SimWorld without suffering

[Blackdog22]

Blackdog, tell me something: when someone says "Good morning" to you do you think they're saying that every morning that's ever been or ever will be is/was/and will be good in every possible way?

Just curious.

Saying good morning is a kind gesture, its like shaking hands. Pain and destruction are actual things, they actually effect people. Good morning doesn't effect people. Wait, I know you realize this. What is it that you are asking here?

 

[Gloone]

Saying good morning is a kind gesture, its like shaking hands. Pain and destruction are actual things, they actually effect people. Good morning doesn't effect people. Wait, I know you realize this. What is it that you are asking here?

I wouldn't be so sure of that. If you tell someone good morning it may brighten someones day, but if you tell someone to go drive their car into a ditch it might ruin it.

 

[Walkntune]

Just so I am completely clear. You don't consider pain and destruction an evil act? Any pain and any destruction is in no way evil? The whole of all known pain and all known destruction, none of it can be considered evil?

Also, I believe the premise behinds Meows entire post was directed at and focused around the POE. How wasn't it?

Pain and suffering in and of itself has nothing to do with evil.Evil acts can cause pain and suffering but so does giving birth. I relate it more to growing and healing then any kind of evil.
Acts of nature cause much suffering so are they therefore evil?

 

[Blackdog22]

Pain and suffering in and of itself has nothing to do with evil.Evil acts can cause pain and suffering but so does giving birth. I relate it more to growing and healing then any kind of evil.
Acts of nature cause much suffering so are they therefore evil?

Wouldn't you at least say some form of pain and suffering is evil? That is all it takes for simply suffering to be evil. When a women gives birth the outcome is good, but the pain is not good. No woman will ever say, "Yes!! The pain of childbirth is like a chocolate smoothie!"

They just wont because it isn't considered good. As far as acts of nature go. Yes, yes Tsunamis and earthquakes cause much suffering in someones life. The earthquake itself has no soul, so it can't have decided to do evil, but the outcome is evil. Of course you may not consider the destruction of another evil, if that is so then you have no respect for human life and this wouldn't apply to you.

 

[Walkntune]

=Blackdog22;2221859]

Wouldn't you at least say some form of pain and suffering is evil? That is all it takes for simply suffering to be evil.

No. As i said pain and suffering can be a consequence of evil but in and of itself it is not right or wrong. Just a process of damage trying to mend itself and nature coming back to balance.

They just wont because it isn't considered good. As far as acts of nature go. Yes, yes Tsunamis and earthquakes cause much suffering in someones life. The earthquake itself has no soul, so it can't have decided to do evil, but the outcome is evil. Of course you may not consider the destruction of another evil, if that is so then you have no respect for human life and this wouldn't apply to you.

Why is the outcome the part that was evil? It is the result of a caused action.
I value human life and find killing or harming someone evil. It is not the pain that the one who was harmed is feeling that is evil but the act that caused the pain that would be considered evil.It is the damage that was done and not the pain and suffering which is part of recovery.
If someone hits you and it hurts. the pain is just signaling to the brain,"Hey don't let that happen again!"It is a good thing and lets you know damage is being done.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

=Blackdog22;2221859]
No. As i said pain and suffering can be a consequence of evil but in and of itself it is not right or wrong. Just a process of damage trying to mend itself and nature coming back to balance.

Why is the outcome the part that was evil? It is the result of a caused action.
I value human life and find killing or harming someone evil. It is not the pain that the one who was harmed is feeling that is evil but the act that caused the pain that would be considered evil.It is the damage that was done and not the pain and suffering which is part of recovery.
If someone hits you and it hurts. the pain is just signaling to the brain,"Hey don't let that happen again!"It is a good thing and lets you know damage is being done.

Walk this discussion is about something much more direct then you are speaking of.
Regardless of who caused the pain, or what part of the interaction is Evil. Meow Mix, is simply saying, that right now, if God has the ability to stop your pain and give you bliss, yet holds that back from you, he is purposely leaving you in a suffering situation.

If I did that to a child, and left him hurting, burning, or whatever, and simply waited for him to deal with it on his own, I would be held accountable for that, if I could stop the pain but chose not to. Do you understand?

 

[Willamena]

Walk this discussion is about something much more direct then you are speaking of.
Regardless of who caused the pain, or what part of the interaction is Evil. Meow Mix, is simply saying, that right now, if God has the ability to stop your pain and give you bliss, yet holds that back from you, he is purposely leaving you in a suffering situation.

If I did that to a child, and left him hurting, burning, or whatever, and simply waited for him to deal with it on his own, I would be held accountable for that, if I could stop the pain but chose not to. Do you understand?

I agree.

The more appropriate counter-arguments would, in my opinion, address that image of omnipotence as an ability to change things (i.e. the opposite of impotence), and the consequent image of God as the etherical magic-fairy. Neither image works for "God" as I understand it.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I agree.

