Should we fear Islam?

[Fatihah]

Cruelty in the Quran

1. Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6
2. Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10
3. A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24
4. Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90
5. "Guard yourselves against a day when no soul will in aught avail another, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be received from it, nor will they be helped."
   There will come a day when Allah will refuse all prayers and help no one. 2:48
6. Allah brags about drowning the Egyptian army. 2:50
7. "Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:81
8. If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85
9. Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96
10. For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104
11. For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114
12. "And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire." (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119

Response: So where's the cruelty? Not only that, but your making claims that the verses say things which it doesn't say. Perhaps rewarding wrong doing is your way. I guess when one steals or rapes, you reward them with tea. That is your business. But to those who are reasonable and rational will agree with islam, that in order to keep peace, wrong doing should actually be disciplined.

 

[LittleNipper]

:biglaughh deary me, what a wonderful day of jokes today is turning out to be

If one has nothing to say, it is best left unsaid. I find that the one's who cause wars are those who enjoy making fun of everyone but themselves.

 

[JMorris]

If one has nothing to say, it is best left unsaid.

then its a wonder you ever say anything at all

I find that the one's who cause wars are those who enjoy making fun of everyone but themselves.

i find your findings to be lacking. lets test your idea, go make a list of wars started by humorless religious fundamentalists, and compare that to a list of wars started by humored atheist/agnostics. im real interested in seeing how that turns out.

 

[eatingcannibal]

Response: Islam does earn it's own reputation, which is a religion peace, which is why it's called a religion of peace.

Equally Islam has earned earned a position that generates scrutiny, skepticism, and unfortunately -- both for peaceful Muslims and society at large -- fear. You said before, "There can be no solution to stop it, if islam is portrayed in a negative manner by the media." It isn't the position or the responsibility of the media to handle topics with kid gloves; reporters, journalists and so forth shouldn't alter the nature of stories or refrain from reporting them. Period. The common denominator of the 9/11 pilots absolutely was their Muslim faith, and as far as we can tell said faith is the hugely prevailing factor and only available commonality at which blaming fingers can be pointed. Why shouldn't suicide bombings, executions and fatwas be brought to our notice along with the religious doctrines from which they stem? There's no objectively valid reason to refrain. And is this to say that all Muslims are terrorists or evil, or whatever? Absolutely not. It is with great glee that I notice the apparent majority of Islam's adherents are seeking peace instead of violence, and so forth. All the same, news is news. Newscasters report what sells. We don't read about the social services of Hamas, nor will the L.A. Times ever host the headline 'Local street gangs give troubled youths a sense of belonging.' This is not how the news is done. Death and destruction that comes from very apparently Islamic ideologies are and should be billed as such in print and on newscasts.

 

[challupa]

Response: To the contrary, your analogy is not logical. Your analogy of World War II is asking the world to judge a people based on their actions, while your analogy of islam is judging an ideology based on people's actions. So they are not the same, and is a bad analogy.

So to judge an ideology based on people's actions is unreasonable. The fact that you would have to ask such a question is what you need to question. For how do you know if the behavior comes from the ideology without knowing what the ideology is? It is only reasonable to judge an ideology based on behavior if that behavior is the actual teaching of that ideology. You have not learned what the religion of islam is, so your judgement on behavior is very unreasonable. It would be as if I judged love based on abusive husbands. For many of them will tell you that despite their behavior, they do it out of love. So is it now reasonable to no longer love? Would you agree that love is not a good thing? No.Because his actions are not love. Love is defined as showing compassion to another. So if one behaves in a harmful way to another and say they do so out of love, you don't say that love is wrong, but rather there actions are not of love. Similarily, unless an extremist can show that islam teaches such extremism, then one should not attribute extremism to islam. That is the reasonable way to judge.

I am not embarrased by anyone's actions. I can only be embarrased of my own actions. Perhaps these are your brothers, since you tend to be so influenced by them. As for your taliban question, I did answer. My answer is I don't know the taliban, so I don't know what they will say.

Well it would seem to me that if people with an ideology predominately behavior in a particular manner, then that behavior is linked to the ideology. Our behavior invariably shows up in what we believe to be true. I recognize that not all Muslims are like the extremists, but they are interpreting the same quran as you are. Why is their interpretations so different from the peaceful ones? Is it because religious texts so often can be interpreted any way you want to justify an agenda?

