Signs of the Times - What’s happening to our world?

[dfnj]

That is a straw man. I never said I hated Hitler.

We are not going to have a conversation if you ignore half of what I said. I was never claiming you hate Hitler. I was talking about your idea of it would be unjust to allow Hitler to enter the gates of Heaven to experience eternal bliss. I said why do you care, what difference does it make. You said because I want justice. And I said if you want justice you will have to find it in a court of secular law. Again, who cares if God loves Hitler anyway. It's not like how God treats Hitler is going to prevent you from entering the gates of Heaven. And I said, what difference does it. And you then said because it's "unjust".

Well, there you have it. You want justice. You want to see people burn in Hell for all eternity. Or go to one of your Messenger's levels were souls of certain levels go based on how they are judged.

As I said, I don't think God cares about the affairs of man. I said, God loves every facet of His creation equality no matter what.

Your god likes to dole out justice. My God is too busy just loving souls.

I do not believe there was ever an Adam and Eve. That was an allegorical story. But let’s say God knew and God allowed them to eat the apple. So what? It just shows that they had free will and they made a mistake.

God could have created us two ways:
1. Perfect with no needs or desires essentially having omnipotent powers
2. Imperfect, full of needs, full of desires, and as a result, life is full of suffering and evil.

I think the biting of the apple caused the realization by Adam he was separate from God and full of imperfections. There two responses to the discovering we are separate from God and full of imperfections:
1. We hate God because life is full of suffering, people are evil, and life is unjust
2. We accept our imperfections in ourselves and in others, and love God despite the evil and suffering in the World

I choose the second option. You seem to be choosing the first option.

As fallible humans we can never judge and say who is saved or not.

You do it all the time. Did you not just say "Have you watch the news". You are constantly judging people as superior and inferior based on their beliefs. You have strong opinions on who is going to be saved and who is not. I just gave the opinion an omnipotent God would not care about sin because an omnipotent God would have no reason to care.

We do not have all the facts but God has all the facts and that is why God can judge.

I think labeling someone as "evil" is purely a subjective opinion and has nothing to do with facts. What is evil and what is not evil is a relationship between two people. So if what is evil is so subjective, which person does God use as His definition of what is evil?

Holy moly! God does not make choices over who is saved based on petty human desires of revenge and hate. God makes His choices based upon what He knows about people, which is everything.

How do you know God makes a choice at all? What I mean by petty human desires of revenge and hate is people want God to make a choice because of their own reasons. My argument has been why would God care or have a need to make a choice at all? When we die our soul returns back to God from whence we came. We die, we go into the light, we experience God, done. But it's not a bad thing. Looking into the face of God and experiencing God's infinite beauty is the greatest possible experience we can have. All our needs and desires will be fulfilled. We will become complete, whole, and perfect just like God in this moment. There is nothing left to do than to just be with God.

Yes, I agree our omnipotent God knows every choice we will ever make. However, I do not believe our existence has no purpose. I have argued we live in a cyclical Universe. In one cycle of the Universe we make once set of choices. In another cycle of the Universe we make another set of choices. Over some larger view of time containing the multiverse God gets to experience every possible choice we could ever possibly make in our all our lives. In one cycle of the Universe we are a serial killer. In another cycle of the Universe we are the greatest saint to ever live. But the sum of who we are across every possible cycle of the Universe is the same for every person. This is what mean by we exist in this Universe as an integral part of God realizing His omnipotence. God knows the result of every possible choice we could make at any point in our lives because over the entire multiverse God has seen every possible choice any of us can ever possibly make played out to its completion.

Now you may think this is all fantasy delusion. But I would like to point out what do think BEING omnipotent means? What else could being omnipotent mean other than seeing or experiencing the result of every possible possibility realized in some version of reality. God is the alpha and omega of experience.

Now explain me why you think your lesser god of judgment will judge us one way or the other based on one cycle of the Universe? My God is the God of the Multiverse of time and not just the god of this one universe.

Maybe this idea of a cyclical Universe is just too big for your mind to grasp. Do you do realize our Big Bang was the result of a star collapsing to black hole in previously existing space-time dimension? Here’s an interesting article explaining how:

https://phys.org/news/2015-10-white-holes.html

For me this is one of the main problems of putting all your faith in scripture coming from goat herders 2000 years ago. This is year 2020. Not many of us are still herding goats! Our understanding of the Universe is much bigger than 2000 years ago.