The more appropriate counter-arguments would, in my opinion, address that image of omnipotence as an ability to change things (i.e. the opposite of impotence), and the consequent image of God as the etherical magic-fairy. Neither image works for "God" as I understand it.

It seems many struggle with (not saying you at all) the idea that God can be omnipotent and still not able to perform that which is impossible. I can't recall how many times I have seen on the RF, someone suggest since God is omnipotent he can do Anything he wants.

In the course of children dialoging that is just fine, but when it is seriously dealt with, it simply can not be true. Anyway, just thought I would throw that out there....... again

 

[Willamena]

It seems many struggle with (not saying you at all) the idea that God can be omnipotent and still not able to perform that which is impossible. I can't recall how many times I have seen on the RF, someone suggest since God is omnipotent he can do Anything he wants.

In the course of children dialoging that is just fine, but when it is seriously dealt with, it simply can not be true. Anyway, just thought I would throw that out there....... again

Right. "Doing the impossible" is an incoherent idea.

 

[Walkntune]

Walk this discussion is about something much more direct then you are speaking of.
Regardless of who caused the pain, or what part of the interaction is Evil. Meow Mix, is simply saying, that right now, if God has the ability to stop your pain and give you bliss, yet holds that back from you, he is purposely leaving you in a suffering situation.

If I did that to a child, and left him hurting, burning, or whatever, and simply waited for him to deal with it on his own, I would be held accountable for that, if I could stop the pain but chose not to. Do you understand?

Sure I understand but i also understand that suffering and pain is used as a good and drive us in the right direction and is not an evil in and of itself.It actually makes us look at certain acts and see them as evil.We learn and grow from pain and suffering.
We use it for good in our own children to correct behaviours and for teaching discipline and patience.
We don't like it and I don't think we were supposed to like it.
This argument for pain and suffering kind of reminds me of an argument of logic against wisdom.
It also reminds me of this story here.Gods ways are not our ways.
A man was sleeping at night in his cabin when suddenly his room filled with light and the Savior appeared. The Lord told the man he had work for him to do, and showed him a large rock in front of his cabin. The Lord explained that the man was to push against the rock with all his might. This the man did, day after day. For many years he toiled from sun up to sun down, his shoulders set squarely against the cold, massive surface of the unmoving rock, pushing with all his might. Each night the man returned to his cabin sore, and worn out, feeling that his whole day had been spent in vain.

Seeing that the man was showing signs of discouragement, the devil decided to enter the picture by placing thoughts into the man's weary mind "You have been pushing against that rock for a long time, and it hasn't budged. Why kill yourself over this? You are never going to move it." This gave the man the impression that the task was impossible and that he was a failure. These thoughts discouraged and disheartened the man. "Why kill myself over this?" he thought. "I'll just put in my time, giving just the minimum effort and that will be good enough." And that is what he planned to do until one day he decided to make it a matter of prayer and take his troubled thoughts to the Lord.

"Lord" he said, "I have labored long and hard in your service, putting all my strength to do that which you have asked. Yet, after all this time, I have not even budged that rock by half a millimeter. What is wrong? Why am I failing?"

The Lord responded compassionately, "My friend, when I asked you to serve me and you accepted, I told you that your task was to push against the rock with all your strength, which you have done. Never once did I mention to you that I expected you to move it. Your task was to push. And now you come to me, with your strength spent, thinking that you have failed. But, is that really so?

Look at yourself. Your arms are strong and muscled, your back sinewy and brown, your hands are callused from constant pressure, and your legs have become massive and hard. Through opposition you have grown much and your abilities now surpass that which you used to have. Yet you haven't moved the rock. But your calling was to be obedient and to push and to exercise your faith and trust in My wisdom. This you have done. I, my friend, will now move the rock."

At times, when we hear a word from God, we tend to use our own intellect to decipher what He wants, when actually what God wants is just simple obedience and faith in Him.... By all means, exercise the faith that moves mountains, but know that it is still God who moves the mountains. You just P.U.S.H.!

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Sure I understand but i also understand that suffering and pain is used as a good and drive us in the right direction and is not an evil in and of itself.It actually makes us look at certain acts and see them as evil.We learn and grow from pain and suffering.
We use it for good in our own children to correct behaviours and for teaching discipline and patience.
We don't like it and I don't think we were supposed to like it.
This argument for pain and suffering kind of reminds me of an argument of logic against wisdom.
It also reminds me of this story here.Gods ways are not our ways.
A man was sleeping at night in his cabin when suddenly his room filled with light and the Savior appeared. The Lord told the man he had work for him to do, and showed him a large rock in front of his cabin. The Lord explained that the man was to push against the rock with all his might. This the man did, day after day. For many years he toiled from sun up to sun down, his shoulders set squarely against the cold, massive surface of the unmoving rock, pushing with all his might. Each night the man returned to his cabin sore, and worn out, feeling that his whole day had been spent in vain.

