Slavery

[nPeace]

Yes. I think a world in which we don't blame women for being raped is a better world than the one you are advocating from ancient times.
That's just for starters.

Wow. Just Wow.
@Deeje, I think sometime persons either don't carefully read what is written, either in the Bible, or by Bible believers.
Or, they just deliberately read into what is said, what they think... based on their strong emotions against it.
Dear me.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The most powerful empire on earth fell because they failed to value the family and allowed decadence and immorality to rule them

That's not why the Roman Empire declined and broke up.

 

[nPeace]

I said the narrative for slavery. You haven't given that yet.

The narrative for slavery?
I feel like I am in a jungle... lost.
Please explain what you are talking about... please.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Wow. Just Wow.
@Deeje, I think sometime persons either don't carefully read what is written, either in the Bible, or by Bible believers.
Or, they just deliberately read into what is said, what they think... based on their strong emotions against it.
Dear me.

You haven't been paying attention to Deeje's posts, obviously.

 

[nPeace]

You haven't been paying attention to Deeje's posts, obviously.

I read through her response to you. That's why it's rated by me. How could I rate it, if I did not read it?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I read through her response to you. That's why it's rated by me. How could I rate it, if I did not read it?

If you don't see a problem with the posts I quoted here, I don't know what to say to you: Slavery

 

[nPeace]

You haven't been paying attention to Deeje's posts, obviously.

Thanks for sharing that post. I missed that, due to the fact that my time is often limited, so I sometimes barely have time to respond to posts, and peep at a few on the page.

From what I gathered here @Deeje is highlighting the situations that make rape an easy occurrence, and the responsibility that the victim may share.

I will start with the Bible example. i hope you are familiar with these accounts.
Dinah - she customarily visited with the girls in their cities, who did not serve her God.
She put herself in harms way.
For one thing, the girls she considered friends, did not value God's moral standards, so what might they have conversed about? Sex? Virginity? A handsome man? How it feels? ... Who knows?
we can only speculate. However, when you read the account carefully, there are a few things to note.
1) The Bible does not say Shechem grabbed hold of her, and raped her. Genesis 34:2
2) Her bothers killed Shechem and his men with the sword and then took Dinah from Shechem’s house, and left Genesis 34:26
Notice, she was in Shechem's house.

Questions
Whether one refers to it as rape, or not, one thing that is clear from reading the account, is, Dinah put herself in a compromising position, and one cannot determine that her feelings at the time may have been mixed, uncertain...
We can only speculate.
These situations occur today. some women, are indecisive, and men use that to their advantage, and take them. They may not be any violence involved, but oftentimes, manipulation, and persuasion.

Is that not one of the reasons there is such a thing as statutory rape?
a young mind, is much more vulnerable to manipulation, and uncertainty. No violence is used there.

In the case of Tamar, Ammon used his strength against her. however, he also took advantage of her vulnerability, and indecisiveness.
She was not party to the attack, because she was lured there under pretense.
Her indecisiveness cost her though, and failure to scream, as ell.

There are some blanks we can only speculate about though.
Did Tamar have any romantic feelings for her brother? Did they talk about it?
Interesting questions, since the Bible says,
(2 Samuel 13:1, 2) . . . Now David’s son Abʹsa·lom had a beautiful sister named Taʹmar, and David’s son Amʹnon fell in love with her. Amʹnon was so distressed that he became sick because of his sister Taʹmar, for she was a virgin and it seemed impossible for Amʹnon to do anything to her.

Ammon must have been "sick with desire".
However, please note...
(2 Samuel 13:11-14) ... he grabbed her and said: “Come, lie down with me, my sister.” But she said to him: “No, my brother! Do not humiliate me...
But he refused to listen to her, and he overpowered her and humiliated her by raping her.

I think I could see my sister saying, "What? Are you crazy? What's gotten into you? Then when I persist.... Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Then all the attendants come running, and catch me in the act.
That's a decisive girl, and what is more, it was a surprise that I even thought of such a thing.
Not so, the case with Tamar.

I'll tell you something though - true story. Someone deliberately commited adultery so that they could get a divorce from their mate, and marry the other person they pulled it off.
I don't know if Tamar was in love with her brother, but... hmmm.
We can only speculate.

In any case, we can see how the situations provided the opportunity for rape to be carried out, by those who saw the woman (particularly their beauty), and desired them.
Today, men only have to see....

Spoiler

and they want the woman.
All @Deeje is saying, i think, is that these are what most rapist look for, and what makes them "sick with desire".
Thus for women who put themselves in these positions, they may be creating the circumstances which are inviting to these 'rapists', and in that sense sharing some responsibility.

