Slavery

[SkepticThinker]

Oh dear....you don't think that culture had anything to do with what happened in every day Israelite life?

Plonked into todays world it seems ridiculous....but in that time period, its the way things were....no one expected anything different. Go back to the way things were even at the turn of last century and plonk them into today's world....they'd be horrified....it would be like living on a different planet.

The shrimp were subject to a very virulent form of bacteria that could kill you. It was a hygiene issue, which is why food was divided into "clean" and "unclean" categories.
They knew about quarantine too......I'm sure that if you saw what shrimp feed on, you'd never eat them.

The reason for not mixing the threads is unknown, but perhaps it had something to do with the wearability of the fabric, making the garment lose shape or wear out too quickly. There was a rule about putting new wine in old wineskins too....no one wanted the skins to burst and lose their contents.



Women knew their place and survived in spite of their somewhat inferior status in those times....In Israelite society, their women were valued according to Proverbs 31:10-31.....they were not just chattels in the kitchen, put on earth to serve their husbands and bear them children....but to complement them as part of a team, fulfilling many roles and directing a large family, teaching them to become self-sufficient adults.

Also, I think you will find that it was a seduction, not a rape. If the woman failed to fight off her attacker or to scream, she was assumed to be a willing party. The moral of the story is if you don't want to marry this woman keep your hand off her.

That still applies in my religion....no sex before marriage. It makes for longer lasting relationships.

This all sounds suspiciously like moral relativism to me.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Oh dear....you don't think that culture had anything to do with what happened in every day Israelite life?

Plonked into todays world it seems ridiculous....but in that time period, its the way things were....no one expected anything different. Go back to the way things were even at the turn of last century and plonk them into today's world....they'd be horrified....it would be like living on a different planet.

The shrimp were subject to a very virulent form of bacteria that could kill you. It was a hygiene issue, which is why food was divided into "clean" and "unclean" categories.
They knew about quarantine too......I'm sure that if you saw what shrimp feed on, you'd never eat them.

The reason for not mixing the threads is unknown, but perhaps it had something to do with the wearability of the fabric, making the garment lose shape or wear out too quickly. There was a rule about putting new wine in old wineskins too....no one wanted the skins to burst and lose their contents.



Women knew their place and survived in spite of their somewhat inferior status in those times....In Israelite society, their women were valued according to Proverbs 31:10-31.....they were not just chattels in the kitchen, put on earth to serve their husbands and bear them children....but to complement them as part of a team, fulfilling many roles and directing a large family, teaching them to become self-sufficient adults.

Also, I think you will find that it was a seduction, not a rape. If the woman failed to fight off her attacker or to scream, she was assumed to be a willing party. The moral of the story is if you don't want to marry this woman keep your hand off her.

That still applies in my religion....no sex before marriage. It makes for longer lasting relationships.

I just noticed this appalling comment.

So the moral of the story appears to be, if you want a woman bad enough, you should overpower her and rape her, then she'll be forced to be yours forever, that is, as long as she can't fight you off.
What do you find particularly moral about something so disgusting?

Once upon a time there was a man who used to stalk me everywhere I went to the point that I was quite scared of him. The police wouldn't do much about it. According to this lovely Biblical morality you are espousing here, he should have just raped me, I probably wouldn't have been able to fight him off because he was much, much bigger than I am, and then I'd have to be his wife. Yay for me! Still trying to figure out what's moral about that.

 

[SkepticThinker]

God allows injustices to this day. He does not cause or condone it, though.

In the cases where a woman did not scream, when someone 'raped' her, whereas not by force - all rape is not forced - it was just that the two Israelites be married.

Why?
One cannot prove a girl did not give in to a man's advances, just by listening to her account.
If the woman did demonstrate that she did not consent. it would be known, unless 1) she is dumb (speechless), or 2) in an isolated area where she screamed but was not heard. In that case, God dealt with the matter, and the rapist was put to death.

I assume one who reads the Bible - not closed minded and critically - would know those scriptures.

How would a person go about demonstrating that they did not consent?

How come God never put my rapist to death? Or anyone else's these days?

 

[viole]

Thanks to our Bible study.

Leading to the conclusion that the Bible endorses the owing of other human beings as property.
And that, directly from the source of your morality. Congratulations.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Deeje]

I just noticed this appalling comment.

Putting yesterday’s cultural differences into today’s world...I guess you would consider it appalling.....but it’s the 21st century and I guess today’s moral standards...or lack of them makes for a better world then....?

