the less critical they'll be. People will be more likely to want to learn the truth about us if we're able to behave like the followers of Jesus Christ we believe ourselves to be.

 

[gsa]

I hear the comparison you are making. But even in that were the case, do you see such a reaction occurring?
(Also, I didn't know that Lot was considered righteous by some people.)

Do I think that Jews would react like Muslims so often do? No.

I know that Christians consider him righteous, and Yahweh did spare him....

 

[gsa]

No I didn't. Why would you accuse me of that? I merely stated that Mormons are not an ethnoreligious group. I didn't comment on your other statement at all.

But in the US they are, at least in the same way that Muslims are.

 

[leibowde84]

I'm not sure if you're talking about the South Park TV episode on Mormonism or about the Book of Mormon musical. With respect to the TV episode, I was ok with it. I don't think it represented our believes very accurately, but it didn't seem to be done with any real ill-will. As for the Broadway musical, I haven't actually seen it. From what I've heard about it, though, I have a feeling I would be more offended by the language in it than by the fun poked at the Mormon missionaries.

That's hard to say. I'm going to have to give that one some thought. My first thought would be that we probably think we're going to gain the respect of more people by not behaving like a bunch of idiots. I think most of us realize that the more people actually know the facts about our history, doctrine and culture, the less critical they'll be. People will be more likely to want to learn the truth about us if we're able to behave like the followers of Jesus Christ we believe ourselves to be.

"My first thought would be that we probably think we're going to gain the respect of more people by not behaving like a bunch of idiots."

- Couldn't have said it better myself. And, btw, I was referring to the Broadway Musical, which I have seen. It is hilarious and fun, with great music and performances ... true to the Broadway Style. But, like the episode, it merely points out various funny aspects of Mormon Doctrine. It is obviously exaggerated though. For example, I have included the lyrics to the song "I believe", which shows some of the beliefs in the Mormon Tradition that seem pretty "wacky", a.k.a. unbelievable. Let me know what you think.

"I Believe" - from the Musical "The Book of Mormon"

ELDER PRICE
Ever since I was a child
I tried to be the best...
So what happened?
My family and friends all said I was blessed...
so what happened?

It was supposed to be all so exciting.
To be teaching of Christ across the sea.
But I allowed my faith to be shaken-
Oh, what's the matter with me?

I've always longed to help the needy.
To do the things I never dared.
This was the time for me to step up.
So then why was I so scared?

A warlord that shoots people in the face.
What's so scary about that?
I must trust that my Lord is mightier,
And always has my back.
Now I must completely devout
I can't have even one shred of doubt!

I believe-
That the Lord God created the universe.
I believe-
That he sent his only son to die for my sins.
And I believe-
That ancient Jews built boats and sailed
to America.
I am a Mormon.
And a Mormon just believes.

You cannot just believe part-way.
You have to believe in it all.
My problem was doubting
the Lord's will.
Instead of standing tall.
I can't allow myself to have any doubt.

It's time to set my worries free.
Time to show the world
What Elder Price is about.
And share the power inside of me!

I believe-
That God has a plan for all of us.
I believe-
That plan involves
Me getting my own planet.
And I believe
That the current President of the church,
Thomas Monson, speaks, directly to God.
I am a Mormon and, dang it,
A Mormon just believes.

CHORUS
A Mormon just believes.

ELDER PRICE
I know that I must go and do-
The things my God commands.

CHORUS
Things my God commands.

ELDER PRICE
I realize now why he sent me here!
If you ask the Lord in faith
He will always answer you just believe
In him and have no fear.

GUARD
(spoken) General! We have an intruder! He just walked right into camp!

ELDER PRICE
I believe!!!
That Satan has a hold of you.
I believe!
That the Lord God has sent me here!
And I believe that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people!!

CHORUS
Black People!!

ELDER PRICE
You can be a Mormon!
A Mormon who just believes.

GENERAL
(spoken) The **** is this?