However, I am sure she is not saying that this is the only reason these women are raped, because men will rape a one, two, three.... ninety-nine year old, whether they are dressed, or not,
There is a saying, "Some men thirst after anything in a skirt". How true. Some men are just 'sick with thirst'.

I do like to see women dressed modestly though. it does prevent your eyes ... and mind, from wandering where you don't want them to.

Spoiler

Do you disagree with any of this?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Thanks for sharing that post. I missed that, due to the fact that my time is often limited, so I sometimes barely have time to respond to posts, and peep at a few on the page.

From what I gathered here @Deeje is highlighting the situations that make rape an easy occurrence, and the responsibility that the victim may share.

I will start with the Bible example. i hope you are familiar with these accounts.
Dinah - she customarily visited with the girls in their cities, who did not serve her God.
She put herself in harms way.
For one thing, the girls she considered friends, did not value God's moral standards, so what might they have conversed about? Sex? Virginity? A handsome man? How it feels? ... Who knows?
we can only speculate. However, when you read the account carefully, there are a few things to note.
1) The Bible does not say Shechem grabbed hold of her, and raped her. Genesis 34:2
2) Her bothers killed Shechem and his men with the sword and then took Dinah from Shechem’s house, and left Genesis 34:26
Notice, she was in Shechem's house.

Questions
Whether one refers to it as rape, or not, one thing that is clear from reading the account, is, Dinah put herself in a compromising position, and one cannot determine that her feelings at the time may have been mixed, uncertain...
We can only speculate.
These situations occur today. some women, are indecisive, and men use that to their advantage, and take them. They may not be any violence involved, but oftentimes, manipulation, and persuasion.

Is that not one of the reasons there is such a thing as statutory rape?
a young mind, is much more vulnerable to manipulation, and uncertainty. No violence is used there.

In the case of Tamar, Ammon used his strength against her. however, he also took advantage of her vulnerability, and indecisiveness.
She was not party to the attack, because she was lured there under pretense.
Her indecisiveness cost her though, and failure to scream, as ell.

There are some blanks we can only speculate about though.
Did Tamar have any romantic feelings for her brother? Did they talk about it?
Interesting questions, since the Bible says,
(2 Samuel 13:1, 2) . . . Now David’s son Abʹsa·lom had a beautiful sister named Taʹmar, and David’s son Amʹnon fell in love with her. Amʹnon was so distressed that he became sick because of his sister Taʹmar, for she was a virgin and it seemed impossible for Amʹnon to do anything to her.

Ammon must have been "sick with desire".
However, please note...
(2 Samuel 13:11-14) ... he grabbed her and said: “Come, lie down with me, my sister.” But she said to him: “No, my brother! Do not humiliate me...
But he refused to listen to her, and he overpowered her and humiliated her by raping her.

I think I could see my sister saying, "What? Are you crazy? What's gotten into you? Then when I persist.... Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Then all the attendants come running, and catch me in the act.
That's a decisive girl, and what is more, it was a surprise that I even thought of such a thing.
Not so, the case with Tamar.

I'll tell you something though - true story. Someone deliberately commited adultery so that they could get a divorce from their mate, and marry the other person they pulled it off.
I don't know if Tamar was in love with her brother, but... hmmm.
We can only speculate.

In any case, we can see how the situations provided the opportunity for rape to be carried out, by those who saw the woman (particularly their beauty), and desired them.
Today, men only have to see....

Spoiler

and they want the woman.
All @Deeje is saying, iI think, s that these are what most rapist look for, and what makes them "sick with desire".
Thus for women who put themselves in these positions, they may be creating the circumstances which are inviting to these 'rapists', and in that sense sharing some responsibility.

However, I am sure she is not saying that this is the only reason these women are raped, because men will rape a one, two, three.... ninety-nine year old, whether they are dressed, or not,
There is a saying, "Some men thirst after anything in a skirt". How true. Some men are just 'sick with thirst'.

I do like to see women dressed modestly though. it does prevent your eyes ... and mind, from wandering where you don't want them to.

Spoiler

Do you disagree with any of this?

Of course I disagree. You're doing the same victim blaming as Deeje, but are just trying to be more subtle about it. You're saying that it's partially a woman's fault for being raped if she is wearing exercise clothes or skirts and presenting men as out of control brutes who can't rein in their lust. Wtf. That's offensive and sexist towards both men and women. I'm a man and I like women but an attractive woman wearing revealing clothing doesn't really make me bat an eyelash. She can be totally naked for all I care. So I cannot understand people like you who think it's normal for males to go crazy just because a woman is wearing yoga pants. If you're a man and you think that, you need to be removed from society. If you're a woman who thinks that, you were probably brainwashed into thinking it or had bad experiences. I'm sorry, but it's not true.