I never said that God allows people to suffer for all eternity. That is a Christian belief, but even if Christians believe that it does not mean that they are petty, looking for revenge, and are full of hate. They simply believe that is justice. Since we have free will we make our own choices, so why shouldn’t we pay a certain price for the choices we make? Why should we get off scot-free if we hurt or murder other people? That is not in accordance with justice.

I do not understand your obsession with justice. If you want justice the only place to get it is from a secular court of law. As I've said people do pay a steep price for their acts of evil. As I've said I believe in the golden rule of karma. If you cause suffering in others you will live a life of suffering here and now in equal proportion. The way the human mind works is when we act badly, we create a cycle of self-loathing. This self-loathing will cause us to create conditions in our lives that will cause us to suffer in equal proportion. We will then commit more acts of evil in response to our own self-inflicted suffering. There's not much God has to do to ensure justice. We do it to ourselves!

I will prove to you this is true. I keep answering your posts thinking this time she will be satisfied and go away. And boom, I continue to suffer!

God is not petty, looking for revenge or full of hate, but God is just and merciful so He will deal with people accordingly.

God is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires. Why would God have any reason to "deal with people" whatever this means? You are implying God has needs. This means you think God is NOT perfect, whole, and complete. This is what I mean when I say you worship a lesser god. You seem to think God has some desire for justice. I've asked you five times why you think God has any needs at all but you just ignore the question. Of course, I'm sure the Holy Messengers have told you God has needs.

I cannot say what will happen to evil people but neither can you. According to my beliefs, in the spiritual world they will not be where they can hurt good people, but there will still be a change for them to progress. The thing you might not understand is that some people choose evil and thus send themselves to hell, so they would not want to be in the Light. Why would a loving God force them to be in the Light?

God doesn’t force anyone into the light. There is just no other place to go but into the light.

There is no hell. When we die, we go into the light and experience God’s infinite beauty. This is our last and final experience.

The statement “they will not be where they can hurt good people” is like warm apple pie. It warms my heart. Heck, I just want to give all my money to your church!

 

[dfnj]

Sorry, but the belief in levels of morality did not come from my Messengers. I suggest you read these books. The first one is online, free to read. The second one is the one that talks about levels, or spheres in great detail. These are not religious books and the second book pokes fun of the Christian heaven.

Private Dowding
The Afterlife Revealed

I'm way too busy with my studies of panpsychism at the moment. Maybe you can just touch on one or two main points or themes. Please do not quote scripture. I want to hear it from your own voice.

Here’s a book you might find interesting:

https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering-ebook/dp/B00EXOFDXI/

You would be surprised by how far modern human psychology has progressed in the last 50 years! There's a really interesting archetype they talk about called the Weakling King.

However, our self is not a delusion because it is our soul, which is who we are and who we continue to be after we die. We are not each other because we all have an individual soul. We are not an expression of God’s consciousness because God is independent of all His creatures.

How do you know you are not deluding yourself when you think you are a separate consciousness from God. We could all be like neurons within the mind of God.

I agree with you, but that is not what I believe everyone will experience. It is not pretty for sime people but they make the choice. I suggest you at least read what it says about hell in Private Dowding. Hell is not a place, it is a thought region. Since the soul is what is responsible for consciousness and it is immortal, our thoughts go with is to the spiritual world.

I'm pretty sure Hell only exists on Earth. I live in New Jersey.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

You really love your authoritarianism. I very much doubt our omnipotent God of unconditional love has any needs or desires for our "allegiance ". Any god requiring allegiance is a lesser god who has needs. A perfect God needs nothing from us.

What you are doing is speaking for God and whatever floats your boat. Why can’t you see that?

No, it's very different. I am not telling you what to think. I am not telling I know the mind of God. What I am telling you is I am CHOOSING to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love who allows everyone through the gates of Heaven to experience eternal bliss regardless of our Earthly sins or how we practiced or not practiced our religion. Unconditional means no conditions. I may be wrong. But therefore my faith is stronger than yours. I am trusting my all-loving God to be all-loving.