Seeing that the man was showing signs of discouragement, the devil decided to enter the picture by placing thoughts into the man's weary mind "You have been pushing against that rock for a long time, and it hasn't budged. Why kill yourself over this? You are never going to move it." This gave the man the impression that the task was impossible and that he was a failure. These thoughts discouraged and disheartened the man. "Why kill myself over this?" he thought. "I'll just put in my time, giving just the minimum effort and that will be good enough." And that is what he planned to do until one day he decided to make it a matter of prayer and take his troubled thoughts to the Lord.

"Lord" he said, "I have labored long and hard in your service, putting all my strength to do that which you have asked. Yet, after all this time, I have not even budged that rock by half a millimeter. What is wrong? Why am I failing?"

The Lord responded compassionately, "My friend, when I asked you to serve me and you accepted, I told you that your task was to push against the rock with all your strength, which you have done. Never once did I mention to you that I expected you to move it. Your task was to push. And now you come to me, with your strength spent, thinking that you have failed. But, is that really so?

Look at yourself. Your arms are strong and muscled, your back sinewy and brown, your hands are callused from constant pressure, and your legs have become massive and hard. Through opposition you have grown much and your abilities now surpass that which you used to have. Yet you haven't moved the rock. But your calling was to be obedient and to push and to exercise your faith and trust in My wisdom. This you have done. I, my friend, will now move the rock."

At times, when we hear a word from God, we tend to use our own intellect to decipher what He wants, when actually what God wants is just simple obedience and faith in Him.... By all means, exercise the faith that moves mountains, but know that it is still God who moves the mountains. You just P.U.S.H.!

Sorry to be so blunt, but how can this rationalization mean anything to a baby born with a painful disease, and then after a year die a painful death? What lesson did they learn?

I am not disagreeing with you about young children, adults learn from trial and errors, pain and suffering, but you must realize that argument looks thin when we address those that are not around long enough to learn anything.

This is where Meow Mix has the upper hand against arguments like you are presenting. That is why I have a problem with it, because it sounds fine for most situations, it doesn't work for all of them, therefor is ineffective against her position.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Sorry to be so blunt, but how can this rationalization mean anything to a baby born with a painful disease, and then after a year die a painful death? What lesson did they learn?

There is no 'basic training' in life. We get thrust headfirst into it. Just because you think there should be protection for the innocent, doesn't mean there is. Situations like these are painful reminders of that.

This is where Meow Mix has the upper hand against arguments like you are presenting. That is why I have a problem with it, because it sounds fine for most situations, it doesn't work for all of them, therefor is ineffective against her position.

I think you'll find that no argument will cover every situation.

 

[Meow Mix]

I think you'll find that no argument will cover every situation.

If not, then your position is what's known as "inexhaustive" and until you find one that does you must admit defeat.

Either you can find an exhaustive refutation for PoE, or you can't and must admit its force.

 

[sandandfoam]

I'm not sure there is a problem of evil because I'm not sure evil exists.

I've recently read that "Good and bad are only in your mind...in the realm of pure religion there is no confusion ..of good or bad" (Suzuki 2009, p.30)
I think there is something in this but have to digest it more before it becomes my own.

 

[Willamena]

I'm not sure there is a problem of evil because I'm not sure evil exists.

I've recently read that "Good and bad are only in your mind...in the realm of pure religion there is no confusion ..of good or bad" (Suzuki 2009, p.30)
I think there is something in this but have to digest it more before it becomes my own.

David Suzuki?

"Only in your mind," though, just relocates the problem. It doesn't eliminate it.

 

[Meow Mix]

I'm not sure there is a problem of evil because I'm not sure evil exists.

I've recently read that "Good and bad are only in your mind...in the realm of pure religion there is no confusion ..of good or bad" (Suzuki 2009, p.30)
I think there is something in this but have to digest it more before it becomes my own.

It's usually easy to entertain such ideas from the comfort of our own air conditioned living rooms, but something tells me that suffering is real and that it's bad.

 

[sandandfoam]

It's usually easy to entertain such ideas from the comfort of our own air conditioned living rooms, but something tells me that suffering is real and that it's bad.

I didn't deny suffering.

 

[sandandfoam]

"Only in your mind," though, just relocates the problem. It doesn't eliminate it.

Does if the mind dismisses it as not real.

Like realizing the scraping at the door is the dog and not an axe-murderer.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

I don't buy into this argument that God "had" to create suffering for some inexplicable reason. It's entirely possible to completely cognitively construct a fully functional world in which suffering never enters the picture and in which citizens would still have free will and happiness.

And just how do you (specifically) know what this happy and free society should be?

 

[Thief]

Did anyone research the pic of the vulture waiting for the child to die?

It's been awhile since I read the story....but as I recall....
the photographer chased away the bird.
His photo won a Pulitzer.

He may not have known the fate of the child after he left the scene.
But he himself, became haunted by the event.
He fell into depression and it is believed he committed suicide.