 

[Fatihah]

Equally Islam has earned earned a position that generates scrutiny, skepticism, and unfortunately -- both for peaceful Muslims and society at large -- fear. You said before, "There can be no solution to stop it, if islam is portrayed in a negative manner by the media." It isn't the position or the responsibility of the media to handle topics with kid gloves; reporters, journalists and so forth shouldn't alter the nature of stories or refrain from reporting them. Period. The common denominator of the 9/11 pilots absolutely was their Muslim faith, and as far as we can tell said faith is the hugely prevailing factor and only available commonality at which blaming fingers can be pointed. Why shouldn't suicide bombings, executions and fatwas be brought to our notice along with the religious doctrines from which they stem? There's no objectively valid reason to refrain. And is this to say that all Muslims are terrorists or evil, or whatever? Absolutely not. It is with great glee that I notice the apparent majority of Islam's adherents are seeking peace instead of violence, and so forth. All the same, news is news. Newscasters report what sells. We don't read about the social services of Hamas, nor will the L.A. Times ever host the headline 'Local street gangs give troubled youths a sense of belonging.' This is not how the news is done. Death and destruction that comes from very apparently Islamic ideologies are and should be billed as such in print and on newscasts.

Response: No one says that such extreme acts should not be reported in the media. What I say is that the media portrays islam in a negative manner and does not help the problem, when the vast majority of reports are negative, and ignore the much positive examples of behavior by muslims throughout the world.

 

[Skeptisch]

But to those who are reasonable and rational will agree with islam, that in order to keep peace, wrong doing should actually be disciplined.

1. "This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil)."</I> There is no doubt about this or any other "Scripture". It is false. It wasn't revealed by God and it won't "ward off evil." 2:2
   
2. "Shall we believe as the foolish believe?"
   According to the Quran, the answer is, yes. To be truly wise you must believe whatever the foolish believe. 2:13
3. "If Allah willed, He could destroy their hearing and their sight. Lo! Allah is able to do all things." 2:20
4. And He taught Adam all the names."
   Allah taught Adam all the names of the plants and animals, which must have taken a while since there are 1.7 million species that are known today, with probably another 10 million or so that are yet to be discovered. And this only includes those that are alive today. If extinct species are included (~99%), then Allah must have taught Adam a billion or so names. 2:31
5. "And if ye are in doubt ... then produce a surah of the like thereof."
   If you doubt that the truth of the Quran, then try making some stuff up and see how it compares. (Whatever you come up with will be better than the Quran.) 2:23
6. Allah commands the angels to worship Adam. They all do, except for Iblis, who becomes a disbeliever. 2:34
7. Allah struck Moses with lightening and then revived him just so that Moses would thank him for it! 2:55-56
8. Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews at the time of Moses because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. But what prophets could they have killed and what revelations could they have rejected? Most of the prophets and revelations came later, didn't they? 2:61
9. Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66
10. "Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is."
    A load of silly bull **** about a yellow cow. 2:67-71
11. To settle a murder mystery, Allah brought a murder victim back to life by hitting his dead body with a piece of the yellow cow. The risen man then identified his murderer! 2:72-3
12. Allah makes a man "die" for 100 years, and then brings him back to life. 2:259
13. To show how he gives life to the dead, Allah tells Abraham to cut up the bodies of four birds, scatter their remains on four hills, and then call to them. Allah says that the dead birds will come quickly to Abraham. 2:260

 

[Fatihah]

Well it would seem to me that if people with an ideology predominately behavior in a particular manner, then that behavior is linked to the ideology. Our behavior invariably shows up in what we believe to be true. I recognize that not all Muslims are like the extremists, but they are interpreting the same quran as you are. Why is their interpretations so different from the peaceful ones? Is it because religious texts so often can be interpreted any way you want to justify an agenda?

Response: Linking behavior to an ideology, and saying that the ideology teahes that behavior is two different things. Linking extremism to islam is understandable, if one constantly says that they behave in such a way because of islam. But to say that islam teahes the behavior is unreasonable.

There is no teaching in islam which teaches these acts. That is simply a fact. Their interpretations are different because they purposely do so to fit their agenda. Here in the US, their is a religious group called the nation of islam, which preaches that islam teaches thar all white people are devils. There is nothing in the qur'an which remotely suggest such a thing. Yet they claim, that it is islam. Why? Because it suits their agenda to organize black people to seek revenge on the white race for their slavery. This is why there are many interpretations. Because they want to use them for their certain agenda. But this does not prove, nor is any if the extreme interpretations the actual teaching of islam.