 

[nPeace]

Of course I disagree. You're doing the same victim blaming as Deeje, but are just trying to be more subtle about it. You're saying that it's partially a woman's fault for being raped if she is wearing exercise clothes or skirts and presenting men as out of control brutes who can't rein in their lust. Wtf. That's offensive and sexist towards both men and women. I'm a man and I like women but an attractive woman wearing revealing clothing doesn't really make me bat an eyelash. She can be totally naked for all I care. So I cannot understand people like you who think it's normal for males to go crazy just because a woman is wearing yoga pants. If you're a man and you think that, you need to be removed from society. If you're a woman who thinks that, you were probably brainwashed into thinking it or had bad experiences. I'm sorry, but it's not true.

Tell me. If I live in a world where they are men who lurk in the shadows of dark alleys at night to do wicked deeds - rape, rob, and even murder, do I share responsibility if I venture into a dark alley at night, unaccompanied, and any of those things happen to me?
It's just a yes or no answer.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Tell me. If I live in a world where they are men who lurk in the shadows of dark alleys at night to do wicked deeds - rape, rob, and even murder, do I share responsibility if I venture into a dark alley at night, unaccompanied, and any of those things happen to me?
It's just a yes or no answer.

Lol, what is this? A '50s "safety" advert? No, if you're just walking along and minding your business, it's not your fault if you're attacked.

 

[nPeace]

Lol, what is this? A '50s "safety" advert? No, if you're just walking along and minding your business, it's not your fault if you're attacked.

I'll take the NO, and dismiss the added part.

If you believe that knowing of the dangers, and walking into is, is actually a wise, sensible thing, and you have not acted foolishly, and therefore you share responsibility for what you fell victim to, then I have only this to say.
The man that knows he can fall off a 30 foot scaffold, but is just minding his own business painting the building and does not use safety measures, shares no responsibility for his death, if a shift of wind plunges him onto the concrete below... according to what you just said.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'll take the NO, and dismiss the added part.

If you believe that knowing of the dangers, and walking into is, is actually a wise, sensible thing, and you have not acted foolishly, and therefore you share responsibility for what you fell victim to, then I have only this to say.
The man that knows he can fall off a 30 foot scaffold, but is just minding his own business painting the building and does not use safety measures, shares no responsibility for his death, if a shift of wind plunges him onto the concrete below... according to what you just said.

Just leaving your house can cause you to be harmed, so I guess we should never go anywhere. Hell, being home can harm us, too. Regardless, if you are doing nothing wrong yourself and someone attacks you, the attacker is culpable for what they did. Otherwise, the logical conclusion of your ludicrous view would lead to chaos.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

....because she had on what someone interpreted to be "immodest" or revealing clothing.

Revealing dress needs to be interpreted?
I think it’s pretty obvious what is revealing and what isn’t!

And @Deeje wasnt saying, nor even implying, total guilt was the immodest woman’s. Not even close. Men need to control themselves.
But rarely are actions that require adjudication 100% guilty or innocent. This world is proof of that.

 

[Deeje]

That's not why the Roman Empire declined and broke up.

Rome was not conquered by any outside enemy.......it fell in large measure due to its own moral decay from within. The fabric of society was treated with little regard and it unraveled...big time. We never learn the lessons of the past and are thus doomed to repeat them.

No, if you're just walking along and minding your business, it's not your fault if you're attacked.

You are reading way more into my posts than what I have actually said....I did not ever say that rape is always encouraged, and that women are always to blame.....but some men will not take no for an answer, once the process has begun consensually. A woman can't say "yes, yes, yes, and then when it gets too hot and sweaty, say "no, no, no"....not without accepting some of the blame herself.

Slavery

Putting yourself in harm's way is not a wise course. Walking along minding your own business is not what is being considered here....is it?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Rome was not conquered by any outside enemy......

Er, it was. Rome was sacked multiple times by "barbarians" (mostly Germanic tribes from the North forced to migrate south because of apparent climate and resource problems, as well as revenge for being horribly mistreated by the Romans). There are a number of reasons why the Roman Empire fell apart. The biggest was that it was simply too large to manage and they could not defend the frontier (hence Hadrian's Wall in Britain after they gave up and abandoned it). They were also hit with a number of natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions, fires and plagues. With those came economic collapse and socio-political unrest. Had nothing to do with morality or whatever.

The last Roman Emperor of the West was overthrown by a Germanic warrior who basically ended the Roman system and established himself as King of Italy.

A woman can't say "yes, yes, yes, and then when it gets too hot and sweaty, say "no, no, no"....not without accepting some of the blame herself.

