Sister Beck's Talk

[Sola'lor]

Because of the implication that I need to be the "best homemaker" (she said it, not me).

When I hear that phrase I take it not to mean the absolutly best home on all the planet. I take it to mean that LDS homes should be better places to raise children of God that non-LDS homes. That's because we have something that non-LDS don't. When ever she says perfect in that talk I never took it to mean absolutly perfect. We know we can never be perfect in this life. I always thought she meant perfect to our abilities. If we do the best we can then that is as perfect as we can do.

 

[Sola'lor]

What if I prefer to have a messy house, listen to Led Zeppelin and read my Book of Mormon while doing yoga?

It's not about what we prefer but what we are commanded to do. An important part of our lives on the earth is to change our will to what the Lord would have us do. This is called repentance. If we are doing something that is not in line with the will of the Lord that is sin. Because of this we aren't perfect. We will never be perfect in this life. I know I'm certainly not. But it's our goal to change ourselves to be in line with what the Lord wants us to do.

I may want to go not go to church or pay tithing. But that doesn't make it ok just because it's what I would prefer. If it's not in line with the Lord's will it's wrong. Not that doing yoga is wrong I'm just speaking generally.

If the church leaders tell us to do something we need to do our best to do it. Our church leaders speak for the Lord. What they speak is the Lord's will. If Christ wants all women to be stay at home mom's then all mothers should do their best to fulfill the Lord's will. If Christ wanted all men to be stay at home dad's then the men should do the best they can to do that. Regardless of how they feel about it. And that's the key. We need to change our personal desires to match the will of the Lord.

Another example: The Lord has commanded us to be perfect. He knew it would be impossible for anyone to be perfect in this life. But that is the goal we need to attain to. We need to be as perfect as we can and always strive to be a liitle better.

 

[Bishka]

If Christ wants all women to be stay at home mom's then all mothers should do their best to fulfill the Lord's will.

Does He?

How about instead of being stay-at-home mothers, we be the best mothers we can be, whether it is stay-at-home or not?

 

[Sola'lor]

Does He?

How about instead of being stay-at-home mothers, we be the best mothers we can be, whether it is stay-at-home or not?

I didn't say that was his will I was just using it as an example. I'm sure you read that statement I made after that about Christ wanting all men to be stay at home dad. I was just trying to illustrate that if something is the Lord's will we need to do the best we can obey.

If the Lord said stay at home moms, then who are we to disregard the stay at home part. If the Lord said just mothers, then the stay at home part is irrelevant. In this statement I'm not trying to say what the Lord has said. I'm just using hypotheticals.

 

[zookeeper]

If I were convinced that it's God's will that I conform to Sister Beck's interpretation of what makes a woman a good mother, I would certainly be less critical of the message I got out of her talk.

Let's just look at one paragraph from her talk:

"Mothers who know honor sacred ordinances and covenants. I have visited sacrament meetings in some of the poorest places on the earth where mothers have dressed with great care in their Sunday best despite walking for miles on dusty streets and using worn-out public transportation. They bring daughters in clean and ironed dresses with hair brushed to perfection; their sons wear white shirts and ties and have missionary haircuts. These mothers know they are going to sacrament meeting, where covenants are renewed. These mothers have made and honor temple covenants. They know that if they are not pointing their children to the temple, they are not pointing them toward desired eternal goals. These mothers have influence and power."

What about mothers whose fifteen-year-old sons don't want to have a missionary haircut or wear a white shirt and tie to church? Do you know how unimaginably grateful I would have been if my fifteen-year-old son had been marginally cooperative about even going to church! If he had said, "Mom, I'll go, but I will wear what I want to wear," I would have gotten down on my knees and thanked my Heavenly Father for helping my son to be such a good boy. I did not make any covenants in the temple that required me to incur hostility between me and my children. There are things that are important to our Heavenly Father and things that aren't and I think that "Mothers who know" are able to recognize them. I would like to have been a mother who had influence, but I never had a desire to be a mother who had power.

You know, the only real principle that Sis. Beck stated in that paragraph is the first sentence. Has anyone considered that after that sentence Sis. Beck was just giving and example of the principle? So we should ask ourselves how we can apply the principle to our own lives. Just a thought.

 

[Scott C.]

What about mothers whose fifteen-year-old sons don't want to have a missionary haircut or wear a white shirt and tie to church? Do you know how unimaginably grateful I would have been if my fifteen-year-old son had been marginally cooperative about even going to church! If he had said, "Mom, I'll go, but I will wear what I want to wear," I would have gotten down on my knees and thanked my Heavenly Father for helping my son to be such a good boy. I did not make any covenants in the temple that required me to incur hostility between me and my children. There are things that are important to our Heavenly Father and things that aren't and I think that "Mothers who know" are able to recognize them. I would like to have been a mother who had influence, but I never had a desire to be a mother who had power.

