Should you believe the trinity doctrine?

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

The Hindus believe God can take millions of forms, three is not such a large number.

 

[savagewind]

The Hindus believe God can take millions of forms, three is not such a large number.

But is it true that not all Hindu gods are of the same mind? Do they not clash? Clashing causes conflict which causes wars which are bad for Earth.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

But is it true that not all Hindu gods are of the same mind? Do they not clash? Clashing causes conflict which causes wars which are bad for Earth.

Namaste,

Sorry to intrude, but this is not entirely correct, IMO, no Hindu "Gods" had wars where Human believers of God A went to war with Believers of God B at the command of their respective God, any recorded wars in Hindu texts where Gods are Involved take place outside the realm of our reality and are mostly considered psychological/metaphorical, such as wars in swarga or kailash, even if one considers these as literal places there is no Human involvement. The Wars in Mahabharatta and Ramayana was for the establishment of Dharmah over Adharmah, where Vishnu took Avatar for the protection of Dharmah not for the protection or propagation of a particular religion or in support of a group of people. Vishnu is considered unlimited in his power, so he can take Avatar on earth when there is a rise of Adharmah to establish Dharmah.

Generally in Hinduism the Devas have not gone to war with each other but rather against the Asuras, and not all of these wars/battles were considered as bad for earth, but some were considered necessary to re-instate Dharmah among the Humans which in the long run is better for us. There could be and are many stories in Hinduism where there is great calamity on earth because of what a particular Devata/Devi does, but that is why they are worshiped, because they have the power to cause harm as well and not to cause harm.

If our "Gods", were at war with each other, we would not be here.

I was not going to comment on the OP, but since i intruded ill put my opinion on the issue, I am a Hindu and don't believe in the trinity doctrine, and don't consider the Avatars in Hinduism as having any relation to the idea of the trinity.

Dhanyavad

 

[JoStories]

No, sir. It was directly inspired by the Holy Spirit sent from God. Therefore it is 100% accurate and reliable.

Those who do not believe in God or spirits cannot accept this, of course.

That is fine, if that is what you believe but there are many posters here who don't believe it and we have as much right to our opinions are you do sir. Until you can prove it was written by God, all you have is supposition. And its far from 100% accurate. I am not a sir.

 

[JoStories]

I will not argue with you about it. Taken together, all scripture, especially NT scripture, clearly points to the trinity as quite factual.

If you do not see it that way then believe as you will but I think you are wrong.

If you won't argue but this point, or any other to do with what you believe, why are you on a debate forum? We have the right to challenge you. If you don't wish to debate, perhaps another venue would work for you. Either way, you will be challenged here.

 

[JoStories]

No I got plenty more.
But your mistaken gods nature does have limits.
God cannot be tempted
God cannot lie
God cannot be unjust
God cannot be weak
God cannot be unloving
God cannot be unwise
God cannot be irrational

I would strongly disagree with you. I feel that those limits you list here are limits imposed by humans. IMO, God has no limits at all but many faiths, including yours it seems, place limits on God because to consider the notion of a truly limitless God would be too difficult. It would mean that God does allow suffering for Its own reasons. It would mean that God can be unjust and unloving. All of these labels are labels that are only applicable to humans. God, IMO, has no limits such as these.

 

[JoStories]

Actually they did not teach the Trinity.Some who learned from the Apostles went on to corrupt the teachings and begin their own sects, that had traditional teachings, not of the holy scriptures.Paul spoke of this.It was clear some were to come and try to hide the truth.

1 John 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

1 John 2:18
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

The notion of the trinity was 'borrowed' from a couple of older faiths, IMO, including Egyptian. The Story of Osiris, Horus, and Isis is a very clear parallel to the trinity you have today. Paulian dogma has only misshapen Christianity, IMO. Those that follow Paul are almost exclusively Paulian and that dogma does not follow what Christ taught. How does the notion of the anti-Christ prove a trinical concept?

 

[savagewind]

Namaste,

Sorry to intrude, but this is not entirely correct, IMO, no Hindu "Gods" had wars where Human believers of God A went to war with Believers of God B at the command of their respective God, any recorded wars in Hindu texts where Gods are Involved take place outside the realm of our reality and are mostly considered psychological/metaphorical, such as wars in swarga or kailash, even if one considers these as literal places there is no Human involvement. The Wars in Mahabharatta and Ramayana was for the establishment of Dharmah over Adharmah, where Vishnu took Avatar for the protection of Dharmah not for the protection or propagation of a particular religion or in support of a group of people. Vishnu is considered unlimited in his power, so he can take Avatar on earth when there is a rise of Adharmah to establish Dharmah.