ELDER PRICE
And now I can feel the excitement.
This is the moment I was born to do.
And I feel so incredible-
to be sharing my faith with you.
The scriptures say that if you ask in faith,
If you ask God himself you'll know.
But you must ask him without any doubt,
And let your spirit grow!

CHORUS
Let your spirit grow!

ELDER PRICE
I believe!
That God lives on a planet called Kolob!
I believe!
That Jesus has his own planet as well.
And I believe
That the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri.

If you believe,
The Lord will reveal it.
And you'll know it's all true-
You'll just feel it.

You'll be a Mormon!!!
And by gosh-
A Mormon just belieeeeeeeeves!!!!
Oh, I believe!
I believe!

CHORUS
Believe!

 

[Tumah]

Do I think that Jews would react like Muslims so often do? No.

Tha's what I'm saying. The reaction is disproportionate. If it were to happen to Jews, I'd expect a letter of condemnation from the ADL, and the SWC. Maybe some lobbying if it was really out of control. Why won't they condemn peacefully? And if they won't, why should the West bow to their lack of civility?

I know that Christians consider him righteous, and Yahweh did spare him....

I didn't know that. We just say that he had good "connections" in the form of Abraham and other individual merits, that are not relevant. But as a whole he himself wasn't the best guy out there. I mean, even if he was so drunk the first time that he couldn't control himself, what excuse did he have the second time?

 

[gsa]

"My first thought would be that we probably think we're going to gain the respect of more people by not behaving like a bunch of idiots."

- Couldn't have said it better myself. And, btw, I was referring to the Broadway Musical, which I have seen. It is hilarious and fun, with great music and performances ... true to the Broadway Style. But, like the episode, it merely points out various funny aspects of Mormon Doctrine. It is obviously exaggerated though. For example, I have included the lyrics to the song "I believe", which shows some of the beliefs in the Mormon Tradition that seem pretty "wacky", a.k.a. unbelievable. Let me know what you think.

"I Believe" - from the Musical "The Book of Mormon"

ELDER PRICE
Ever since I was a child
I tried to be the best...
So what happened?
My family and friends all said I was blessed...
so what happened?

It was supposed to be all so exciting.
To be teaching of Christ across the sea.
But I allowed my faith to be shaken-
Oh, what's the matter with me?

I've always longed to help the needy.
To do the things I never dared.
This was the time for me to step up.
So then why was I so scared?

A warlord that shoots people in the face.
What's so scary about that?
I must trust that my Lord is mightier,
And always has my back.
Now I must completely devout
I can't have even one shred of doubt!

I believe-
That the Lord God created the universe.
I believe-
That he sent his only son to die for my sins.
And I believe-
That ancient Jews built boats and sailed
to America.
I am a Mormon.
And a Mormon just believes.

You cannot just believe part-way.
You have to believe in it all.
My problem was doubting
the Lord's will.
Instead of standing tall.
I can't allow myself to have any doubt.

It's time to set my worries free.
Time to show the world
What Elder Price is about.
And share the power inside of me!

I believe-
That God has a plan for all of us.
I believe-
That plan involves
Me getting my own planet.
And I believe
That the current President of the church,
Thomas Monson, speaks, directly to God.
I am a Mormon and, dang it,
A Mormon just believes.

CHORUS
A Mormon just believes.

ELDER PRICE
I know that I must go and do-
The things my God commands.

CHORUS
Things my God commands.

ELDER PRICE
I realize now why he sent me here!
If you ask the Lord in faith
He will always answer you just believe
In him and have no fear.

GUARD
(spoken) General! We have an intruder! He just walked right into camp!

ELDER PRICE
I believe!!!
That Satan has a hold of you.
I believe!
That the Lord God has sent me here!
And I believe that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people!!

CHORUS
Black People!!

ELDER PRICE
You can be a Mormon!
A Mormon who just believes.

GENERAL
(spoken) The **** is this?