From the time my third child (a son) was about two years old, he rarely cooperated with anything to do with church. I remember carrying him kicking and screeming from my car into church when he was about 8. I didn't know what else to do. He was too young to leave at home alone and I didn't want to go inactive to stay home with him every week. No amount of child psychology would work. It was either let him stay home every week or carry him in. By middle school it was drugs, truancy, failing classes, Juvenile Detention, regularly climbing out the window at night and sneaking back in, phone calls from parents saying my daugter said your son stole his purse, calls from the High School VP, son yelling and swearing at his parents. When he was about 14 years old, I decided I would never force him to do anything churchwise, but would encourage only. In fact for a long time, I didn't even encourage. I was more concerned about saving his life than anything else. I don't think my earlier approach was the cause of his problem, but it was clear by 14 that I needed to try someting else. We put him in some major therapy/intervention programs. Now at 20, he's come a long way. He has a GED, a nice Mormon convert girl friend and comes to church because he wants to and plans to marry in the temple. Not everyone turns it around by 20. I know that. Now, my fifth child (son) turns 15 in a few days. He gets good grades, is our Priesthood meeting pianist, plays High School sports, and sings in the choir. I'm convined that the difference between the two is not entirely agency. Don't get me wrong, I think I understand agency. I'm also a convert to the fact that the good Lord designs the genes and DNA differently for every person and some mental health challenges are planted there at birth, as a challenge to overcome. Read "The Valley of Sorrow" by Elder Alexander Morrison, emeritus Seventy. He has great empathy. compassion, and understanding for mental illness. I'm way off topic. Sorry.

 

[Starfish]

I can see here that we're not reading each others posts. I think we're basically in agreement about teenagers. Thank goodness they even come to church at all.

If YOU were all small children again:

Wouldn't you choose to be at home with mom or dad and not be in day-care?
Wouldn't you choose to live in a home that was reasonably clean (no one said 100% spotless) so that you weren't embarrassed to bring your friends home?
Wouldn't you choose to have parents who set good examples of cleanliness and respect?

Obviously there's much more to parenting than this, but this seems to be the focus here.

As many have already said, Sis. Beck set a worthy goal to strive for. Just because we're not there yet, doesn't mean we stop trying.

 

[nutshell]

I can see here that we're not reading each others posts. I think we're basically in agreement about teenagers. Thanks goodness they even come to church at all.

If YOU were all small children again:

Wouldn't you choose to be at home with mom or dad and not be in day-care?
Wouldn't you choose to live in a home that was reasonably clean (no one said 100% spotless) so that you weren't embarrassed to bring your friends home?
Wouldn't you choose to have parents who set good examples of cleanliness and respect?

Obviously there's much more to parenting than this, but this seems to be the focus here.

As many have already said, Sis. Beck set a worthy goal to strive for. Just because we're not there yet, doesn't mean we stop trying.

This is not what Beck was talking about. The problem is that she set a goal to strive for - it's that she made it sound like it's the only goal.

 

[Starfish]

This is not what Beck was talking about. The problem is that she set a goal to strive for - it's that she made it sound like it's the only goal.

Well, I don't see it that way. So I'm willing to agree to disagree.

 

[tnutz]

So what if I'm not the homemaker, stay-at-home mum, mother, etc?

What if I prefer to have a messy house, listen to Led Zeppelin and read my Book of Mormon while doing yoga? How does that fit into Sister Beck's talk that was aimed at all women of the Church?

Preferring to have a messy house is not going to keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom, but a clean home is more condusive to the spirit, and men are not excluded in that, they should strive just as much for a clean home. And yes, we are counseled to help with that as much as possible in our Priesthood meetings.

 

[tnutz]

When I hear that phrase I take it not to mean the absolutly best home on all the planet. I take it to mean that LDS homes should be better places to raise children of God that non-LDS homes. That's because we have something that non-LDS don't. When ever she says perfect in that talk I never took it to mean absolutly perfect. We know we can never be perfect in this life. I always thought she meant perfect to our abilities. If we do the best we can then that is as perfect as we can do.

It would be pretty hard to the best at anything, but that should not keep you from trying. What is wrong with trying to be the best you can be?

 

[nutshell]

Comment

power in motherhood.

