Smoking Gun, Oh Atheists?

[Milton Platt]

God created Adam and Eve. Did He create them with DNA or did they lack DNA when they propagated children, do you think?

I have been shown no evidence that a god created anything, and I certainly have sen n evidence that the human species began with a pair of deity created humans. You are just presupposing a god and then making up the rest based upon that assumption.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Interesting--I know Christians who ascribe all to a predestinarian God and others, free will. They both anchor their beliefs in the scriptures.

So who's right and who's wrong?

Or is the Bible not a reliable source of guidance?

 

[Milton Platt]

Please provide your alternative explanation, then, and how it suits the issue at hand, Occam's, etc.

Maybe we are talking past each other? Or maybe I am misunderstanding the point of this thread.

There can be multiple interpretations of a Bible passage but only one correct one. Either Christ is risen or not, we are sinner or not, sin can be redeemed or not, etc.

There can also be no correct interpretation. Or partially correct. What universally excepted standard can everyone everywhere agree is an infallible way to interpret the Bible?
There is none......

Again, what does a court of law have to with correctly interpreting the Bible?

 

[Underhill]

Here are a few to digest, thanks! There are more listed in the article that the title suggests. The whole thing is provocative:

10 Prophecies Fulfilled in 1948

That's funny, because I count exactly one prophecy there repeated in 10 different places. And it is the biggest self fulfilling prophecy in history. The Christians tried to fulfill it during the Crusades (thought they had for a while). It isn't all that surprising that the nations of the world who just happen to believe in christianity (the US and Europe) managed to make it happen at an opportune time.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You can't remember what you wrote two posts back? YOU said the Bible contains no explanatory narratives. I corrected you, and you challenge me that besides the Bible, the Qu'ran has narratives of explanatory power also.

Except the Bible doesn't EXPLAIN anything. By your logic, any narrative is "explanatory" just because it presents an idea. Fact is, the Bible contains no explanatory power whatsoever.

 

[JustWondering]

God created people, yes. People are in large part adjusted by environment. So that we recognize good and bad parenting, for example.

In a court of law, however, you cannot defend your actions saying, "God made me a murderer/rapist/paedophile, etc." Human jurors know humans are self-willed and place the blame for your sin . . . on your shoulders, not God's.

Only skeptics insist on placing the blame for every person's sin on God. Why?

Let's simplify this since you are obviously missing the entire point. Imagine this:

I programmer creates an extremely detailed virtual world that is inhabited by extremely detailed virtual people. He programmed the virtual people with all their instincts and desires, which includes greed, lust, envy, and the capacity for violence. How they think and therefore make all their decisions is also defined by the programming the programmer gave them, they can't program themselves right? The programmer than releases them into his virtual world that draws out the instincts and desires the virtual people had put in them. However, the programmer doesn't like it when his virtual people act on certain instincts, especially ones that have to do with greed, lust, and violence. He begins deleting the virtual people that displease him.

Wouldn't it have been better and easier for the programmer to not put things he finds offensive in his own creation? Is it the virtual peoples fault they were programmed for greed, lust and violence that was further aggravated by being put in an environment that drew those attributes out? By your "logic", the virtual people shoulder ALL the blame for their actions, that displeased the programmer, and the programmer is faultless and blameless. Even though their very capacity for thought and decision making was given to them by their creator your "logic" proposes the creation is at complete fault. Do you still not see how your reasoning is flawed?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Because a "true" church tells people in at-risk or unhealthy behaviors or emotional upsets "Jesus loves you! Let's work together as partners to resolve your conflicts!" and not "you are a demon-possessed sinner!"

Even presenting it as a conflict creates conflict. It left me reaching for a knife one night that was fortunately missing. The only thing that was unhealthy was believing what I should have been doing long time ago would get me one way ticket to Hell. What is emotionally upsetting is when you believe something that leaves you so depressed people just look at you and ask what's wrong. Thinking of this as some sort of conflict left me crying to sleep most nights. Now, I laugh and smile more than I ever have and I'm feeling way more better than I ever thought possible.
The other interesting part is I used to be very bitter for awhile towards Christians and all of Christianity. I saw no difference between denomination, interpretation, or individual beliefs, I didn't like them, didn't trust them, and did think lesser of them. But then it was an Episcopalian priest who actually does focus on the message of love and peace and goodwill who tore that wall down for me. He was also the first Christian I knew of who accepted LBGT people, and after his experiences with a group I was a part of he decided to announce he was openly welcoming them into his church. He did lose about half his congregation over it though.

Counseling can help you reframe and learn from the past. You and the church that abused you both have issues to ponder.