ELDER PRICE
And now I can feel the excitement.
This is the moment I was born to do.
And I feel so incredible-
to be sharing my faith with you.
The scriptures say that if you ask in faith,
If you ask God himself you'll know.
But you must ask him without any doubt,
And let your spirit grow!

CHORUS
Let your spirit grow!

ELDER PRICE
I believe!
That God lives on a planet called Kolob!
I believe!
That Jesus has his own planet as well.
And I believe
That the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri.

If you believe,
The Lord will reveal it.
And you'll know it's all true-
You'll just feel it.

You'll be a Mormon!!!
And by gosh-
A Mormon just belieeeeeeeeves!!!!
Oh, I believe!
I believe!

CHORUS
Believe!

The Book of Mormon the musical is hilarious. I am sure that they could write and produce an equally hilarious parody of Islam, but they would be living under threat of murder for the rest of their lives.

 

[gsa]

Tha's what I'm saying. The reaction is disproportionate. If it were to happen to Jews, I'd expect a letter of condemnation from the ADL, and the SWC. Maybe some lobbying if it was really out of control. Why won't they condemn peacefully? And if they won't, why should the West bow to their lack of civility?


I didn't know that. We just say that he had good "connections" in the form of Abraham and other individual merits, that are not relevant. But as a whole he himself wasn't the best guy out there. I mean, even if he was so drunk the first time that he couldn't control himself, what excuse did he have the second time?

We are agreed. Except, I suppose, on Lot; I think he was probably meant to be considered a righteous man by the authors. Much like reading Grimm's, it is best thought of as an encounter with an alien morality that makes the Taliban look advanced.

 

[Tumah]

We are agreed. Except, I suppose, on Lot; I think he was probably meant to be considered a righteous man by the authors. Much like reading Grimm's, it is best thought of as an encounter with an alien morality that makes the Taliban look advanced.

Really? I don't see anything there to cast him that way. He even gets into arguments with the main protagonist Abraham.
I guess I should go argue with some Christians to find out more about this.

 

[Sunstone]

The great satirist Trudeau has become an idiot.

 

[Katzpur]

"My first thought would be that we probably think we're going to gain the respect of more people by not behaving like a bunch of idiots."

- Couldn't have said it better myself. And, btw, I was referring to the Broadway Musical, which I have seen. It is hilarious and fun, with great music and performances ... true to the Broadway Style. But, like the episode, it merely points out various funny aspects of Mormon Doctrine. It is obviously exaggerated though. For example, I have included the lyrics to the song "I believe", which shows some of the beliefs in the Mormon Tradition that seem pretty "wacky", a.k.a. unbelievable. Let me know what you think.

Thanks for posting the words. They were quite a "revelation" to me. Here I have been a Mormon for 66 years and had no idea we believed some of those things. Okay, now in all seriousness, I would say that the statement that "a Mormon just believes" does apply to a lot of Mormons, particularly those of my generation who were born and raised in the Church. I'd say it's a lot less the case with respect to converts (which constitute about 2/3 of all Mormons today). I have personally talked to Mormon women I know who have said, "I've never really wondered whether it's true or not. My parents told me it was and I believed them. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me." That kind of attitude just makes me want to scream! I grew up being taught that it was okay to question and that doubting wasn't a sin. I was never, ever made to feel like I was a disappointment to God for wondering if certain things were true or not. I'm really grateful that my parents raised me the way they did, and overall, I really do believe that my religion has made me a better person.

As for the accuracy of the way the song expressed Mormon doctrines, well, I'll just say that they missed the mark. In a couple of instances, they missed the target entirely. I'm pretty much used to our doctrines being misrepresented, though. I'm not trying to play the victim here; it's just a fact. People think they know what we believe but they really don't. A lot of the "wacky" (aka unbelievable) things we supposedly believe really aren't beliefs at all. They're parodies and exaggerations that are presented as if they were accurate. People who really want to find out the truth about what we believe will make the effort to do so, though. As I said before, I'd probably see the show except that I've heard the profanity is just over the top. Wasn't there a song that was supposed to mean "F--- you, God!" in a native African language. I can take a certain amount of profanity, but "F--- you, God!" would pretty much cross the line for me.