In the Book of Mormon we read about 2,000 exemplary young men who were exceedingly valiant, courageous, and strong. "Yea, they were men of truth and soberness, for they had been taught to keep the commandments of God and to walk uprightly before him" These faithful young men paid tribute to their mothers. They said, "Our mothers knew it". I would suspect that the mothers of Captain Moroni, Mosiah, Mormon, and other great leaders also knew.
The responsibility mothers have today has never required more vigilance. More than at any time in the history of the world, we need mothers who know. Children are being born into a world where they "wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" However, mothers need not fear. When mothers know who they are and who God is and have made covenants with Him, they will have great power and influence for good on their children.

I thought this was an incredibly vague opening. She never fully explains that "it" is. Using the 2000 stripling warriors story as her opening may also be insensitive considering the number of warriors dying abroad right now. Does it mean there mothers didn't know "it" ??? Of course not.

...Bear Children

Mothers who know desire to bear children. Whereas in many cultures in the world children are "becoming less valued," in the culture of the gospel we still believe in having children. Prophets, seers, and revelators who were sustained at this conference have declared that "God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force."Pres Benson taught that young couples should not postpone having children and that "in the eternal perspective, children—not possessions, not position, not prestige—are our greatest jewels."
Faithful daughters of God desire children. In the scriptures we read of Eve, Sarah, Rebekah, and Mary, who were foreordained to be mothers before children were born to them. Some women are not given the responsibility of bearing children in mortality, but just as Hannah of the Old Testament prayed fervently for her child , the value women place on motherhood in this life and the attributes of motherhood they attain here will rise with them in the Resurrection. Women who desire and work toward that blessing in this life are promised they will receive it for all eternity, and eternity is much, much longer than mortality. There is eternal influence and power in motherhood.

"Mothers who know bear children" is an oxymoron because a person isn't a mother until they bear children. She should have said "Women who know" but that would throw off the format of her talk. There are many children in the world. The commandment to have children is in force. However, that does not mean every couple should be having as many children as they can as soon as possible. If a couple wants to wait 1, 3, 9 years before having children that is not against what Pres Benson said if the couple is not ready physically, emotionally, or spiritually. Bringing children into the world and not being able to care for them in one of these three areas will likely have negative effects on the children. Note: Perfection is not required - but preparation is. Instead of pressuring couple to "bear children," couples should be encouraged to prepare. We say "the glory of God is intelligence." Well, lets be smart this important responsibility.

... Sacred Ordinances and Covenants

Mothers who know honor sacred ordinances and covenants. I have visited sacrament meetings in some of the poorest places on the earth where mothers have dressed with great care in their Sunday best despite walking for miles on dusty streets and using worn-out public transportation. They bring daughters in clean and ironed dresses with hair brushed to perfection; their sons wear white shirts and ties and have missionary haircuts. These mothers know they are going to sacrament meeting, where covenants are renewed. These mothers have made and honor temple covenants. They know that if they are not pointing their children to the temple, they are not pointing them toward desired eternal goals. These mothers have influence and power.

Yes - we should make and honor sacred covenants. But lets cut the Molly Mormon image of perfection. The Church is diverse and I believe the late Presdent Hinckley would want us to embrace that diversity rather than looking like we came off an assembly line. There's nothing wrong with pressed dresses, white shirts, and missionary haircuts - but this isn't the only path to making and honoring sacred covenants. Indeed, I think these things are rather insignificant.

...Are Nurturers

Mothers who know are nurturers. This is their special assignment and role under the plan of happiness. To nurture means to cultivate, care for, and make grow. Therefore, mothers who know create a climate for spiritual and temporal growth in their homes. Another word for nurturing is homemaking. Homemaking includes cooking, washing clothes and dishes, and keeping an orderly home. Home is where women have the most power and influence; therefore, Latter-day Saint women should be the best homemakers in the world. Working beside children in homemaking tasks creates opportunities to teach and model qualities children should emulate. Nurturing mothers are knowledgeable, but all the education women attain will avail them nothing if they do not have the skill to make a home that creates a climate for spiritual growth. Growth happens best in a "house of order," and women should pattern their homes after the Lord's house. Nurturing requires organization, patience, love, and work. Helping growth occur through nurturing is truly a powerful and influential role bestowed on women.

This is the worst part of her talk. Look at Beck's progression:
1. Women have a special assignment.
2. That special assignment is nurturing.
3. Nurturing is homemaking.
4. Homemaking is cooking and cleaning.

I HATE this part. Is it true that a house of order is a house of God? Yes. But to reduce the sacred calling of women/mothers to cooking and cleaning is a slap in the face. Women and mothers are SO MUCH MORE than this - but Beck has squashed them like an ant. Women and mothers are goddesses, queens, princesses unto the Most High - not maids.

