Should Women be Held Accountable for Men's Sexual Feelings?

[Blackmarch]

Christian Blogger Swears Off Leggings in Order to Honor God

Should women be held accountable for men's sexual feelings? Why or why not?

only accountable to whatever steps they do to try to influence such. People are accountable for their own actions.

 

[gsa]

The man takes the blame for his feelings and acting on them.

Nevertheless, we should care about what other people think. Yes, really. I'm not talking about this from some self-esteem perspective, but the Christian perspective is that we should not do anything that will cause our brother or sister to sin. Christians are one body, one Church, and they should all know what it is like to struggle with sin. In the case of clothing, it is kinder to the weaker gentlemen-folk of the Church when a woman decides to dress more modestly.

Should this not apply to males as well? For example, if Christians are enjoying a swim, shouldn't the men wear modest clothing that covers up any muscles, that stirs lust in the hearts of women and maybe even other males struggling with celibacy? Why don't we hear Christians talking about this?

When a woman goes to church, it's even more important to dress modestly. This is because all attention should be focussed on God, the glory is to be given to God, not on something a woman is (or is not) wearing.

This apply to men as well? Wear humble, inexpensive, non-flashy clothing? No expensive wrist watches, shoes or suits? No form fitting pants or shirts?

Now, should any of this be put into law? No, of course not, but this is the conduct of a Christian. I understand in our modern society it's all about me me me, I get to wear whatever I want because it makes me feel comfortable, but Christianity is a faith about selflessness and serving others, and with something as serious as sin we are called to be mindful of our weaker brothers and sisters. If I waved a beer bottle in the face of a recovering alcoholic, it would be pretty inconsiderate, and the same goes for how Christian women dress.

Should you refrain from having a glass of wine because a fellow Christian is an alcoholic? And is that equivalent to waving a beer bottle in their face? Seems hyperbolic to me.

What, you're forcing your morality on me, on my choice, just because you are too weak to handle it? If you're a Christian, then yes I am, modest dress has been instructed from the earliest times and we are one Body, this is what Christians do, we look out for each other. Paul said he would not eat meat again if it would cause a weaker brother to stumble.

He also said that rich believers invited to posh Corinthian dinner parties could eat meat consecrated to idols. Say, how far should this be taken? What if married Christians having sex causes celibate Christians to "weaken" as you say? Shouldn't they be willing to abstain from sex and expressions of intimacy?

Deliberately dressing provocatively is wrong too of course in the Christian faith, and one does question why a woman would want to dress immodestly at all. I guess I can understand the "feel comfortable" thing, but then my earlier point stands on causing brothers to stumble. It brings unwanted attention, and if that attention is wanted, then that isn't the way to pursue it.

Guess the "sisters in Christ" aren't worthy of this consideration. And for some reason, you assume that women who are wearing clothing you deem "provocative" are doing it with an intent to provoke sexual lust in the hearts of men, Christian or otherwise. I think that's unlikely.

 

[savagewind]

I do not understand something. I look at bodies because they are beautiful. I am not sexually stimulated by beautiful though. Are people confusing appreciation with sexual stimulation?

 

[Robert.Evans]

No.

Change the equation slightly and see if it makes more sense with different inputs:

Q. - Should little children be held accountable for the sexual feelings of catholic priests?

...

I'm going to assert that it doesn't make sense to hold Party A accountable for the "sexual feelings" of Party B.

Isn't it akin to blaming heavy metal music for teenage suicide?

Bit over the top I think. And not really in tune with reality.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Christian Blogger Swears Off Leggings in Order to Honor God

Should women be held accountable for men's sexual feelings? Why or why not?

caveat:
I only read part of the article as it took to long to load.

I think her actions are very noble, very thoughtful and considerate to others, and in my opinion, right.

 

[Akivah]

Should women be held accountable for men's sexual feelings? Why or why not?

The article didn't flow to its conclusion. The article focused on the Veronica's choice to dress modestly and somehow reached the conclusion that her choice controlled other people.

Was it possible my wearing leggings could cause a man, other than my husband, to think lustfully about my body?

This type of question is problematic because it saddles women, in this case Veronica herself, with the responsibility for controlling another person’s thoughts, in a fashion that we would never apply to other scenarios.

Obviously, a woman wearing bright skimpy clothing will attract more attention than wearing a dull looking full dress. But equally a man wearing a speedo to a job interview will attract more attention than a man wearing a suit and tie.

The issue is not about "controlling", rather it is about "influencing". And I disagree that our thoughts are not influenced by what we see in any other scenario. Factors such as the clothes someone wears, the accent that someone speaks, a person's way that they walk, or any other of hundreds of other characteristics will all influence how a person views the subject.

