It should have said "let their be no slave"
Understanding how ancient societies work will make it clear that a sudden decision to ban slavery is far more disastrous than slavery itself.
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Slavery (Women) and Islam
- Thread starter Sumit
- Start date
Understanding how ancient societies work will make it clear that a sudden decision to ban slavery is far more disastrous than slavery itself.
Sumit
Sanatana Dharma
Why not. They need food to need to eat and place to live. Since I gave verses from Quran but none of you provided explanation of those verses. But all you did is to justify by giving some abc. But dear brother India suffered more than 1000 years due to Islam and during this period slavery was at it's peak between India and Arab. And when you have no ans you complain about India, but you don't even try to know the facts. India after Indonesia is the country with most numbers of muslims but their contribution to Indian economy is big Zero (and their birth is far more). Secondly in India more than 6 crore illegal muslims from Bangladesh live who adds poverty. So what is the reason that before arrival of muslims India was golden bird but now she face poverty and the sate with more muslim population tops in poverty. Well this will happen if muslims uses resources limitlessely without supporting economy. You can see this in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somaliya the most failed states. Well I think I am not going to get reply on topic here (but a reply that is not close to reality but just divert topic) so no use of further discussion here.
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Why not. They need food to need to eat and place to live. Since I gave verses from Quran but none of you provided explanation of those verses. But all you did is to justify by giving some abc. But dear brother India suffered more than 1000 years due to Islam and during this period slavery was at it's peak between India and Arab. And when you have no ans you complain about India, but you don't even try to know the facts. India after Indonesia is the country with most numbers of muslims but their contribution to Indian economy is big Zero (and their birth is far more). Secondly in India more than 6 crore illegal muslims from Bangladesh live who adds poverty. So what is the reason that before arrival of muslims India was golden bird but now she face poverty and the sate with more muslim population tops in poverty. Well this will happen if muslims uses resources limitlessely without supporting economy. You can see this in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somaliya the most failed states. Well I think I am not going to get reply on topic here (but a reply that is not close to reality but just divert topic) so no use of further discussion here.
So you want to say that poorness,prostitution and slavery in India is caused by Islam.Thats ridiculous.
Islam was for long period in Malysia & Spain,
So do you think they have slavery as in India.
Sha'irullah
رسول الآلهة
Please do not be offended by this post because I have seen ones like it occur so many times about the nature of Muhammad.
I wish I could say the same about Saudi Arabia. I should know of all people about this as should you.
Indonesian girls imported straight to the heart of Islam. This happens all the time and their abuse hits the media daily so attack another ethno-religious population will not make you look any better. Slavery existed and still does in certain forms. Slavery was a main-staple in ancient cultures and it is based off the principles that you keep what you conquer. As much as I would love to be supportive of the banishment of slavery I know for a fact that anybody would permit it. Slavery is a temptation an by technicality a right for any human being. Slavery was deemed immoral because not a single society back then found it wrong. Societies like Egypt were built from slavery as was the most liberal country on earth.....America.
Slavery is a system where the strong control the weak, the victorious dominate the defeated and the conquerors have dominion over the conquered. This happens with lions, bees and especially with ants. The expression for this is "Veni, vidi, vici". I like any other person would not want to be a slave but if I had the chance to conquer I would take it, all humans are like this. Human desire cannot be helped and when you are tempted you will see what happens I can assure you. Humans are instinctive and we live to dominate and to destroy. Whether you choose not to act upon animalistic tendencies is your choice but if you choose to act upon it then you are no different then the person claiming moral superiority. Morals are taught, they are not instinctive by any means and this can be easily debated. We are fashioned to accept right and wrong. I love most of the morals we have in our society but I also know they are not real. It is a very fickle duality we abide by.
I am not trying to stick up for Muhammad or make offense to him either. But he continued the laws of his land and there is nothing wrong with this. Slavery was an acceptable norm in the Bedouin and Arab society and this cannot be disputed. Muhammad had his own view of morals and they are no different then any other society. He reduced (not eliminated) a LOT of the inward fighting amongst the tribes of the Arabian lands as well. Comparing the morals of Muhammad's era to ours is pointless. If you walked the earth in his time and met him he would sincerely believe slavery is acceptable.
This reminds me when I visited a friend from Japan and during the course of our meal a LIVE shrimp was picked up by hashi and placed in a boiling pot of water and cooked alive! That act of cruelty was deemed normal and I know all to well not many Westerners could stomach eating something murdered in front of your very eyes. Morals are truly created so before condemning another person or culture please be aware of how they view you.