 

[Deeje]

Leading to the conclusion that the Bible endorses the owing of other human beings as property.

Which in those days meant a roof over their head and food in their bellies...and laws to protect them. Is that somehow worse than being filthy and homeless on the street with hungry children?

Many forms of employment are actually worse, depending on where you live. Even in democratic countries like the US, people are pretty much slaves to their employers. Most of their waking hours are spent making him money. Some barely make ends meet with three jobs. Is that a better system?

Does slavery fit in today’s world.....I still see it...don’t you?

And that, directly from the source of your morality. Congratulations.

Talking of morality....can you show me how today’s morality or lack of it, makes life today somehow superior?

The internet is full of child pornography and those who feed on it are actually taking children from their families and trafficking them to feed the appetites of more pedophiles. Is that freedom?

Children are growing up without knowing what a family is....there are no role models and a “father figure” is often Mom’s latest boyfriend. These kids grow up with a distorted view of how to be a mother or father. Like animals, they breed and move on....is that a good thing?

We live in a world where sexual morality is fast disappearing and we are reaping what we have sown. STD’s are rampant, but seen as inevitable these days....you seldom hear about them because they are an expected side effect of today’s ‘morality’. Antibiotics just make the bugs stronger, until there is nowhere to go to defeat them. Is this a good advocate for sexual freedom in your estimations?

Sorry, but I feel like a foreigner in this world, longing to go home....I believe that many so called freedoms are highly overrated. And biblical morality still has a place.

 

[viole]

Does slavery fit in today’s world.....I still see it...don’t you?

Well, apart from showing us that God is not worse than humans, I am not sure what your point is.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Deeje]

Well, apart from showing us that God is not worse than humans, I am not sure what your point is.

You said..."Leading to the conclusion that the Bible endorses the owing of other human beings as property."

Slavery is still here in the world...it has nothing to do with God.....God does not endorse it....
In Israel, it was simply a means to earn a living. The poor at least had the ability to work and earn their keep.

 

[viole]

In Israel, it was simply a means to earn a living. The poor at least had the ability to work and earn their keep.

If they were not Hebrew. Which is a bit suspicious, if you ask me.

Ciao

- viole

 

[thomas t]

Rape and slavery; "Eh, I'll allow it."

Eating shrimp or wearing mixed fabrics; "Kill them!"

Into the dumpster with this depiction of god.

No, I won't throw the Bible into the dumpster. For me, it is a Holy Book.
In contrast to @Deeje from the Jehova Witnesses' side, I won't play rape down and call it "seduction" and later say the Biblcal standards for sexuality have some bearing for me today.
Even in the Bible, rape is still rape.

In my opinion, if the rape survivors of back then didn't see a problem marrying a rapist... then there is no reason for God to not order it.
See 2. Samuel 13:16. The rape survivor wanted to marry the rapist and her problem was that she couldn't. See 2 Samuel 13:19.

The God of the Bible is not weak and not pitiful.... and the Bible is not a product of man but inspired by God, I think.

 

[curious_mind]

How would a person go about demonstrating that they did not consent?

How come God never put my rapist to death? Or anyone else's these days?

It is terrible that you were raped but that is the job of the law. Why did you police force not investigate it properly? That would be the bigger question.

I also think the diversion this thread has taken is a bit odd, why not keep it on the topic of slavery?

 

[Father Heathen]

Putting yesterday’s cultural differences into today’s world...I guess you would consider it appalling.....but it’s the 21st century and I guess today’s moral standards...or lack of them makes for a better world then....?

So by that logic gay marriage is morally okay since it's culturally accepted. If god conceded to the horrible culture of ancient, primitive savages then he concedes to the sensible culture of modern, civilized people today, right?

 

[Father Heathen]

Putting yesterday’s cultural differences into today’s world...I guess you would consider it appalling.....but it’s the 21st century and I guess today’s moral standards...or lack of them makes for a better world then....?

Yes, morality based on reason and compassion is vastly superior to the "morality" of irrational, arbitrary, and unsubstantiated superstitions that sanctioned horrible injustices and inhumane abuses. Into the garbage with such filth.

 

[Father Heathen]

In my opinion, if the rape survivors of back then didn't see a problem marrying a rapist... then there is no reason for God to not order it.
See 2. Samuel 13:16. The rape survivor wanted to marry the rapist and her problem was that she couldn't. See 2 Samuel 13:19.

So forcing rape victims to marry their attacker was okay because that's what they all wanted anyway?