Generally in Hinduism the Devas have not gone to war with each other but rather against the Asuras, and not all of these wars/battles were considered as bad for earth, but some were considered necessary to re-instate Dharmah among the Humans which in the long run is better for us. There could be and are many stories in Hinduism where there is great calamity on earth because of what a particular Devata/Devi does, but that is why they are worshiped, because they have the power to cause harm as well and not to cause harm.

If our "Gods", were at war with each other, we would not be here.

I was not going to comment on the OP, but since i intruded ill put my opinion on the issue, I am a Hindu and don't believe in the trinity doctrine, and don't consider the Avatars in Hinduism as having any relation to the idea of the trinity.

Dhanyavad

But It isn't about the gods going to war or the people going to war for the gods. It is about what conflict might do on the elementary level of the human brain. A quarrel isn't war but leads to it I suppose. What if all the minds of humankind are linked? Then getting the mind ready for the conflict of the gods or power which gods are* would be a very bad thing perhaps. Do you know that all minds are not linked somehow? I don't.

*Are they not?

 

[First Baseman]

If you won't argue but this point, or any other to do with what you believe, why are you on a debate forum? We have the right to challenge you. If you don't wish to debate, perhaps another venue would work for you. Either way, you will be challenged here.

That's fine. I do not enjoy arguing, but I do enjoy discussion.

 

[Shiranui117]

Actually they did not teach the Trinity.Some who learned from the Apostles went on to corrupt the teachings and begin their own sects, that had traditional teachings, not of the holy scriptures.Paul spoke of this.It was clear some were to come and try to hide the truth.

So you deny 1 Timothy 3:15, which states that the Church is the foundation and pillar of the truth? Do you say that the Holy Spirit failed to guide the Church, as Jesus promised in John 14 and 16? Do you believe, contrary to Jesus' promise, that He abandoned His Church, or allowed the gates of Hades to prevail against it?

If it was impossible to defend the Trinity from Scripture, then Trinitarians would have never gotten off the ground, and the Catholic, Orthodox and Assyrian Churches would be Arian or Sabellian. As it is, even the Arians say that Jesus is a god, but merely a lesser god than God.

1 John 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

1 John 2:18
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

Throwing these Scriptures out against whoever disagrees with you is academically dishonest. If you want to use these, then prove that these verses were written in opposition, with scholarly support from a historical perspective. Otherwise you're just tossing out Bible verses that contribute nothing to the discussion.

We Trinitarians acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Christ. I don't know if I can say the same for those who deny His Divinity.

 

[Nada]

So you deny 1 Timothy 3:15, which states that the Church is the foundation and pillar of the truth? Do you say that the Holy Spirit failed to guide the Church, as Jesus promised in John 14 and 16? Do you believe, contrary to Jesus' promise, that He abandoned His Church, or allowed the gates of Hades to prevail against it?

If it was impossible to defend the Trinity from Scripture, then Trinitarians would have never gotten off the ground, and the Catholic, Orthodox and Assyrian Churches would be Arian or Sabellian. As it is, even the Arians say that Jesus is a god, but merely a lesser god than God.


Throwing these Scriptures out against whoever disagrees with you is academically dishonest. If you want to use these, then prove that these verses were written in opposition, with scholarly support from a historical perspective. Otherwise you're just tossing out Bible verses that contribute nothing to the discussion.

We Trinitarians acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Christ. I don't know if I can say the same for those who deny His Divinity.

Your assumptions about what I said and what I mean are all wrong.You are entitled to your own opinion, even if it is incorrect.As far as the holy scriptures are concerned,many do not even have a clue as to what it really says, or means.Many do not study thoroughly.

Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone,not Peter,like many assume.Peter was an apostle of Jesus Christ,like the others.The foundation is made up of faithful followers of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Many think that this means building a literal church building.Not true.Church actually refers to the people.The congregations of followers.This can be verified in the HS.

Romans 16:5 New International Version
Greet also the church that meets at their house. Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.

How is a literal building going to fit in a house? When people do some through research they will come to find out that church really means the assembly,congregation of true christians.

Now, the church,or true congregation of God, were those who preached the same as Jesus.Those who preached their own interpretations were anti Christ.The true teachings were perverted and traditional practices took over.It became a christianity mixed with pagan customs.Many sects rose up and the true slowly got swallowed up.

1 John 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.


Those who want truth can go to the original Hebrew,Aramaic and Koine Greek scriptures to see what the holy scriptures is really saying.The literal church that sits over in Rome is not a representative of Jesus, or God the Almighty.They represent Christendom.It is "christianity" mixed with pagan customs.Sun worship.Customs dating back to the ancient babylonian days.Involvement in wars and politics of this world is not something Jesus taught.This world belongs to Satan the devil.That is why Satan tempted Jesus Christ with all the Kingdoms of the world.Because they were Satan's to give.Satan is the god of this world.