Does cooking and cleaning need to be done? YES - but it's not a part of the "special assignment" of mothers. Men should get off their collective butts and help out (oh, that's right - they have another priesthood meeting to go to - sorry, honey).

...Are Leaders

Mothers who know are leaders. In equal partnership with their husbands, they lead a great and eternal organization. These mothers plan for the future of their organization. They plan for missions, temple marriages, and education. They plan for prayer, scripture study, and family home evening. Mothers who know build children into future leaders and are the primary examples of what leaders look like. They do not abandon their plan by succumbing to social pressure and worldly models of parenting. These wise mothers who know are selective about their own activities and involvement to conserve their limited strength in order to maximize their influence where it matters most.

Beck continues her narrow interpretation of what mothers are to do. She says mothers are to teach their children to be leaders. Guess what, Beck: Not every person is a leader. Why the focus on leadership? Why don't mothers (and fathers) teach their children to be good people who stick to their convictions whether they're leaders or not.

Many kids and missionaries feel like there's something wrong with them when they don't get those leadership callings (quorum pres, beehive pres, district leader, etc.). They feel this way because of the leadership mentallity Beck promotes.

...Are Teachers

Mothers who know are always teachers. Since they are not babysitters, they are never off duty. A well-taught friend told me that he did not learn anything at church that he had not already learned at home. His parents used family scripture study, prayer, family home evening, mealtimes, and other gatherings to teach. Think of the power of our future missionary force if mothers considered their homes as a pre–missionary training center. Then the doctrines of the gospel taught in the MTC would be a review and not a revelation. That is influence; that is power.

Yes we are to teach our children, but I'm going to be nit-picky here. Beck could have left out "never off duty." Yes, as parents, we are always on duty, but given the overall tone of her talk, this line implies women never get a break. Ridiculous. Mothers should feel free to hand the kids over to dad for a night and go have a girls night out. God knows the men are taken away from the home enough because of church activities. Lets do more for the women (and if the church won't then let them get out with their friends without it being an official church activity).

...Do Less

omitted .

No comment right now.

...Stand Strong and Immovable

omitted I have every confidence that our women will do this and will come to be known as mothers who "knew". In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

She doesn't get my Amen.

 

[nutshell]

Preferring to have a messy house is not going to keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom, but a clean home is more condusive to the spirit, and men are not excluded in that, they should strive just as much for a clean home. And yes, we are counseled to help with that as much as possible in our Priesthood meetings.

Show me a priesthood (or any other conference talk) that tells men it is there special assignment to cook and clean.

 

[tnutz]

Does He?


How about instead of being stay-at-home mothers, we be the best mothers we can be, whether it is stay-at-home or not?

There you go Bishka, if a women is being the best mother she can be, than both she and the Lord know that. Yet, if you are not perfect, than there is no reason you can't find ways to improve.

 

[tnutz]

Comment

I thought this was an incredibly vague opening. She never fully explains that "it" is. Using the 2000 stripling warriors story as her opening may also be insensitive considering the number of warriors dying abroad right now. Does it mean there mothers didn't know "it" ??? Of course not.

If that's how you feel then you might as well go above Sister Beck's head, and petition the Lord to change the Book of Mormon, because there are many insensitive things within it.

"Mothers who know bear children" is an oxymoron because a person isn't a mother until they bear children. She should have said "Women who know" but that would throw off the format of her talk. There are many children in the world. The commandment to have children is in force. However, that does not mean every couple should be having as many children as they can as soon as possible. If a couple wants to wait 1, 3, 9 years before having children that is not against what Pres Benson said if the couple is not ready physically, emotionally, or spiritually. Bringing children into the world and not being able to care for them in one of these three areas will likely have negative effects on the children. Note: Perfection is not required - but preparation is. Instead of pressuring couple to "bear children," couples should be encouraged to prepare. We say "the glory of God is intelligence." Well, lets be smart this important responsibility.

She never says that you need to have all of the children you can, as soon as you can. On top of that, no matter what you do, you will never be fully prepared to have a child.

Yes - we should make and honor sacred covenants. But lets cut the Molly Mormon image of perfection. The Church is diverse and I believe the late Presdent Hinckley would want us to embrace that diversity rather than looking like we came off an assembly line. There's nothing wrong with pressed dresses, white shirts, and missionary haircuts - but this isn't the only path to making and honoring sacred covenants. Indeed, I think these things are rather insignificant.

You're right there is nothing wrong with looking your best, and she never says this is the only path.

This is the worst part of her talk. Look at Beck's progression:

1. Women have a special assignment.
2. That special assignment is nurturing.
3. Nurturing is homemaking.
4. Homemaking is cooking and cleaning.