 

[leibowde84]

Thanks for posting the words. They were quite a "revelation" to me. Here I have been a Mormon for 66 years and had no idea we believed some of those things. Okay, now in all seriousness, I would say that the statement that "a Mormon just believes" does apply to a lot of Mormons, particularly those of my generation who were born and raised in the Church. I'd say it's a lot less the case with respect to converts (which constitute about 2/3 of all Mormons today). I have personally talked to Mormon women I know who have said, "I've never really wondered whether it's true or not. My parents told me it was and I believed them. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me." That kind of attitude just makes me want to scream! I grew up being taught that it was okay to question and that doubting wasn't a sin. I was never, ever made to feel like I was a disappointment to God for wondering if certain things were true or not. I'm really grateful that my parents raised me the way they did, and overall, I really do believe that my religion has made me a better person.

As for the accuracy of the way the song expressed Mormon doctrines, well, I'll just say that they missed the mark. In a couple of instances, they missed the target entirely. I'm pretty much used to our doctrines being misrepresented, though. I'm not trying to play the victim here; it's just a fact. People think they know what we believe but they really don't. A lot of the "wacky" (aka unbelievable) things we supposedly believe really aren't beliefs at all. They're parodies and exaggerations that are presented as if they were accurate. People who really want to find out the truth about what we believe will make the effort to do so, though. As I said before, I'd probably see the show except that I've heard the profanity is just over the top. Wasn't there a song that was supposed to mean "F--- you, God!" in a native African language. I can take a certain amount of profanity, but "F--- you, God!" would pretty much cross the line for me.

Fair enough. Thanks for contributing. Just out of curiosity, do you believe that everyone gets their own planet and that God already is on the planet called Kronel or whatever?

 

[Katzpur]

Fair enough. Thanks for contributing. Just out of curiosity, do you believe that everyone gets their own planet and that God already is on the planet called Kronel or whatever?

The Bible refers to us (i.e. all of mankind) as God's offspring and to Him as the father of our spirits. If we are the spirit offspring of God, then we are more than merely His creations. We are His sons and daughters. I wouldn't say that makes us gods, but I would say that it gives us the potential to become like Him. A fully mature kitten becomes a cat. A puppy allowed to grow up becomes a dog. Sons and daughters of a divine Father have the potential to become like HIm. He has given us that potential and He wants us to attain it. That's our belief and there is some very compelling evidence that it was also widely believed during the first couple of centuries after Jesus Christ -- and I'm not talking about by heretical groups but by some of the early church's most respected leaders and scholars. As to getting our own planet, I'd say that's a definitely a non-Mormon spin on what it means to become godlike. It's definitely not something we'd ever hear taught in church.

About Kolob...
We believe that God lives in Heaven and that Heaven is a real place. There is an LDS volume of scripture called "The Pearl of Great Price." In that book, Kolob is mentioned as being the star closest of all the stars in the sky to the residence of God. There is no mention of where Kolob actually is. I realize that most of the world's Christians believe that God doesn't actually reside anywhere, but instead fills the universe. That, unfortunately is not what the Bible says. The Bible consistently refers to God as being "in Heaven" and Mormon doctrine is consistent with that. As I said earlier, I've been a Mormon all my life. Do you know how many times I've heard Kolob mentioned in a sermon or in classroom study in all those years? Exactly zero. Another Mormon might have heard it mentioned two or three times in that same period of time. That should make it pretty clear as to how important this belief in to our overall theology.

 

[Aquitaine]

Every ideology, doctrine and religion should be thoroughly open to scrutiny, criticism and ridicule.

If you're prohibited from ridiculing it, the next outcome will be that you're prohibited from criticizing it, then finally you'll be prohibited from even questioning it.