Thanks for the assumption. And, JFYI, I have long gotten over those issues. So much that I find it almost hard to believe it myself that I used to have suicidal thoughts and was going to do it once. But it is my experience, and it isn't unusual. And many do not survive it. For LBGT youth, school is one thing, but at place where the message is love and mercy but it leaves you having nightmares of hell that are vivid enough to feel the fire burning your skin, all because you're taught you're very identity is an abomination.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So who's right and who's wrong?

Or is the Bible not a reliable source of guidance?

There can be only correct interpretation on a doctrine. Either Christ rose or didn't, either trusting Christ saves you or not.

Free will is the correct interpretation IMHO. The Bible is a reliable source of guidance if one is open to being guided.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I have been shown no evidence that a god created anything, and I certainly have sen n evidence that the human species began with a pair of deity created humans. You are just presupposing a god and then making up the rest based upon that assumption.

Please remember what you most recently posted before shifting the posts.

I was responding to your challenge to me that God didn't create DNA. If God made the first people, and these people could procreate, He designed their DNA. DNA has so many elements of design in its construction and operation that it is silly on its face to deny a DNA Creator.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There can be only correct interpretation on a doctrine. Either Christ rose or didn't, either trusting Christ saves you or not.

So the Bible can't contain both views? It's a collection of many works written by multiple authors over centuries. Inconsistencies are to be expected, IMO. Sure, the "long list" of scriptures was filtered synods and councils based on doctrinal consistency to end up with the Bible we have, but people are imperfect... and committees even moreso.

Free will is the correct interpretation IMHO. The Bible is a reliable source of guidance if one is open to being guided.

...though it's unclear enough that devout Christians sincerely attempting to understand what it says can sometimes come to opposite views on key issues, right?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I don't understand what a court of law (I presume a U.S. court of law?) has to to with the subject

Jurisprudence is based in part on precedent law, common sense, logic and notions of justice. Since no court in the world uses "God made me!" as an excuse, why do skeptics hurl this in the face of people who point out--accurately--that all are imperfect, that all people do things their conscience tells them not to do? Why blame God for my evil or yours?

This constant blameshifting underscores why Christians believe skeptics have moral/sinful/denial objections to God, not logical/scientific objections.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That's funny, because I count exactly one prophecy there repeated in 10 different places. And it is the biggest self fulfilling prophecy in history. The Christians tried to fulfill it during the Crusades (thought they had for a while). It isn't all that surprising that the nations of the world who just happen to believe in christianity (the US and Europe) managed to make it happen at an opportune time.

You count funny, if you don't mind my saying so. Did you read the page I linked to? From the page at: 10 Prophecies Fulfilled in 1948

1948

• Israel will be reestablished as a nation. Isaiah 11:11
• British ships will be the first to bring the Jewish people home. Isaiah 60:9
• Israel will come back as one nation, not two. Hosea 1:11; Ezekiel 37:18,19,22
• Israel will be reestablished by a leader named David. Hosea 3:5
• The revived state will be named Israel. Ezekiel 37:11
• The Star of David will be on the Israeli flag. Isaiah 11:10
• The nation will be reestablished in the ancient land of Canaan. Jeramiah 30:2,3; Ezekiel 37:12
• Israel will no longer speak of being freed from Egypt. Jeramiah 16:14,15
• Israel will not be restored as a monarchy. Micah 5:5
• Israel will be established on the date predicted. Daniel 4; Ezekiel 4:4-6
• The Hebrew language will be revived in Israel. Jeramiah 31:23
• Jerusalem will be divided. Zechariah 14:1-3
• JorDaniel will occupy the West Bank. Zephaniah 2:8; Zechariah 12:1-7
• Israel will be initially restored without Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:1-7
• Israel will have a fierce military (fire-pot). Zechariah 12:1-7; Isaiah 41
• Dead Sea Scrolls will be found. Isaiah 29:1-4
• Israel will be reestablished by the fourth craftsman. Zechariah 1:18-21
• The Jewish people will come back in unbelief. Ezekiel 37:7-8,11
• First Shepherd will arise. Micah 5:5-8

1949

• Yemenite Jews will return. Isaiah 43:3-7

1951

• Israel will control Ashkelon. Zechariah 9:1-8

1953

• Egypt will no longer have kings (Suez crises). Zechariah 10:9-11

1967

• Second Shepherd will arise. Micah 5:5-8
• The 1967 war will occur on the date predicted. Daniel 5
• Five Egyptian cities will be conquered by the Israelis.Isaiah 19:16-18
• JorDaniel will give up the West Bank. Zechariah 12:6
• West Bank Jews will go home to Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:6