Evolution does not apply to our genetic bodies alone it also applies to our mindset and society.
Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
I think slavery in India stem from the caste system that was in place..The core hindu belief that God creates from different part of his body..the worker from his feet..the intellect from his head..What a load of bull IMO..and the foundations for problems like racism and slavery to build on..
The OP is trying to take the Quran out of context.. While when looked into their own scriptures..Krishna was a pervert who accepted the lustful proposal of children by hiding their clothes..
I think the problem of Indian slavery/prostitution is not a cause of Islam but the gradual cause of the long running hindu culture (but not solely that) the main cause is the lack of rubbers used by the Indians which in turn leads to over population..
The OP is pointing out how Islam is cruel to its women...what about the widows that used to be burned in hindu religion when their husbands passed? Is that not crueler than possessing and caring from something with your right hand??
Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
Bro you need to understand that Islam transcends all cultural boundaries..the Saudis are not what Islam should be based on..They have a Qabilah(Tribal) system in place..where respect/honor is given according to the tribe..that is the opposite of what Islam stands for..Some opinions that I took from spending several years in my teens in Saudi..People should stop thinking that Saudis are perfect Muslims..far from it..they just happen to occupy the land and hold power in the region during this era..
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Sumit
Sanatana Dharma
Brilliant, So by core hindu belief you mean Vedas (I think you are stating a verse from Rig VEda).
So dear the verse is Brahmin comes from mouth because they gives knowledge, shatriya from hands because they protect, farmers from stomach because they feed and shudras from feet because they are foundation of society. Than it further says that Brahman is formless and omnipresent this proves that Brahman has no feet, mouth or stomach but this is representation of society with knowledge, power, wealth and foundation.
Only Mahabharata is book about krishna, so can you explain where it is said so.
So let me tell you how sati practice started, during Mugal period muslims captured women after killing their husbands (as this is allowed acc to quran) but instead of becoming slave of muslims, hindu women decided to jump in fire but later this become evil practice. But today this practice is no more.
Here is statics from wiki
Because of higher birthrates, the percentage of Muslims in India has risen from about 9.91% in 1951 to 13.43% in 2001 to 14% in 2010.[8] The Muslim population growth rate is higher by more than 10% of the total growth compared to that of Hindus.[9]. In 2012 muslims are more than 18%.
Demographers have put forward several factors behind high birthrates among Muslims in India.Sociologists point out that religious factors can explain high Muslim birthrates. Surveys indicate that Muslims in India have been relatively far less willing to adopt family planning measures and that Muslim girls get married at a much younger age compared to other Indian girls.[10] According to Paul Kurtz, Muslims in India are much more resistant to modern contraceptive measures compared to other Indians and as a consequence, the decline in fertility rate among non- muslim women is much higher compared to that of Muslim women.
So who need family planning?? But on family planning muslim quote "childs are gift of Allah".
I think you have to keep in mind that practices such as owning slaves were widespread in the culture where Islam emerged. You can't exactly turn such a culture into a utopia overnight.
What Islam did was command people to treat their slaves justly and with mercy, not overwork them, etc. and then prescribe freeing slaves as an act that would gain you reward in the afterlife. So, freeing a slave was something that would bring you closer to Allah and rewards in Heaven.
I think that Islam made huge advances in terms of how slaves were treated, and it helped free many of them as well. Some Arab tribes used to beat their slaves before Islam, for example, but Islam greatly reduced that and encouraged people back then to treat slaves well and free them.
It seems to me that deep-rooted cultural practices are best changed by taking a gradual approach rather than an abrupt one, which is what Muhammad did at the time. He didn't just tell people "Free all slaves!"; he took it gradually and was eventually able to greatly change the prevalent practices in the culture.
What Islam did was command people to treat their slaves justly and with mercy, not overwork them, etc. and then prescribe freeing slaves as an act that would gain you reward in the afterlife. So, freeing a slave was something that would bring you closer to Allah and rewards in Heaven.
I think that Islam made huge advances in terms of how slaves were treated, and it helped free many of them as well. Some Arab tribes used to beat their slaves before Islam, for example, but Islam greatly reduced that and encouraged people back then to treat slaves well and free them.
It seems to me that deep-rooted cultural practices are best changed by taking a gradual approach rather than an abrupt one, which is what Muhammad did at the time. He didn't just tell people "Free all slaves!"; he took it gradually and was eventually able to greatly change the prevalent practices in the culture.
Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
I have always wondered why the suicide rate in india are among the highest in the world..turns out this is another problem that stems from Hindu belief of reincarnation...Its not considered dying..rather just coming back in another form (hopefully better)..No wonder indian farmers who owe even $200 debt commit suicide thinking they will come back in another life and can default on their debts..
The main point of my post was not pointing out contradiction in your scriptures..rather to show you that what you are trying to do..by criticising Islam goes both ways..there are far more contradictions in Hindu teachings than in Islamic ones..instead of approaching the problem the way that you have..with preformed opinions/hatred (I imagine that would be the case with a indian hindu) of Islam..it will not prove to be fruitful and a waste of time..so I advise you to treat others the way you will have them treat you..If you point a finger at Islam..that wont do any good..rather it will only cause the Muslims to find contradictions in your beliefs and religion..try to be constructive..the whole premise of this topic seems to point at the intentions of the OP to be quite contrary to what would be expected of a productive discussion..
Ask questions..dont state facts about a faith with your distorted perceptions..you will be caught out everytime.. ultimatly you are free to do whatever you want..but if you try to find contradictions in Islam what is to stop me from finding contradictions in your religion.. IMO hindu mythology solves the problem of the missing link scientists have been baffled about..Hanuman..half man half monkey..is he the missing link?
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Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
I had to do a sociology research paper for uni last term..some of the things I came across when looking into indian societies accpetance of technology were suprising.. there was a case were hindu villagers were being introduced to computers by placing it in Temples next to their Idols.I donot remember what the article was called..I will try add a link later.. goes to show..this indian problem is not just a hindu or muslim one..these issues are found in most third world countries..not to mention the biggest ones in terms of population
Sha'irullah
رسول الآلهة
I was a Salafi in my Muslim days so I know about Saudi Arabian Islam. Islam is not dictated by Saudi Arabia and I never said this in my earlier post. Although there are many Muslims who imitate Saudi Arabian culture believing it is true Islam and especially in countries like Malaysia. But that is another story since Saudi Arabia has nothing to do with this debate nor am I using them as a reference.
Also Islam is a religion that was birthed in a culture so it does not transcend cultural boundaries. One must perform Salat in Arabic and under stand Classical Arabic to understand the Quran. This applies for all religions, they are all centered around one culture.
Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
I agree that the recitation of the Quran in arabic is important..I dont see that as a problem tho..I believe the Quran when recited in arabic has magical qualities..I have performed an exorcism on a friend..using arabic verses of the Quran..english translation didnt have any affect..while as soon as I said Bismillah in arabic I would get a response and full attention of the entity..these are more personal opinions..you may or maynot believe in the Jinn..
It is true that religions are centered around one culture..how can they not be..I mean you couldnt have Muhammad simultaneously being born into different cultures..A human being is born of his parents..thus inheriting their culture..language etc..the religion of God when conveyed through a Humanbeing will always have the cultural flavoring of the messenger in question.
IMO other than the language of the Quran..I find Islamic teachings to be quite universal and applicable to people regardless of culture..You cannot change the language issue tho..unless a universal language of the world can be defined forever..English is the dominant language today..so the Quran in english would be more applicable today..but what happens in a couple hundred years when we will all be speaking chinese? What is more important is that we get past these cultural differences and realize that the core lessons of Islam do not only apply to Arabs..they apply to everyone..Islam is not based on Arabic culture..rather Arab culture is based on Islam..if that makes sense...Muhammad completely changed the arab culture..most of what Islam stands for is anti Arab(culturally)...I will stand by my earlier statement that Islam(submission to god) transcends all cultural boundaries..
Agreed..just wanted to point out the misconception in the Muslim world..
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Sumit
Sanatana Dharma
I don't criticize Islam, I criticize Quran.
Yes you are right. Hindus have thousands of Books and many of them are contradictory. That is why I do not follow Hinduism but I follow Vedic Religion .
You broke my heart now, I wasted a lot of time in learning Islam :sad4:
Please, I was not at all interested in religion (not even a little bit). But it was muslims who always criticized hindu scriptures and Hinduism. They try to prove their Prophet in Vedas, puranas. They try to declare Rama, Krishna as prophet of Allah to expend Islam by Brainwashing Hindus (they even didn't spared facebook, everyday a new photo is tagged to me that explains how my scriptures predict prophet Mohmammad and why should I follow Islam, once a perosn sent friendreq by Hindu name and than tagging a photo after few days with caption "converted to Islam from hinduism, feeling great satisfaction). They claim to convert India an Islamic nation in near future, a muslim MLA tried to ban prayer and Ramnavmi in Hyderabad. So this forced me to study Hinduism and Islam.