Whereas you are telling me your Messengers actually speak for God through revelation which is the same thing as saying they are speaking for God directly. You are telling me your Messengers are telling you how to believe, how to achieve salvation, and what will happen to you after you die. As if they know from direct experience! I'm sure your Messengers have very well thought out and wise opinions on matters of spirituality. I never said they did not. What I did say is you are assuming your messengers are speaking for God directly or indirectly in some way. I do not accept your opinion on what someone else is saying about God. In my opinion, anyone who claims they or someone else is speaking for God, either directly or indirectly through revelation, is delusional.

If all Messengers are frauds than I am being misled but what is the chance that Jesus was a fraud? To believe you are an authority on God is very arrogant.

I am only an authority on my own beliefs and opinions.

You might find this surprising but there is some pretty good evidence the Gospels were written by the Romans. Google, "Caesar’s Messiah Joseph Atwill youtube". Atwill makes a very convincing argument the gospels were fabricated by the Romans as war-time occupational propaganda.

Matt.5 Verses 38 to 48, Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." Romans 13:1 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God."

What are the chances the most difficult people to govern on the planet are suddenly going to turn the other cheek, submit to their masters, and give to Caesar what is Caesar’s? Not very likely!

Belief and faith are not subjugation.

If you do not see the problem with scripture stating "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God" then I just give up. If you can't see that there is something seriously wrong with Romans 13:1 then I am speechless!

In my opinion, religion should have nothing to do with government. And further, authoritarianism is a horrible basis for religion. And even further, you would think an omnipotent God would be slightly more egalitarian with His divine form of government than what is defined by Romans 13:1!

Belief in self as an authority is arrogant.

You say arrogant and I say self-esteem. I am confident in my own beliefs. My faith in an all-loving God is unshakable. I do not share your fears with regards to obedience to authority. Life is already suffering. No matter what happens after I die, I will continue to have faith in my all-loving God.

Who said I have fears? I am not going to get in a contest over who has stronger faith as that is childish. It is also irrelevant, since the only thing that matters is what we have faith in. If someone has strong faith in a false belief it would be better to have no faith at all.

I say you have fears. What happens to you if you do not believe the way the Messengers are telling you how to think?

Yes, it is childish to fear an all-loving God.

Other people may choose not to forgive us but it does not matter. Getting forgiveness from God for the people we have sinned against is our salvation.

I cannot disagree more strongly. The people around us matter the most! Our omnipotent God needs nothing from us. God will be the same God no matter what happens between human beings. But when you cause someone else to suffer as a result of your actions you will experience the results of your bad behavior sooner rather than later. I don't understand why you think it is not important to get forgiveness from people we have sinned against. I suffer enough in my life. The last thing I want to do is crap all over someone and then deal with MORE suffering on the kick-back from the go-around. What goes around comes around!

There is only one God, not yours and mine. Your god conception is contrived; my God conception comes from scriptures. Your god is lesser because it does not exist.

I never said in definitive terms my God exists. What I said was "I choose to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love". Then I went on to describe what an "omnipotent God of unconditional love" would be like. And then I said based on your ideas of "unjust" would imply you are worshiping a lesser god. Look, it's very simple. My God is stronger because my God doesn't need any Messengers. My God is all-loving. That's pretty much it. With my God, there are no scriptures to quote as if you are speaking for God. All you have to do is go into the light.

If you are afraid to see what my religion teaches about the afterlife I suggest you read those nonreligious books about the afterlife I posted the links to. Your afterlife might depend upon having that knowledge. Ignorance is not bliss.

Sorry, I have no interest in another god of judgment. I've studied several. I am very busy with my studies in panpsychism.

 

[Jim]

When will we open our eyes, how much tribulation do we need to bring before we submit and consider the needed change?

Where would a person look, to consider the needed change? In Baha’i writings? What if most or all of the world’s people would look in Baha’i writings for ideas for solving the world’s problems? Do you see anything more than that, that might need to happen?

 

[Jim]

It appears that it will take a great calamity for people to consider such a simple message, that we are but one humanity and the God many worship, is One.

The great thing is, that humanity will unite under that banner of Oneness, in a rich diversity of culture and thought.

RF has shown me that it is possible for many differing opinions to be able to exist side by side, but it will only happen when we except we are One.

Happy Naw-Ruz for Thursday Evening

Regards Tony

Do you see anything else that might need to happen, besides more people agreeing that all people are one, and the God that we worship is one?