1968

• Israel will control Ashdod. Zechariah 9:1-8

1973

• Yom Kippur War will occur. Micah 5:5-8
• Jerusalem will be a burden to all nations. Zechariah 12:2,3

1980

• The shekel will be revived as Israeli currency. Ezekiel 45:1,2

1981

• Third Shepherd will arise. Micah 5:5-8
• Israel will attack Iraqi (Nuclear) facility. Micah 5:5-8

1982

• Israel will give back the Sinai peninsula. Zechariah 10:6
• First Lebanese War will occur (fire-pot). Zechariah 12:6

1989

• The Berlin Wall will fall. Ezekiel 38:4-6

1990

• Ethiopian Jews will be brought to Israel. Isaiah 18:1-7

~2000

• Cities will be restored and Israel will have non-Jewish farmers. Isaiah 61:4,5; Zephaniah 2
• Jerusalem will grow beyond its old walls. Zechariah 2:4,5
• Land of Israel will be divided by its rivers and by Muslims. Isaiah 18:1-7
• Tourists will fly in and support Israel. Isaiah 60:8-10; Isaiah 61
• There will be constant planting and reaping (crops). Amos 9:13-15
• Forests will reappear in Israel (cedar, etc). Isaiah 41:18-20
• Desolate land and cities will be restored. Ezekiel 36:33-36
• Five cities will stay desolate. Matthew 11:20-24
• Muslims will not reckon Israel among nations. Numbers 23:9
• Israel will inherit remnant of Edom/Palestinians. Amos 9:12
• Satellite-Television Communication Systems invented. Revelation 17:8

2004

• Sanhedrin will be reestablished. Matthew 24:15,20

2005

• Palestinians will want Jerusalem as their capital. Ezekiel 36:2,7,10-11
• Gaza will be forsaken. Zephaniah 2:4
• Russia and Iran will sign a military defense pact. Ezekiel 38:3-8

2006

• Second Lebanese War will occur. Psalm 83:1-18

2010

• Turkey makes a military pact with Russia. Ezekiel 38:3-8

 

[BilliardsBall]

Let's simplify this since you are obviously missing the entire point. Imagine this:

I programmer creates an extremely detailed virtual world that is inhabited by extremely detailed virtual people. He programmed the virtual people with all their instincts and desires, which includes greed, lust, envy, and the capacity for violence. How they think and therefore make all their decisions is also defined by the programming the programmer gave them, they can't program themselves right? The programmer than releases them into his virtual world that draws out the instincts and desires the virtual people had put in them. However, the programmer doesn't like it when his virtual people act on certain instincts, especially ones that have to do with greed, lust, and violence. He begins deleting the virtual people that displease him.

Wouldn't it have been better and easier for the programmer to not put things he finds offensive in his own creation? Is it the virtual peoples fault they were programmed for greed, lust and violence that was further aggravated by being put in an environment that drew those attributes out? By your "logic", the virtual people shoulder ALL the blame for their actions, that displeased the programmer, and the programmer is faultless and blameless. Even though their very capacity for thought and decision making was given to them by their creator your "logic" proposes the creation is at complete fault. Do you still not see how your reasoning is flawed?

I appreciate your taking time to share with me your viewpoint, and to detail your analogy.

All you need to add is that the programmer allowed for free will. It is a misstatement to say he programmed precise, varying amounts of good and evil in persons. Christians will be rewarded in Heaven for voluntary, free will choices to do the right thing. Others will be punished for pursuing evil despite God's attempts to influence them to choose good.

People are neither robots nor software packages. However, I can say that we are analogous to good working programs infected by viruses. Trusting Christ is the way to inoculate and isolate the viruses that we may function as optimally designed!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You count funny, if you don't mind my saying so. Did you read the page I linked to? From the page at: 10 Prophecies Fulfilled in 1948

1948

• Israel will be reestablished as a nation. Isaiah 11:11
• British ships will be the first to bring the Jewish people home. Isaiah 60:9

I won't deal with the first one, since we're already doing it to death, but let's look at the second one. Here's the verse:

Surely bcthe isles shall wait for me,

And dthe ships of cTarshish first,

eTo bring fthy sons from far,

gTheir silver and their gold with them,

hUnto the name of the Lord thy God,

And ito the Holy One of Israel, ibecause he hath glorified thee.

You think that "Tarshish" in the Bible means "Britain"?