Yes, she can. You can change your mind with someone at any time. Girls have changed their minds with me. I had one woman who showed me nudes, we seduced each other, she invited me over to spend the night and I was expecting sex as that was where it was going but she changed her mind. It hurt and I felt rejected. I cried as I tried to sleep in a spare bedroom. But you get over it. Sometimes my SO isn't in the mood, either. If I forced myself on them, that would be totally my fault, not theirs. You always have right to say no or change your mind, and it is the duty of the other person to honor that. Otherwise they have no honor.

 

[Deeje]

Er, it was. Rome was sacked multiple times by "barbarians" (mostly Germanic tribes from the North forced to migrate south because of apparent climate and resource problems, as well as revenge for being horribly mistreated by the Romans). There are a number of reasons why the Roman Empire fell apart. The biggest was that it was simply too large to manage and they could not defend the frontier (hence Hadrian's Wall in Britain after they gave up and abandoned it). They were also hit with a number of natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions, fires and plagues. With those came economic collapse and socio-political unrest. Had nothing to do with morality or whatever.

The last Roman Emperor of the West was overthrown by a Germanic warrior who basically ended the Roman system and established himself as King of Italy.

Regardless of the details, history attests to the fact that a large part of Rome's failure was due to its own failures from within.....there is no uncertainty about Rome's moral decay.......but this is off topic.

Yes, she can. You can change your mind with someone at any time. Girls have changed their minds with me. I had one woman who showed me nudes, we seduced each other, she invited me over to spend the night and I was expecting sex as that was where it was going but she changed her mind. It hurt and I felt rejected. I cried as I tried to sleep in a spare bedroom. But you get over it. Sometimes my SO isn't in the mood, either. If I forced myself on them, that would be totally my fault, not theirs. You always have right to say no or change your mind, and it is the duty of the other person to honor that. Otherwise they have no honor.

I think you are missing the main point of the discussion. We are not talking about people with little or no morality in the world of today....its a far cry from the morality of the world of Bible times......In Israel, sex was strictly prohibited unless you were married to the person, male or female. Christianity carried that same set of laws....no marriage, no sex. Fornication and adultery were punishable by death in Bible times....that was God's standards back then, and they have never changed just because humans discarded his rules to suit themselves.
We either choose to follow God's standards or discard them along with the world.....a world that Christ told us to be NO part of.

Sex should never be forced even in marriage......its about respect and love, considering the needs of your partner as much as your own. Today, for the majority, sex is not about love....it is based purely on lust.

If you wish to engage in fornication or adultery, that is your free willed choice to make.....but don't expect God to overlook it. You can't turn God on and off like a faucet just because you change your mind about him....and you can't turn some men on and off like a faucet either....the rape often becomes payback to the woman for leading them on and then changing their mind. The lust becomes replaced by violence and domination.

So, we either live by God's standards or we don't....as a Catholic, did you have illicit sex and expect God to just overlook it?...or could you go to confession and get absolution from the priest so that you could go out and do it again? Whose moral standards did you observe? And when you go over to the other side, does it alter your standards at all?

I believe that we will all account to the same judge at the end of the day. Time will tell I guess.....

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

.the rape often becomes payback to the woman for leading them on and then changing their mind.

Yikes, again. Deeje, I hope you know that my discussions with you over the years are one example that weigh on my mind when it comes to how Christians have treated me.

Don't worry, according to you, I won't even be resurrected. I'll die and cease to exist for eternity according to you, so who cares. You shouldn't as I would just be taking up more space on your imagined "paradise earth". Best to let as many of us wink out of existence as possible so you can have more real estate for yourself to enjoy. Have fun.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Lol, "illicit sex". I'm a 30 year old adult who has had relationships with other adults and isn't a virgin. Oh, no. How horrible. Into the flames of Gehenna I go.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sure. I'm sure the magnitude is always small from your subjective opinion. How could it ever be anything else?
After all. It's TagliatelliMonster.
I'd be most surprised if you did take it to heart.

Spoiler

Don't let it grow your head any bigger.

I make plenty of mistakes.
Just not on that scale.

As for taking things to heart... You should reflect on the magnitude of the nonsense you wrote there. It is extremely telling concerning the extreme and absurd lengths you go to try and defend the undefendable. All this was a result of you trying to claim that children are the property of parents, and the only reason you were trying to argue that is to defend the undefendable, barbaric and primitive concept of biblical slavery where slaves actually are the property of their masters.

Maybe you should reflect on that.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The world's attitudes have though, but God will not bring his standards down to suit us....

Ha.

So much for trying to claim that god "accommodated" for the culture of the past when slavery was the norm among humans.

So, the implication of what you are saying here is that regardless of what humans think, god considers slavery to be a moral practice.

Good job.

.we have to elevate our standards to suit him.

To go back to allow slavery again would be to LOWER our moral standards, to bring them down to this god's barbaric level