"Golly, that sure was an extremely painful and traumatic experience. I wish I was forced to endure that on a daily basis. Sigh, if only I was forced to marry the man whose memory alone triggers panic attacks and nightmares."

Uh, nope.

 

[thomas t]

So forcing rape victims to marry their attacker was okay because that's what they all wanted anyway?

when you want to convict the God of the Bible to have committed atrocity in saying a rape victim and her perpetrator should marry,... the onus is on you to show that the victim wanted to actually NOT marry him.
It's like in court: you want to convict... you present the evidence.
If you can't, then I take your post as presumption.
I presented a case in which not marrying the man was considered a nightmare for the victim, in my last post. You didn't present anything.

This rule in today's Western world would be horrible, I think, here we agree.

 

[Father Heathen]

when you want to convict the God of the Bible to have committed atrocity in saying a rape victim and her perpetrator should marry,... the onus is on you to show that the victim wanted to actually NOT marry him.
It's like in court: you want to convict... you present the evidence.
If you can't, then I take your post as presumption.
I presented a case in which not marrying the man was considered a nightmare for the victim, in my last post. You didn't present anything.

This rule in today's Western world would be horrible, I think, here we agree.

Really? I have to prove that people don't like being raped? Gtfo...

 

[thomas t]

Really? I have to prove that people don't like being raped? Gtfo...

I said: prove that the women of back then would have preferred to not marry the rapist who raped her.
I provided a case in which a woman had a problem with not being able to marry the rapist she fell victim to.

gtfo... is in my opinion an impolite exression.

 

[Father Heathen]

I said: prove that the women of back then would have preferred to not marry the rapist who raped her.
I provided a case in which a woman had a problem with not being able to marry the rapist she fell victim to.

gtfo... is in my opinion an impolite exression.

Prove that ancient christians didn't enjoy being fed to lions.

 

[Shaul]

This depends on how you define slavery. There is chattel slavery in which the slave is considered property without any rights whatsoever. Then there is forced servitude in which the person is forced to work but still has some rights.

One difficulty is that there are not separate words in Hebrew for these two different things. The same word is also used for non-forced servants. Adding to confusion among Gentiles about Torah as it applies to slavery. No, the Torah doesn’t allow the chattel slavery but does give rules governing non-chattel servants. Even a forced servant has rights according to Torah. Judaism is the first religion to forbid chattel slavery.

 

[Deeje]

So by that logic gay marriage is morally okay since it's culturally accepted. If god conceded to the horrible culture of ancient, primitive savages then he concedes to the sensible culture of modern, civilized people today, right?

If God made laws to govern human morality, then why would he change them? They reflect his moral standards, not ours. Sexual morality was a large part of Israel's laws and left them in no doubt about how God felt about all human sexual activity because it was the means to transmit life....a sacred thing to the Creator.

Don't like it? You don't have to.

The horrible cultural standards of ancient times were made by man, not God. His laws protected his own people, who would have been happy to mind their own business and live their lives and worship their God without conflict.

Those who were part of cultures outside of Israel, were often barbaric and reflected the character of the gods they worshipped. Israel didn't go on the offensive because they did not desire the land of others....they already had their land that was God-given. Israel did however, become defensive of their land because others wanted to invade it. They had sanction to defend their land. They also had options as to what else could be done with those invaders. It had to be a strong deterrent to any who would take them on. To attack Israel was to take on their God.....he had to be bigger and badder than their gods.

Yes, morality based on reason and compassion is vastly superior to the "morality" of irrational, arbitrary, and unsubstantiated superstitions that sanctioned horrible injustices and inhumane abuses. Into the garbage with such filth.

Is it your assumption that God's moral laws were "irrational, arbitrary and unsubstantiated"? It has been demonstrated all through history that disregard for those moral laws added greatly to human suffering. Sexually transmitted diseases have plagued mankind since time immemorial. If sex was meant to be a free for all, then surely no disease would result from engaging in it.
e.g....a monogamous heterosexual couple could engage in sex as much as they liked without ever having an STD as a result. But those engaging with multiple sexual partners will find that these diseases are not far away. They are then passed on to any future sexual partners.

Homosexuals too have their own issues with disease and the physical effects of unnatural sexual activity.
Antibiotics used to treat these diseases will inevitably become useless as these pathogens mutate and become resistant as we are seeing now with the superbugs that are emerging in hospitals with no weapon to combat them.

So, God's laws are protective, reasonable, rational and have substantiated evidence of their benefits.