But no matter how a person presents themselves, it is the person that sees them that is in control of their own thoughts and actions. No one can rightfully claim that another person's appearance drove them to commit an action.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Agreed. No one should feel pressured or compelled to change their dress in order to avoid the sexual hang ups of men (or women, but mostly men) who cannot control themselves.

Does that include opinion, actions etc, or just dress? And do you think mens opinions are influenced by the fact they largely want to see it anyway?

 

[Robert.Evans]

No. No. No no no no NO.

If I'm turned on by looking at a woman, that's MY sexual preference making itself known to me. She is not responsible at all.

It's not just women that gets saddle with this kind of internalized modesty culture. It's girls too. And it assumes how perverse men are.

Part of our requirements when students enter our higher tuition programs is that they wear clothing that is either snug or midriff showing. A basic leotard and tights combination is sufficient to see a students line for better coaching of their alignment and strength and balance. But booty shorts, bra tops, crop tops, leggings, are also acceptable.

The reasoning is always offered, but it's still amazing how some persnickety parents will say that I want the girls to look like whores.

Because, according to them, there might be grown men in an audience. Who will think impure thoughts if they see a teen girls body.

I mean, you can't make this stuff up.

I don't understand any of that. You are basically saying women should wear what they want, is that it? I am not surprised you would though. Hard to imagine you saying, No cover up! haha

 

[Robert.Evans]

If only we all took more of our early childhood lessons to heart, the world would be a better place.

But isn't one of our early lessons: ''Who started it?'' and is that not to do with provocation?

 

[gsa]

Does that include opinion, actions etc, or just dress? And do you think mens opinions are influenced by the fact they largely want to see it anyway?

All of it. People can take responsibility for themselves.

 

[Robert.Evans]

If I waved a beer bottle in the face of a recovering alcoholic, it would be pretty inconsiderate

That is a good point

 

[Robert.Evans]

So if a Christian woman, for example, wears a singlet because it's summer and she does not wish to get sunstroke or heatstroke or any other ill effects one can get from the summer sun and over exposure to heat (and clothing does make a lot of difference in this regard.) And this "revealing" attire happens to cause another man to stumble, she was being inconsiderate to her Brother in Christ? Is she supposed to then take into account that a random man "may" stumble, dress more modestly and risk overheating or perhaps a fainting spell, depending on her health concerns? Or is there like an out that excuses you when health comes into play?

To digress, I wonder if this is a concern amongst Nudist Colonies? Or nude beaches?

I think loose cotton fabric is cooling in the summer and covers well. That would seem to answer it, don't you think, madam.

 

[Robert.Evans]

All of it. People can take responsibility for themselves.

So you do not think there is any provocation that should make anyone do anything that is wrong.... I mean, I'm talking about the real world here.

 

[gsa]

So you do not think there is any provocation that should make anyone do anything that is wrong.... I mean, I'm talking about the real world here.

Any provocation? We're talking about women dressing "modestly" or "immodestly" in this thread, not about anything that anyone ever says, does, thinks, feels, expresses, etc. I'm not going to discuss the entire universe of human behavior.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Should this not apply to males as well? For example, if Christians are enjoying a swim, shouldn't the men wear modest clothing that covers up any muscles, that stirs lust in the hearts of women and maybe even other males struggling with celibacy? Why don't we hear Christians talking about this?

You're right, men must also be considerate of their sisters in Christ. Back in the old days men would wear swimsuits, in our current society it's now trunks. There are Christian men however who do wear shirts when they go swimming, it does go both ways. I am not entirely sure on the topic myself, swimming is a tricky one, as baggy clothing is going to hinder you.

We don't hear about it much on the men side for two reasons I will put forward.
1) Men in general struggle more with lust than women do. This is not a denial that women struggle with lust, of course many do, but from both biological evidence and actual surveys men do seem to have to deal with it more. (This is not a valid reason for men to dress immodestly).
2) Men do not dress in the same way that women do. If the majority of men regularly wore short short shorts on a summer's day I would be surprised if the Christian community did not have a similar reaction. The only occasion is really with swimming where men don't wear much, or a hot summer's day. I would say to the latter that a man should dress modestly.

I do agree that many if not most Christians are more shocked by a woman dressing immodestly than a man, and really it should go both ways. There are just practical reasons for this though, men don't have the problem of cleavage or the general trend for women to wear more form-hugging bottoms as opposed to men.

This apply to men as well? Wear humble, inexpensive, non-flashy clothing? No expensive wrist watches, shoes or suits? No form fitting pants or shirts?