Come on, you didn't even answered me from Quranic verses, all you did is to write India India.
You are welcome, Hinduism is Oldest but quite modern. We request you to find contradiction in Hindusim. It will help us to understand Hinduism better.
May be but I am not very big fan of evolution nor I believe in flying donkeys to outer space, breaking of moon in two pieces, dipping fly in cup of tea etc.IMO hindu mythology solves the problem of the missing link scientists have been baffled about..Hanuman..half man half monkey..is he the missing link?
Matemkar
Active Member
Salam. Here's a good booklet on slavery: Slavery - Islamic and Christian Perspectives
about the right hand partof the quranic verse, shia muslims believe it is fixed-term marriage which you can study here: The Rights of Women in Islam (please skip to the second part which deals with this subject)
thanks. ma salam
about the right hand partof the quranic verse, shia muslims believe it is fixed-term marriage which you can study here: The Rights of Women in Islam (please skip to the second part which deals with this subject)
thanks. ma salam
Sumit
Sanatana Dharma
:namaste
Pakistan?? Why should I be angry with pakistan?? But When someone who instead of discussing Quran in Quranic section, starts asking ques about India than then it's my duty to answer him honestly . And that what I did.
Also I am not angry with Muslims, why should I waste my energy in that. However I am against Islam because they they don't mind their own business. They always try to prove Allah or Mohammad in scriptures of other religions. However when we ask question about their religion, they become frustrated and acts furiously as they have no other way to justify them because Allah did not allow them to doubt or ask question over Quran (see sura Al Baqarah 2:2).
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
:namaste
Pakistan?? Why should I be angry with pakistan?? But When someone who instead of discussing Quran in Quranic section, starts asking ques about India than then it's my duty to answer him honestly . And that what I did.
Also I am not angry with Muslims, why should I waste my energy in that. However I am against Islam because they they don't mind their own business. They always try to prove Allah or Mohammad in scriptures of other religions. However when we ask question about their religion, they become frustrated and acts furiously as they have no other way to justify them because Allah did not allow them to doubt or ask question over Quran (see sura Al Baqarah 2:2).
i have mentioned India as recorded to be among the highest in slavery and not because you are an Indian,but instead you return with a honest reply you show anger and blamed Pakistan and muslims,how funny is it.
Find a better propaganda against Islam than this absurd one.
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Sumit
Sanatana Dharma
A question for you. why instead of answering from Quran in Quranic debate section, you started debating on India. Does this proves Quran right??This clearly shows you can't even justify quran.
Those verses which Muslims can't defend are always absurd. However I don't need to search any propaganda against Islam. It's soo easy to debunk Quran. My teacher of quran is a former maulvi who is expert in Arabic, Urdu and Farsi.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
A question for you. why instead of answering from Quran in Quranic debate section, you started debating on India. Does this proves Quran right??This clearly shows you can't even justify quran.
To free a slave is a good deed in Islam and the result is no slaves in the muslim countries and i compared India as recorded to be the highest and the most worst among countries regarding slavery just to show you how Islam had good results in eliminating slavery.
The Noble Qur'ân Al-Baqarah 2:177
It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing. (2:177)
The Noble Qur'ân Al-Balad 90:11-18
But he hath not attempted the Ascent - (90:11)
Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! - (90:12)
(It is) to free a slave, (90:13)
And to feed in the day of hunger. (90:14)
An orphan near of kin, (90:15)
Or some poor wretch in misery, (90:16)
And to be of those who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity. (90:17)
Their place will be on the right hand. (90:18)
Those verses which Muslims can't defend are always absurd. However I don't need to search any propaganda against Islam. It's soo easy to debunk Quran. My teacher of quran is a former maulvi who is expert in Arabic, Urdu and Farsi.
Your propaganda against Islam about slavery is an absurd one.
if you think that you're doing a good job by debunking the words of god,then good luck with your efforts.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Tu quoque (Latin for "you, too" or "you, also") or the appeal to hypocrisy, is a logical fallacy that attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This dismisses someone's point of view based on criticism of the person's inconsistency, and not the position presented, whereas a person's inconsistency should not discredit their position.
-- Source: Tu quoque - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Let's not.