2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.


So, those who are part of this world, are not part of God's organization of faithful followers.They do not join wars or vote for political figures of this world.We know that you know who in Rome was at the U.N. condoning air strikes against the recent bad guys in the Middle East.Representatives of God do not condone wars.

God has a government and God will issue it in when the end of this wicked system of things comes to an end,according to the holy scriptures.It speaks about this in the book of Daniel.God's government is seen as a rock smashing the feet of the statue representing the world powers to come.

Daniel 2:34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them.

This is referring to the last standing government when the end comes.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

"savagewind, post: 4420715, member: 38566"

Namaste,

Thanks for the reply,

But It isn't about the gods going to war or the people going to war for the gods. It is about what conflict might do on the elementary level of the human brain. A quarrel isn't war but leads to it I suppose. What if all the minds of humankind are linked? Then getting the mind ready for the conflict of the gods or power which gods are* would be a very bad thing perhaps. Do you know that all minds are not linked somehow? I don't.

*Are they not?

Well this is a valid observation, but Hindus in general are guided by our most basic, highest and prime Dharmah, which are Satya (loosely, Truth and Honesty in deeds and thought) and Ahimsa (roughly, not being the cause of harm, Non harming or minimum harm, non violence in general), even the stories of the Devas/Devis are viewed from this perspective, so many of these quarrels/wars/battles are judged keeping in mind the highest Dharmah in context.

The question about minds being linked depends on what you mean by the word Mind, if i take it to mean the Hindu concept of "Manas", then our "Mann" in not linked to each other, as we are independent thinking beings and use our own judgement regarding everything, even the quarrels/wars/battles ect of the Deva/Devi. Hindus have the freedom to have a open minded approach to these dilemmas.

Dhanyavad

 

[Shiranui117]

Your assumptions about what I said and what I mean are all wrong.You are entitled to your own opinion, even if it is incorrect.As far as the holy scriptures are concerned,many do not even have a clue as to what it really says, or means.Many do not study thoroughly.

Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone,not Peter,like many assume.Peter was an apostle of Jesus Christ,like the others.The foundation is made up of faithful followers of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Many think that this means building a literal church building.Not true.Church actually refers to the people.The congregations of followers.This can be verified in the HS.

Romans 16:5 New International Version
Greet also the church that meets at their house. Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.

How is a literal building going to fit in a house? When people do some through research they will come to find out that church really means the assembly,congregation of true christians.

And none of this conflicts with anything in Catholicism, or Orthodoxy, or the Assyrian Church of the East.

Now, the church,or true congregation of God, were those who preached the same as Jesus.Those who preached their own interpretations were anti Christ.The true teachings were perverted and traditional practices took over.It became a christianity mixed with pagan customs.Many sects rose up and the true slowly got swallowed up.

1 John 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

And what is the truth? Whatever some random people in 1800's America decided it was? Why would God wait nearly two thousand years to re-establish the Truth? Why would He let the true Faith be dead for 1800 years while heresy and falsehood ran rampant? He would not. Grace and truth come from Jesus Christ (John 1:17), and He has vowed to never leave us. (Matthew 28:20)

Moreover, you cannot name me one single verse in the entire Bible which states that the Church will fall away. Some will fall away, but you have absolutely nothing Scriptural to prove that the entirety of the Church will fall away. Heretics will come, but they will depart from us, because they are not of us.

1 John 2: Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number. 20 But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth.

Again I ask, do you deny 1 Timothy 3:15, which states that the Church is the foundation and pillar of the truth? Do you say that the Holy Spirit failed to guide the Church, as Jesus promised in John 14 and 16? Do you believe, contrary to Jesus' promise, that He abandoned His Church, or allowed the gates of Hades to prevail against it?

Those who want truth can go to the original Hebrew,Aramaic and Koine Greek scriptures to see what the holy scriptures is really saying.The literal church that sits over in Rome is not a representative of Jesus, or God the Almighty.They represent Christendom.It is "christianity" mixed with pagan customs.Sun worship.Customs dating back to the ancient babylonian days.Involvement in wars and politics of this world is not something Jesus taught.This world belongs to Satan the devil.That is why Satan tempted Jesus Christ with all the Kingdoms of the world.Because they were Satan's to give.Satan is the god of this world.

There is no sun worship in Catholicism, nor do you have any credible proof that there is. The Bible does, however, speak of God as being the Sun of Righteousness.

Malachi 4:2
But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings

2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

Do you think Satan blinded those who do believe, too?

So, those who are part of this world, are not part of God's organization of faithful followers.They do not join wars or vote for political figures of this world.We know that you know who in Rome was at the U.N. condoning air strikes against the recent bad guys in the Middle East.Representatives of God do not condone wars.