I HATE this part. Is it true that a house of order is a house of God? Yes. But to reduce the sacred calling of women/mothers to cooking and cleaning is a slap in the face. Women and mothers are SO MUCH MORE than this - but Beck has squashed them like an ant. Women and mothers are goddesses, queens, princesses unto the Most High - not maids.

Does cooking and cleaning need to be done? YES - but it's not a part of the "special assignment" of mothers. Men should get off their collective butts and help out (oh, that's right - they have another priesthood meeting to go to - sorry, honey).

Taken out of context again Nutshell. She says nuture/homeaking INCLUDE cooking and cleaning, and no where does she say that this is all women and mothers should be doing. She never says men cannont assist with this. She doesn't reduce or limit your "special assignment to this, that is your assumption. You are trying to turn everything she says into some kind of repressing, anti-woman speech.
I agree that Men should helping in the home, not sitting on their duff while their wife does it all. And I would gladly trade any of my weekly meetings to stay home with my family. Do you Priesthood leaders enjoy all of the meetings we go to?

Beck continues her narrow interpretation of what mothers are to do. She says mothers are to teach their children to be leaders. Guess what, Beck: Not every person is a leader. Why the focus on leadership? Why don't mothers (and fathers) teach their children to be good people who stick to their convictions whether they're leaders or not.

Many kids and missionaries feel like there's something wrong with them when they don't get those leadership callings (quorum pres, beehive pres, district leader, etc.). They feel this way because of the leadership mentallity Beck promotes.

Earlier you said that we should not be encouraged to follow the "Molly Mormon" Mold, not be sheep off the assembly line, but wait now we should not be encouraged to be leaders either.
If you are living the Gospel, chances are, you are setting an positive example, and therefore being a Leader by example.

Yes we are to teach our children, but I'm going to be nit-picky here. Beck could have left out "never off duty." Yes, as parents, we are always on duty, but given the overall tone of her talk, this line implies women never get a break. Ridiculous. Mothers should feel free to hand the kids over to dad for a night and go have a girls night out. God knows the men are taken away from the home enough because of church activities. Lets do more for the women (and if the church won't then let them get out with their friends without it being an official church activity).

Oh so now you are going to be picky? Once again you assume that Beck is saying that women never need a break, nor should they want a break. If woman is never taking a break from the kids or housework, that is ridicuous.
I don't know what you mean "Let's do more for the women"? Do you want some extra meetings or something?

 

[tnutz]

Show me a priesthood (or any other conference talk) that tells men it is there special assignment to cook and clean.

There is no such talk for men or women. Sister Beck said that part of homeaking INCLUDES keeping an orderly home, along with many other things.
And Priesthood holders have been told to assist their wives with homeaking.

 

[Starfish]

Yes we are to teach our children, but I'm going to be nit-picky here. Beck could have left out "never off duty." Yes, as parents, we are always on duty, but given the overall tone of her talk, this line implies women never get a break. Ridiculous. Mothers should feel free to hand the kids over to dad for a night and go have a girls night out. God knows the men are taken away from the home enough because of church activities. Lets do more for the women (and if the church won't then let them get out with their friends without it being an official church activity).
.

Sis. Beck was exactly right when she said mothers are never off duty. Whenever I was away from my kids, no matter who (including their wonderful, supportive father) was with them, they were in the back of my mind. I still wondered if everything was okay. Of course there were breaks, but I was never off duty. Even today, with grown kids, I am not off duty. I still worry and pray for them.

I've always felt the Church truly tries to support women with the heavy load they bear. We have the Visiting Teaching program for just the women, to form a network of support. Men don't get that. All those years of Homemaking mtgs. and Enrichment Nights were to give women a "break". Men never got those meetings. And though we were encouraged in improving homemaking skills, we were CONSTANTLY told to not expect perfection in ourselves. To just do our best.

 

[nutshell]

I'll respond to you Molly Mormons and Peter Priesthoods later when I have time.

 

[tnutz]

I'll respond to you Molly Mormons and Peter Priesthoods later when I have time.

That's hilarious if you are referring to me. I guarantee that no one who knows me refers to me as Peter Priesthood.

 

[Bishka]

Preferring to have a messy house is not going to keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom, but a clean home is more condusive to the spirit, and men are not excluded in that, they should strive just as much for a clean home. And yes, we are counseled to help with that as much as possible in our Priesthood meetings.

For the most part, I've found it to be the opposite, if I'm worrying about have a perfectly clean house so I can feel the Spirit, I'm not going to feel it. I've felt the Spirit more in my dirty apartment then in when its spotless.