 

[Katzpur]

Every ideology, doctrine and religion should be thoroughly open to scrutiny, criticism and ridicule.

If you're prohibited from ridiculing it, the next outcome will be that you're prohibited from criticizing it, then finally you'll be prohibited from even questioning it.

I see legitimate criticism as having little in common with gratuitous ridicule.

 

[Aquitaine]

I see legitimate criticism as having little in common with gratuitous ridicule.

Ridicule is a part of criticism in my opinion.
When an ideology or belief system makes extraordinary and bizarre claims, it's perfectly acceptible to mock such things.
Do you believe, for example, that it is wrong to mock Scientology or Satanism?

 

[Katzpur]

Ridicule is a part of criticism in my opinion.
When an ideology or belief system makes extraordinary and bizarre claims, it's perfectly acceptible to mock such things.

For starters, I think you need to determine whether the belief system in question actually makes these claims or if it is just accused of making these claims by people who would like you to think their members are a bunch of nutjobs. After that, you have to ask yourself what makes you so special that you get to determine what's extraordinary and bizarre and what's completely rational. If you were an atheist, you'd say that a belief in any kind of a Higher Power is an "extraordinary and bizarre claim." If you were a Muslim, you'd say it's an "extraordinary and bizarre claim" to believe that God has a Son who was resurrected three days after being crucified. You go right ahead and mock anything you want to. Nobody's going to stop you on this forum, and you're obviously getting something positive out of doing it.

 

[Typist]

Ridicule is a part of criticism in my opinion.

Ridicule is not rational, as it accomplishes nothing beyond inflating the ego of the ridiculer and inspiring the target to harden their position. Which is why I probably shouldn't ridicule as much as I do myself.

Wait, wait, I could ridicule myself, that might work!

 

[Aquitaine]

For starters, I think you need to determine whether the belief system in question actually makes these claims or if it is just accused of making these claims by people who would like you to think their members are a bunch of nutjobs. After that, you have to ask yourself what makes you so special that you get to determine what's extraordinary and bizarre and what's completely rational. If you were an atheist, you'd say that a belief in any kind of a Higher Power is an "extraordinary and bizarre claim." If you were a Muslim, you'd say it's an "extraordinary and bizarre claim" to believe that God has a Son who was resurrected three days after being crucified. You go right ahead and mock anything you want to. Nobody's going to stop you on this forum, and you're obviously getting something positive out of doing it.

Nope, pretty sure that (for example) the Scientologists approaching me outside of their "shop" to give me a "Free Stress Test" with their magical technology are genuine Scientologists, and not outsiders looking to tarnish the reputation of their ideology.

Also, we each have our own personal standards as to what constitutes extraordinary and bizarre claims, as you pointed out.
However there is also collective scientific consensus that helps to objectively assess said claims, and as such have much greater weight to their conclusions.

If someone stubbornly continues to make baseless claims like the Earth being only 6000 years old, their claims are deemed bizarre on a scientific and (my own) personal level, and in my eyes are fair game for ridicule.

 

[Katzpur]

If someone stubbornly continues to make baseless claims like the Earth being only 6000 years old, their claims are deemed bizarre on a scientific and (my own) personal level, and in my eyes are fair game for ridicule.

Well, I can agree that claims like the earth being only 6000 years old are baseless. So far, though, my life has not been made worse by these beliefs. If someone wants to believe the Earth is only 6000 years old, I don't really care. But, like I said before, if it makes you happy to ridicule them, knock yourself out.

 

[Aquitaine]

Well, I can agree that claims like the earth being only 6000 years old are baseless. So far, though, my life has not been made worse by these beliefs. If someone wants to believe the Earth is only 6000 years old, I don't really care. But, like I said before, if it makes you happy to ridicule them, knock yourself out.

But the question I'm asking is should people have the right to ridicule them? Not just me, but society as a whole?

EDIT: Personally, I think yes. However, from your responses I'm getting the impression that your answer deep down is "no" - am I correct?