 

[Fatihah]

1. "This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil)."</I> There is no doubt about this or any other "Scripture". It is false. It wasn't revealed by God and it won't "ward off evil." 2:2
   
2. "Shall we believe as the foolish believe?"
   According to the Quran, the answer is, yes. To be truly wise you must believe whatever the foolish believe. 2:13
3. "If Allah willed, He could destroy their hearing and their sight. Lo! Allah is able to do all things." 2:20
4. And He taught Adam all the names."
   Allah taught Adam all the names of the plants and animals, which must have taken a while since there are 1.7 million species that are known today, with probably another 10 million or so that are yet to be discovered. And this only includes those that are alive today. If extinct species are included (~99%), then Allah must have taught Adam a billion or so names. 2:31
5. "And if ye are in doubt ... then produce a surah of the like thereof."
   If you doubt that the truth of the Quran, then try making some stuff up and see how it compares. (Whatever you come up with will be better than the Quran.) 2:23
6. Allah commands the angels to worship Adam. They all do, except for Iblis, who becomes a disbeliever. 2:34
7. Allah struck Moses with lightening and then revived him just so that Moses would thank him for it! 2:55-56
8. Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews at the time of Moses because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. But what prophets could they have killed and what revelations could they have rejected? Most of the prophets and revelations came later, didn't they? 2:61
9. Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66
10. "Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is."
    A load of silly bull **** about a yellow cow. 2:67-71
11. To settle a murder mystery, Allah brought a murder victim back to life by hitting his dead body with a piece of the yellow cow. The risen man then identified his murderer! 2:72-3
12. Allah makes a man "die" for 100 years, and then brings him back to life. 2:259
13. To show how he gives life to the dead, Allah tells Abraham to cut up the bodies of four birds, scatter their remains on four hills, and then call to them. Allah says that the dead birds will come quickly to Abraham. 2:260

Response: In other words, since you can not find any cruelty in the qur'an, you've opted to interpolate and fabricate it, to make it seem so.

Due realize, that such acts is only a reflection of your bad character, and harms islam in no manner. You may now proceed and continue in displaying your true colors.

 

[challupa]

Response: Linking behavior to an ideology, and saying that the ideology teahes that behavior is two different things. Linking extremism to islam is understandable, if one constantly says that they behave in such a way because of islam. But to say that islam teahes the behavior is unreasonable.

There is no teaching in islam which teaches these acts. That is simply a fact. Their interpretations are different because they purposely do so to fit their agenda. Here in the US, their is a religious group called the nation of islam, which preaches that islam teaches thar all white people are devils. There is nothing in the qur'an which remotely suggest such a thing. Yet they claim, that it is islam. Why? Because it suits their agenda to organize black people to seek revenge on the white race for their slavery. This is why there are many interpretations. Because they want to use them for their certain agenda. But this does not prove, nor is any if the extreme interpretations the actual teaching of islam.

I agree with that Fatihah. I realize that it is also very hard for peaceful Christians, Muslims etc. when some of their "members" misinterpret for their own agendas and benefits. But I think those of us that do want peaceful relations between all groups of humanity need to speak out and start doing something. It's not just religious groups that have subgroups within their ranks that do this. The secular world also has subgroups that are anything but peaceful. They have their own set of justifications for aggressive violent behavior. How to stop it, I'm not sure. But I think it's time all peace loving people stand up to those that are corrupting and giving a bad name to the religions we are affiliated with. Do you think this needs to happen?

 

[eatingcannibal]

Response: No one says that such extreme acts should not be reported in the media. What I say is that the media portrays islam in a negative manner and does not help the problem, when the vast majority of reports are negative, and ignore the much positive examples of behavior by muslims throughout the world.

Negative acts and destructive behavior by definition result in news broadcasts with negative connotations to them, do they not? Further, painfully again, it is not the job of the media to fix problems. Sincerely, should topical issues be avoided, or should random and irrelevant acts of charity be overly highlighted, in order that Muslims can "feel good about themselves" or any other babyish nonsense along those lines? Should the L.A. Times in fact report on the positives of gang membership? This is not how the news works.

 

[Fatihah]

I agree with that Fatihah. I realize that it is also very hard for peaceful Christians, Muslims etc. when some of their "members" misinterpret for their own agendas and benefits. But I think those of us that do want peaceful relations between all groups of humanity need to speak out and start doing something. It's not just religious groups that have subgroups within their ranks that do this. The secular world also has subgroups that are anything but peaceful. They have their own set of justifications for aggressive violent behavior. How to stop it, I'm not sure. But I think it's time all peace loving people stand up to those that are corrupting and giving a bad name to the religions we are affiliated with. Do you think this needs to happen?

