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Signs of Holy Spirit guidance in Christians?

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
So one agrees that it was devil's work what sinful Paul envisioned on road to Damascus or simply Paul faked the vision, right?
If that is the case, so must it be of the Pauline-Christianity people who follow Paul, they envision Devil but are under illusion that they are talking to some holy spirit, right?

Regards

Let us hearken to the Lord .. for clues on the identity of the great deceiver .. Who will show up not with Horns - red cape and a tail... but, as a member of the Cloth

"15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. "

And what of this Pauline Fruit ? contradicting the words of Jesus .. usurping the position of the Logos .. doing an end run around Judgement .. selling "Get into heaven Free Pass" --- no need to worry about Judgement for evil deeds .. do as much evil as you like .. and when you are old and tired .. call out "Jesus Jesus" and all will be forgiven !

But -- that is not what our Christ say now is it in the next sentence following previous

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


and what about the fruit of these Pauline Adherents .. Mr. Sola Fide himself .. Martin Luther .. proud Author of the famous treatise "On the Jews and Their Lies" .. arguing for the persecution, expulsion and killing of the God's Chosen People..

Jesus tells us he has come only for the Lost Sheep of Israel .. those the Evil Demon wants to persecute and Kill .. this is the tree that needs be thrown into the fire !
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The 'Holy Spirit', an important aspect of the Trinity in Christianity, is often believed to be the personal presence of God actively working in the lives of Christians. Christians often appear to seek guidance from the Holy Spirit to lead them on the right path and discern God's will for their lives.

John 16:13 (New International Version)
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; He will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

This verse highlights the Holy Spirit's role as a guide for Christians, inspiring a question: Are there any discernible signs in the world that demonstrate the Holy Spirit's guidance in Christians today?

How would one distinguish between a Christian with the Holy Spirit, and a Christian whom, for some reason, doesn't have the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
If someone is a Christian, he automatically has the Holy Spirit.

Just because you have the Holy Spirit, imv, doesn't translate that you are responding to His guidance. He guides everyone but we don't necessarily respond to His leading.

Certainly, from John 16:13, we can know if the Christian is listening by whether or not truth is actually being shared because He leads us into all truth.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
If someone is a Christian, he automatically has the Holy Spirit.
I have known many, many Christians in my life, and I've seen no evidence that Christians have anything that others do not have, or that they are qualitatively different than other groups in any way.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I have known many, many Christians in my life, and I've seen no evidence that Christians have anything that others do not have, or that they are qualitatively different than other groups in any way.

That is understandable from a viewers perspective. Did you ask them if they had changed after encountering Jesus as Lord having received the Holy Spirit?
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
That is understandable from a viewers perspective. Did you ask them if they had changed after encountering Jesus as Lord having received the Holy Spirit?
I have heard many Christian "testimonies." I have also heard similar stories of people whose lives were changed by other religions. Again, I have not found anything that sets Christians apart.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Let us hearken to the Lord .. for clues on the identity of the great deceiver .. Who will show up not with Horns - red cape and a tail... but, as a member of the Cloth

"15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. "

And what of this Pauline Fruit ? contradicting the words of Jesus .. usurping the position of the Logos .. doing an end run around Judgement .. selling "Get into heaven Free Pass" --- no need to worry about Judgement for evil deeds .. do as much evil as you like .. and when you are old and tired .. call out "Jesus Jesus" and all will be forgiven !

But -- that is not what our Christ say now is it in the next sentence following previous

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


and what about the fruit of these Pauline Adherents .. Mr. Sola Fide himself .. Martin Luther .. proud Author of the famous treatise "On the Jews and Their Lies" .. arguing for the persecution, expulsion and killing of the God's Chosen People..

Jesus tells us he has come only for the Lost Sheep of Israel .. those the Evil Demon wants to persecute and Kill .. this is the tree that needs be thrown into the fire !
Truly said, I agree with one.

Regards
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I'm sure you understand that a person can suffer from seizures and still be sane and articulate.
Yes but temporal lobe epilepsy is often associated with psychiatric comorbidity and emotional dysregulation (i.e. anxiety, depression, and interictal dysphoria).

Granted, TLE sufferers can also have a tendency toward intense religiosity, strong emotions, detailed thoughts, and a compulsion to write or draw.

But in the round, I do not think Paul fits that psychological profile. His Damascus experience was not a pattern that seems to have recurred (i.e. he does not describe any other such episodes in his letters apart from an oblique reference to an out of body experience (OBE) which is again not TLE but mystical). Rather, his experience aligns far more with that of the the “mystical experience questionnaire” (MEQ):

(1) sense of unity or oneness, (2) transcendence of time and space, (3) deeply felt positive mood, (4) sense of awesomeness, reverence and wonder, (5) meaningfulness of psychological or philosophical insight, (6) ineffability and paradoxicality (7) an oceanic feeling of boundlessness (8) ego dissolution (Pahnke and Richards, 1966; Pahnke et al., 1970)

A mystical experience is not a seizure or sign of a psychiatric disorder.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
His Damascus experience was not a pattern that seems to have recurred
He claimed to get his teachings directly from Jesus, a man who was dead and not there to talk to him.

Look, if you want to have faith in Paul, that's entirely your prerogative. For me, there are simply much simpler explanations than that he was channeling Jesus.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
He claimed to get his teachings directly from Jesus, a man who was dead and not there to talk to him.

Look, if you want to have faith in Paul, that's entirely your prerogative. For me, there are simply much simpler explanations than that he was channeling Jesus.

There are no Pauline scholars of note, whom I am aware of, that would endorse your contention that everything Paul tells us about Jesus came out of his own head from revelations.