 

[Jim]

RF has shown me that it is possible for many differing opinions to be able to exist side by side, but it will only happen when we except we are One.

People agreeing to that doesn’t look to me like a solution at all. Most people agree with eliminating prejudices, and with the equality of men and women, and yet there is still widespread cruelty, violence and oppression against entire races and against women even in the countries where those principles are most widely accepted. Why would that change just from people agreeing that all people are one and there is only one God? I would be very surprised if the Tutsis and the Hutus thought that they were worshiping two different Gods.

 

[Jim]

I guess you will have to ask God as to why God chooses to send Messengers and then that Messenger asks the followers to share the Faith.

No one pushes any person away by having a conversation. We have choices and choices have to be made. We can look at the value of both sides of the discussion.

That is what God gives us, who am I to say it should unfold in any other way but by deeds supported by words.

Regards Tony

The point of all your posts seems to me to be for people to see Baha’i writings as being true, so that they will believe what the writings say about all people being one and all under the same God. I don’t see how that would solve any problems. Most people in Europe and North America believe in racial equality and equality between men and women, and yet there is still widespread cruelty, violence and oppression across those divides in those countries,

 

[Jim]

I see we can learn from each other, only when we can accept we are One, under One God.

I hope that you don’t mean that the way it looks to me. It looks to me like saying that you can’t learn from people who don’t believe that, and they can’t learn from you.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Where would a person look, to consider the needed change? In Baha’i writings? What if most or all of the world’s people would look in Baha’i writings for ideas for solving the world’s problems? Do you see anything more than that, that might need to happen?

Action always has to happen Jim, knowing and doing, are poles apart, the doing is mostly the failure of any noble purpose or faith.

Thus I see all people need to look within their own selves Jim and decide if they want to pursue a world where all people have equal opportunities for a better life. A world where the lack of basic dire needs of life are a thing of the past, where predudices have dissolved and our oneness attained.

I personally see that the needs of the age is in building a unity of purpose at community level, by giving our children and youth the virtues required to enable self empowerment and a desire to serve all the community over selfish desires.

At this time there have been a few attempts to ring this needed education to the masses, one was called the Virtues program, another now in offer is the Baha'i Rhui system which uses virtues based principles. In this system children and youth are empowered to find their full unique potential in virtue and ability in the process of rendering service to the community they live in. This in turn empowers the adults to find the needed change in their own lives.

All these choices are open to each and every individual, but with predudices still rabid in many places and in many people, they are still suppressed, or even banned.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you see anything else that might need to happen, besides more people agreeing that all people are one, and the God that we worship is one?

Words and agreement are meaningful only in action Jim. What needs to happen is consultation on the required actions supported by the words we offer, then implementing the agreed actions, but I suspect you already know that answer.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

People agreeing to that doesn’t look to me like a solution at all. Most people agree with eliminating prejudices, and with the equality of men and women, and yet there is still widespread cruelty, violence and oppression against entire races and against women even in the countries where those principles are most widely accepted. Why would that change just from people agreeing that all people are one and there is only one God? I would be very surprised if the Tutsis and the Hutus thought that they were worshiping two different Gods.

The process that gives us a realisation we are One, is a direct result of a change of mind that begins in one's own self.

I see this change happening in many people on RF and it is that change that brings forth the fruits of action in implementing the change.

Oneness is like watching the sun rise over a vast ocean on a day when all hopes are yours for the taking.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The point of all your posts seems to me to be for people to see Baha’i writings as being true, so that they will believe what the writings say about all people being one and all under the same God. I don’t see how tgat would solve any problems. Most people in Europe and North America believe in racial equality and equality between men and women, and yet there is still widespread cruelty, violence and oppression across those divides in those countries,

Believing, knowing and even agreeing is not necessarily implementing.

I see implementing the knowledge, in agreement of action is needed.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I hope that you don’t mean that the way it looks to me. It looks to me like saying that you can’t learn from people who don’t believe that, and they can’t learn from you.

That observation would depend on what one wants to learn. If one thinks they have an exclusive God, then the knowledge becomes very limited.

Light is the source of knowledge and life, darkness is lack of that knowledge and culminates in death. The question then is, what knowledge do we wish to pursue? Light and knowledge springs forth from many unexpected places.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you see anything more than that, that might need to happen?