Pope Francis never condoned air strikes. He spoke emphatically against violence. War is always tragic and sinful, yes. Would you leave the people of the Middle East defenseless against the genocidal horrors of ISIS? Would you rather be held accountable to God for saying that ISIS needs to be stopped, or would you rather answer for standing by, saying and doing absolutely nothing to stop millions of people being slaughtered by barbarians?

 

[savagewind]

Namaste,

Thanks for the reply,



Well this is a valid observation, but Hindus in general are guided by our most basic, highest and prime Dharmah, which are Satya (loosely, Truth and Honesty in deeds and thought) and Ahimsa (roughly, not being the cause of harm, Non harming or minimum harm, non violence in general), even the stories of the Devas/Devis are viewed from this perspective, so many of these quarrels/wars/battles are judged keeping in mind the highest Dharmah in context.

The question about minds being linked depends on what you mean by the word Mind, if i take it to mean the Hindu concept of "Manas", then our "Mann" in not linked to each other, as we are independent thinking beings and use our own judgement regarding everything, even the quarrels/wars/battles ect of the Deva/Devi. Hindus have the freedom to have a open minded approach to these dilemmas.

Dhanyavad

Not manas but citta.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Not manas but citta.

Namaste,

Then i would have to say I don't know. I have not realized this yet.

PS: I am a Hindu, and in no way does the quarrels/wars/battles in Hindu texts have any effect on my mind, it is more the ethical values taught that are registered in my mind, not the violence portrayed.
Dhanyavad

 

[BenTheBeliever]

I personally have read the scriptures and I just cannot read the trinity in the bible. why should we believe it?

I do think it is important to believe in it.

 

[BenTheBeliever]

Matthew 28:19

 

[Muffled]

"Scripture contains neither the word Trinity, nor an expressly formulated doctrine of the Trinity. Rather, according to the Christian theology, it "bears witness to" the activity of a God who can only be understood in trinitarian terms. The doctrine did not take its definitive shape until late in the fourth century. During the intervening period, various tentative solutions, some more and some less satisfactory were proposed. Trinitarianism contrasts with nontrinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity in two persons, or two deities), Unitarianism (one deity in one person, analogous to Jewish interpretation of the Shema and Muslim belief in Tawhid), Oneness Pentecostalism or Modalism (one deity manifested in three separate aspects)."
Source: Wikipedia


The nature of god (its trinitarian form) only came out of much debate and was voted into being in 381 AD at the Council of Constantinople.

"The council adopted a statement that translates into English as, in part: “We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages . . . And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets . . .” The statement also affirmed belief “in one holy, catholic [meaning in this context universal, whole or complete] and apostolic Church . . .”

With this declaration in 381, which would become known as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, the Trinity as generally understood today became the official belief and teaching concerning the nature of God."
source​

All of which indicates that if the vote had gone the other way Muffled wouldn't be believing in the trinity.​

I believe I appreciate the efforts of the council to come up with good theology. There is enogh bad theology around as it is. There are some churches that follow the Athanasian creed which terms "God in three persons." I have evolved to the point where I can understand what they are saying by this but by the commonly known definitions of person it isn't true.

 

[Muffled]

ok so for one this scripture does not make sense if jesus is god.
for example Luke 18:18,19 someone calls jesus good teacher and jesus at this point according to Trinitarians is both god and man. while being both god and man jesus says why do you call "me" good no one is good but god clearly separating himself from being god.
ephesians 1:17 the god of our lord jesus christ
John 20:17 to your god and my god
revelation 3:12 jesus speaking: I will make him a pillar in the temple of "my god"
1 Corinthians 8:6 one god the father
1 Corinthians 11:3 the head of the Christ is god
1 Corinthians 15:23-27 god subjected all things to the christ
ephesians 4:5,6 the father is greater than all in all

I believe you have not heard the answer to this because you are new. Jesus calls Himself "Good" as in the good shepherd. Also I believe Jesus is not saying that He isn't good but is asking the man if by calling him good he understands that he is calling him God.

I beleive God is His own God.

I believe this does not eliminate the other members of the Trinity.

This is a misquote and a misinterpretation. There is one God who is greater than all. I would grant the unity of the Father with God just as I would grant it to the Son but the concepts are not "all."

 

[Muffled]

not to change the subject but Jesus said He spoke in parables so everyone would NOT understand. only certain people were given the ability to see His meaning

I believe it is great to have someone new to give a new perspective.

I believe speaking in parables was done for the crowd but Jesus spoke plainly to the Apostles. I believe in responding to the Pharisees Jesus used theology, scripture and logic because they were learned men.