Response: Yes, I agree. When peace is threatened, we all should stand together against the threat. No matter the religion. No matter the race. It becomes a problem in which all of humanity should come together and stand against.

 

[Fatihah]

Negative acts and destructive behavior by definition result in news broadcasts with negative connotations to them, do they not? Further, painfully again, it is not the job of the media to fix problems. Sincerely, should topical issues be avoided, or should random and irrelevant acts of charity be overly highlighted, in order that Muslims can "feel good about themselves" or any other babyish nonsense along those lines? Should the L.A. Times in fact report on the positives of gang membership? This is not how the news works.

Response: When one believes that it is not thd job of the media to fix problems, like yourself, then it is those who share responsibility for peace not existing, not islam. For anyone who advocates peace would agree, that the responsibility to maintain peace is on every human, including those in control of the media.

 

[Caladan]

So that's why I ask my question... should we be concerned about this battle between these opposing groups to define Islam... because of what it might mean to the rest of us?

And if so, what can we do about it?

'what can we do about it?'
Strengthen the moderates. strenghten economic channels with moderate Islamic societies, for example, Indonesia the largest Muslim nation has opened channels with the west and keeps political and economic cooperation with western nations.
strengthen the middle class in middle eastern nations, and invest in business opportunities. while a rising middle class is more interested in business, people pushed into poverty are more attracted to radicalism.
keep the Islamic world integrated into the global economy.

 

[sonofskeptish]

So Fatihah, I ask again... are the Taliban muslims?

 

[eatingcannibal]

Response: When one believes that it is not thd job of the media to fix problems, like yourself, then it is those who share responsibility for peace not existing, not islam. For anyone who advocates peace would agree, that the responsibility to maintain peace is on every human, including those in control of the media.

It is the job of the media to present the goings on of the world to us objectively, in order that political standpoints, problematic ideologies, etc, etc can be recognized and reacted to appropriately. The media is responsible for peace as much as any other person or group, sure. It's the media's job to present to us problems about the world in which we live, and by drawing attention to problems they will necessarily draw an opposition to them. In this way, it can accurately be stated that the media upholds peace.

On what basis should problems related to fundamentally Islamic ideologies be avoided by the media? You've yet to even make an effort to answer this.

 

[Caladan]

Should we fear Islam?

I do not see a reason to fear Islam as a whole. I can certainly observe certain movements within Islam with concern, but 'Islam' as an umbrella phenomenon is composed of too many elements to generalize into one phenomenon that we should isolate. for example by the same reasoning, many Muslims have many valid reasons to fear the 'west', but the west like 'Islam' is made up of different nations, different movements and different politics.
many Muslims live their life just like we do, they are interested in prospering, and they are interested in living in a society which is economically stable. I believe that a stable economy with a solid middle class will also give rise to more interaction between east and west via business opportunities and shared interest.
remember, people of opposing views pushing each other's buttons on an internet forum is not an indication of the way we could have otherwise gotten along in everyday conditions and a different set.

 

[JMorris]

It is the job of the media to present the goings on of the world to us objectively, in order that political standpoints, problematic ideologies, etc, etc can be recognized and reacted to appropriately. The media is responsible for peace as much as any other person or group, sure. It's the media's job to present to us problems about the world in which we live, and by drawing attention to problems they will necessarily draw an opposition to them. In this way, it can accurately be stated that the media upholds peace.

On what basis should problems related to fundamentally Islamic ideologies be avoided by the media? You've yet to even make an effort to answer this.

your new, so ill fill you in on something in case you want to avoid wasting time & sanity.
fatihah dosent even attempt to answer questions, much less put any effort into them. and he certainly dosent consider any opposing point of view.
just thought you might want to know.

 

[David69]

The evil manipulators are pushing towards the end times! and its sad that the good people turn a blind eye to it. The evil manipulators of Religion will fall! All my lambs recognise the wolves in sheeps clothing and dont follow them and they will be gone.

 

[eatingcannibal]

your new, so ill fill you in on something in case you want to avoid wasting time & sanity.
fatihah dosent even attempt to answer questions, much less put any effort into them. and he certainly dosent consider any opposing point of view.
just thought you might want to know.

Much appreciated