I would agree with dressing modestly. On the expensive clothing, there is also the idea of wearing your "Sunday best". If it is done out of true intention to glorify God, that is more than acceptable, it is much more of a heart issue, whether you want to honour God or honour yourself.

Should you refrain from having a glass of wine because a fellow Christian is an alcoholic? And is that equivalent to waving a beer bottle in their face? Seems hyperbolic to me.

If a fellow Christian is an alcoholic then yes I would refrain from drinking in front of them.

He also said that rich believers invited to posh Corinthian dinner parties could eat meat consecrated to idols. Say, how far should this be taken? What if married Christians having sex causes celibate Christians to "weaken" as you say? Shouldn't they be willing to abstain from sex and expressions of intimacy?

Paul also said that if it would cause a brother to stumble, one should not eat meat consecrated to idols.

On married Christians, well they shouldn't be having sex in front of anyone.

In front of a Christian who is celibate yes one must be considerate and understand the things that person is struggling with, there isn't any need for some overt expression of intimacy in front of them.

Guess the "sisters in Christ" aren't worthy of this consideration. And for some reason, you assume that women who are wearing clothing you deem "provocative" are doing it with an intent to provoke sexual lust in the hearts of men, Christian or otherwise. I think that's unlikely.

The sisters in Christ are worthy of this consideration, you're right.
And I haven't assumed that, I am questioning as to why they would want to. Perhaps it is not specifically to provoke lust (though sometimes it may be), but many do do it for attention.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't understand any of that. You are basically saying women should wear what they want, is that it? I am not surprised you would though. Hard to imagine you saying, No cover up! haha

Women and men should wear what they want.

In my business, wearing snug clothing with bare midriff helps dance instructors and coaches like myself determine the correction needed in alignment. In performance, line that is presented to an audience shows part of dance performance in the athleticism involved. It's a part of the aesthetics.

I do respect students and parents who individually wish to be more modest in their own dress and dance wear.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I don't understand any of that. You are basically saying women should wear what they want, is that it? I am not surprised you would though. Hard to imagine you saying, No cover up! haha

Women should be able to wear what they want, be it a leotard, T-shirt, or niqab. No man or woman has the right to interfere with such a personal freedom just because their beliefs disagree with it.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I do not understand something. I look at bodies because they are beautiful. I am not sexually stimulated by beautiful though. Are people confusing appreciation with sexual stimulation?

I respect this, people should be appreciated for their beauty, in fact it reveals God's glory in His Creation.

This doesn't have to be done by immodest dress though, which can stimulate other desires in weaker brothers and sisters.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The man takes the blame for his feelings and acting on them.

Nevertheless, we should care about what other people think. Yes, really. I'm not talking about this from some self-esteem perspective, but the Christian perspective is that we should not do anything that will cause our brother or sister to sin. Christians are one body, one Church, and they should all know what it is like to struggle with sin. In the case of clothing, it is kinder to the weaker gentlemen-folk of the Church when a woman decides to dress more modestly.

When a woman goes to church, it's even more important to dress modestly. This is because all attention should be focussed on God, the glory is to be given to God, not on something a woman is (or is not) wearing.

Now, should any of this be put into law? No, of course not, but this is the conduct of a Christian. I understand in our modern society it's all about me me me, I get to wear whatever I want because it makes me feel comfortable, but Christianity is a faith about selflessness and serving others, and with something as serious as sin we are called to be mindful of our weaker brothers and sisters. If I waved a beer bottle in the face of a recovering alcoholic, it would be pretty inconsiderate, and the same goes for how Christian women dress.

What, you're forcing your morality on me, on my choice, just because you are too weak to handle it? If you're a Christian, then yes I am, modest dress has been instructed from the earliest times and we are one Body, this is what Christians do, we look out for each other. Paul said he would not eat meat again if it would cause a weaker brother to stumble.

Deliberately dressing provocatively is wrong too of course in the Christian faith, and one does question why a woman would want to dress immodestly at all. I guess I can understand the "feel comfortable" thing, but then my earlier point stands on causing brothers to stumble. It brings unwanted attention, and if that attention is wanted, then that isn't the way to pursue it.

What do men do when they "stumble", in accordance to your hypothetical?

How do you validate your comparison of waving a beer around in front of a recovering alcoholic to a woman showing skin in front of a man? Are you suggesting men are themselves comparable to recovering alcoholics when it comes to lust?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I respect this, people should be appreciated for their beauty, in fact it reveals God's glory in His Creation.

This doesn't have to be done by immodest dress though, which can stimulate other desires in weaker brothers and sisters.

What do you think constitutes "immodest dress"?