We now know with relative certitude, based upon ample textual studies that in Corinthians, Galatians and Philippians he references pre-Pauline hymns and creedal statements. The famous statement: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28), has for now long been regarded by most scholars as a pre-Pauline baptismal formula. In other words, he didn't actually 'come up' with that profound insight - he simply inherited it from the Jerusalem church and was referencing what, by then in the 50s CE, was a common aphorism among the nascent communities of Jesus-believers used in their rituals.

Paul refers to his conversations with people who knew Jesus directly, including his brother James, the apostles Peter, John and others. He lived with the apostle Peter (Cephas) for fifteen days and we know that they were close enough to have engaged in a very heated argument that Paul boasted about many years after the fact. In both Galatians 1:18-9 and 1 Corinthians 9:5 the “brothers of the Lord” are mentioned.

Paul tells us he received the tradition (paredōka = “I delivered”; parelabon = “I received”), of Christ’s death on a Roman cross and burial. He reiterates this in 1 Corinthians 2:2, Galatians 3:1, 2 Corinthians 13:4, and many more occasions. He didn't derive this from a "revelation" but from the same synoptic tradition we find in the gospels.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 Paul tells us that he received the tradition that Jesus had a last supper with his disciples before dying, quotes his alleged words ("this is my body...blood...do this in memory of me") and then notes that he was betrayed by one of his disciples. Again, no personal revelation involved here - just a historical memory distributed in the early movement that formed part of the verbal tradition that was eventually written down in Mark's gospel.

1 Corinthians 15:3-8 Paul tells us that Jesus had a core of inner disciples called "the Twelve". Again, no revelation involved here - just an allusion to another verbal tradition.

Romans 1:3 Paul tells us that in "his earthly life [Jesus] was a descendant of David". That is, he tells us about Jesus's flesh and blood ancestry (this could only have come from a family tradition i.e. "do you know, our family is supposedly descended from King David").

1 Thessalonians. 2:14–15 Paul tells us that Jewish leaders participated in the killing of Jesus, again that's a reflection of the synoptic tradition of the trial before the Jewish elders.

Then we have quotations of Jesus's teachings in Paul's epistles. In answering the Corinthians' questions about marriage, Paul cites Jesus' ruling on divorce as binding on his followers. "To the married I say, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband and that the husband should not divorce his wife" (1 Corinthians vii. 10 f.).

You can find this exact same teaching against divorce in Matthew and Luke - Paul didn't "come up with it" by himself.

Paul tells the Corinthians that "the Lord [Jesus] commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel" (1 Corinthians ix. 14). This "command" appears in our synoptic tradition in the Matthaean commission to the twelve (Matthew x. 10), "the labourer deserves his food", and in the Lukan commission to the seventy (Luke x. 7).

As Bart Ehrman notes, "Paul's first letter (1 Thessalonians) is usually dated to 49 CE; his last (Romans?) to some twelve or thirteen years after that [...] In addition to data about Jesus’s life and death, Paul mentions on several occasions the teachings he delivered. Where did Paul get all this received tradition, from whom, and most important, when? Paul himself gives us some hints. He tells us, he made a trip to Jerusalem, and there he spent fifteen days with Cephas [Peter] and James. Cephas [Peter] was one of Jesus’s twelve disciples, and James was his brother."
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
He claimed to get his teachings directly from Jesus, a man who was dead and not there to talk to him.

Look, if you want to have faith in Paul, that's entirely your prerogative. For me, there are simply much simpler explanations than that he was channeling Jesus.
You believe in God, as far as I can tell, so how would you discern who hears him and who doesn't? The simplest explanation seems to be because you're not a Christian you don't believe Paul could have heard Jesus, as Jesus isn't God for you. I mean, that's sensible from a non-Christian POV, but how then do you tell that Eliyahu heard God but Paul was epileptic?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I doubt Paul faked his vision. Hallucinations do happen. I've heard some medical professionals say that the fact that Paul saw a bright light is indicative of having a seizure.
Also, dreams were typically viewed as being visions at times.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I think it may well go beyond that as "God's Spirit" preceded Jesus.
He was and did... but, at least in my understanding, the Holy Spirit wasn't joined to the human spirit until after the resurrection. The Holy Spirit did, however, fill the human soul with His presence and capacity.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You believe in God, as far as I can tell, so how would you discern who hears him and who doesn't? The simplest explanation seems to be because you're not a Christian you don't believe Paul could have heard Jesus, as Jesus isn't God for you. I mean, that's sensible from a non-Christian POV, but how then do you tell that Eliyahu heard God but Paul was epileptic?
Elijah and the prophets had "dreams and visions." That is indirect. I do not think "visions" means a literal seeing or hearing.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Yet, didn’t the credulous sinful Christians got deceived by sinful Paul:
  1. as Paul was obsessed by the devil and he took guidance from the devil and faked a vision
  2. as soon as he came to know that Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah survived a cursed death on the Cross
  3. had migrated out from Judea , lest he is caught again and killed,
  4. and out of the Roman Empire, out of Paul's hands to persecute Jesus and his true followers lest Jesus is caught again and killed?
Right?

Regards
I believe that is all fantasy on your part. I believe Paul had the Paraclete and one of the sign of that was that he spoke in tongues.
1Cor 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I doubt Paul faked his vision. Hallucinations do happen. I've heard some medical professionals say that the fact that Paul saw a bright light is indicative of having a seizure.
I believe medical professionals are always looking for material explanations and did so with my hallucinations , saying they were caused by the medicine I am taking but I believe mine are from the devil. The fruit tells you everything. Paul stopped arresting and putting to death Christians and the devil could not have wanted to produce that in him.
 
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