Much more than that needs to happen, Imo.
For one, the world would have to recognize Baha'u'llah as the latest Manifestation of God, not just a social reformer.

 

[Milton Platt]

It's beginning to look that way!

List of predictions of end times....just add this one to the list.....
List of predictions of the end of the world - RationalWiki

 

[Milton Platt]

Can you imagine what Christians were saying during the Great 14-18 War?

Produce a bad situation in the World and many Christians start telling us this stuff, looking forward to a Judgemental Jesus, the sword flicking from his mouth, destroying the unbelievers...... but you'll be safe and warm?

The World has known such dreadful times over the last two millenia. No Jesus came. Don't hold your breath.

Interesting list.......
List of predictions of the end of the world - RationalWiki

 

[Milton Platt]

My kids were sent home with laptops... expanding on that, the State could provide more time off for teachers, while giving them the same pay, allowing them to seek other income possibilities, while at the same time having computer programs to grade papers.

...Because I feel like being a teacher is more demanding for what they earn in wages. So shortening classes, or reducing class time could be a positive thing for teachers.

But a negative thing for students.....they just need to pay teachers more and set the standard higher.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

List of predictions of end times....just add this one to the list.....
List of predictions of the end of the world - RationalWiki

Amongst all that, we can also choose to consider, if we see the promise has merit, that one of those predictions may have been correct.

I see this one was correct. 1844 was the fulfilment.

"1843: The "Great Disappointment": William Miller predicts the end would come in 1843... then 1844... oh. His many thousands of followers reacted in different ways to his utter failure: some wised up and gave up on his predictions, while others became Seventh Day Adventists. They're still waiting. Still others became the Jehovah's Witlesses, who badly retconned Miller's prediction so they could claim it actually did happen, just not the way he predicted." (from the posted link}

So, 1844 was not a great dissapiontment and the JW were right that it did not happen as expected. Put that together and all that is required is a different frame of reference and the Message of the Bab opens the door to greater understanding.

Regards Tony

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Viruses are a part of nature. Many people arrogantly think nature revolves around us, not the other way around. Just like previous pandemics, I believe this will pass and that it says nothing supernatural or unknown about the world. We're just caught in another aspect of nature that shows us how little control we actually have over the planet and its ecosystems.
The planet has been through multiple extinction events, reshaping of continents, and large-scale climate changes before. This is nothing to Earth and just something big to us, but it will still pass.

To me the ^above ^ sounds like something explained by Pandora's box.
Right, the planet has been through multiple-extinction events but that does Not make the Bible as wrong.
Once Adam broke God's Law that was as if Adam was taking the Law out of God's hands and placing the Law into Man's hands.
In other words, Adam set up People Rule as superior to God Rule.
Only with the passing of time would it show whose rule, who can govern best.
Mankind's history has shown that man can't regulate Earth, can't establish peace on Earth.
Whereas, while Jesus was on Earth he gave us a sample, a preview attraction of how Earth will be regulated.
Jesus even had control over weather phenomenon as found at Mark 6:51; Mark 4:39.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Amongst all that, we can also choose to consider, if we see the promise has merit, that one of those predictions may have been correct.
So, 1844 was not a great dissapiontment and the JW were right that it did not happen as expected. Put that together and all that is required is a different frame of reference and the Message of the Bab opens the door to greater understanding. Regards Tony

Wrong guesses or wrong calculations does Not make the Bible as wrong, just the calculations as wrong.
Instead of the dead past, the present will Not disappoint Bible believers - www.jw.org

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Where would a person look, to consider the needed change? In Baha’i writings? What if most or all of the world’s people would look in Baha’i writings for ideas for solving the world’s problems? Do you see anything more than that, that might need to happen?

I find the Golden Rule was already established by the time of Leviticus 19:18.
So, if everyone on the planet lived by the Golden Rule, the needed change would Not be needed because everyone would love one's neighbor as loving one's self.
What more needs to happen is Jesus' New commandment found at John 13:34-35.
Instead of love neighbor as self, in other words we are now to love neighbor as Jesus did.
We are to now love neighbor ' more ' than self.
Since that is Not going to happen, then the needed change is for God to bring to ruin those ruining the Earth - Revelation 11:18 B.