 

[Underhill]

You count funny, if you don't mind my saying so. Did you read the page I linked to? From the page at: 10 Prophecies Fulfilled in 1948

1948

• Israel will be reestablished as a nation. Isaiah 11:11
• British ships will be the first to bring the Jewish people home. Isaiah 60:9
• Israel will come back as one nation, not two. Hosea 1:11; Ezekiel 37:18,19,22
• Israel will be reestablished by a leader named David. Hosea 3:5
• The revived state will be named Israel. Ezekiel 37:11
• The Star of David will be on the Israeli flag. Isaiah 11:10
• The nation will be reestablished in the ancient land of Canaan. Jeramiah 30:2,3; Ezekiel 37:12
• Israel will no longer speak of being freed from Egypt. Jeramiah 16:14,15
• Israel will not be restored as a monarchy. Micah 5:5
• Israel will be established on the date predicted. Daniel 4; Ezekiel 4:4-6
• The Hebrew language will be revived in Israel. Jeramiah 31:23
• Jerusalem will be divided. Zechariah 14:1-3
• JorDaniel will occupy the West Bank. Zephaniah 2:8; Zechariah 12:1-7
• Israel will be initially restored without Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:1-7
• Israel will have a fierce military (fire-pot). Zechariah 12:1-7; Isaiah 41
• Dead Sea Scrolls will be found. Isaiah 29:1-4
• Israel will be reestablished by the fourth craftsman. Zechariah 1:18-21
• The Jewish people will come back in unbelief. Ezekiel 37:7-8,11
• First Shepherd will arise. Micah 5:5-8

1949

• Yemenite Jews will return. Isaiah 43:3-7

1951

• Israel will control Ashkelon. Zechariah 9:1-8

1953

• Egypt will no longer have kings (Suez crises). Zechariah 10:9-11

1967

• Second Shepherd will arise. Micah 5:5-8
• The 1967 war will occur on the date predicted. Daniel 5
• Five Egyptian cities will be conquered by the Israelis.Isaiah 19:16-18
• JorDaniel will give up the West Bank. Zechariah 12:6
• West Bank Jews will go home to Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:6

1968

• Israel will control Ashdod. Zechariah 9:1-8

1973

• Yom Kippur War will occur. Micah 5:5-8
• Jerusalem will be a burden to all nations. Zechariah 12:2,3

1980

• The shekel will be revived as Israeli currency. Ezekiel 45:1,2

1981

• Third Shepherd will arise. Micah 5:5-8
• Israel will attack Iraqi (Nuclear) facility. Micah 5:5-8

1982

• Israel will give back the Sinai peninsula. Zechariah 10:6
• First Lebanese War will occur (fire-pot). Zechariah 12:6

1989

• The Berlin Wall will fall. Ezekiel 38:4-6

1990

• Ethiopian Jews will be brought to Israel. Isaiah 18:1-7

~2000

• Cities will be restored and Israel will have non-Jewish farmers. Isaiah 61:4,5; Zephaniah 2
• Jerusalem will grow beyond its old walls. Zechariah 2:4,5
• Land of Israel will be divided by its rivers and by Muslims. Isaiah 18:1-7
• Tourists will fly in and support Israel. Isaiah 60:8-10; Isaiah 61
• There will be constant planting and reaping (crops). Amos 9:13-15
• Forests will reappear in Israel (cedar, etc). Isaiah 41:18-20
• Desolate land and cities will be restored. Ezekiel 36:33-36
• Five cities will stay desolate. Matthew 11:20-24
• Muslims will not reckon Israel among nations. Numbers 23:9
• Israel will inherit remnant of Edom/Palestinians. Amos 9:12
• Satellite-Television Communication Systems invented. Revelation 17:8

2004

• Sanhedrin will be reestablished. Matthew 24:15,20

2005

• Palestinians will want Jerusalem as their capital. Ezekiel 36:2,7,10-11
• Gaza will be forsaken. Zephaniah 2:4
• Russia and Iran will sign a military defense pact. Ezekiel 38:3-8

2006

• Second Lebanese War will occur. Psalm 83:1-18

2010

• Turkey makes a military pact with Russia. Ezekiel 38:3-8

Wow, a lot of nonsense in one post.

Sorry but I've looked at enough of them to know that they are entirely too vague to be legitimate. I've read books from the 50's that talked about the prophecies all having been fulfilled. As I mentioned before, during the Crusades they thought all the prophecies had been fulfilled. Why you ask? Because they all had been, most of them multiple times. Most of them are not all that difficult to predict.

I could write a book today using similar methodology and be proven a prophet in a few hundred years.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Even presenting it as a conflict creates conflict. It left me reaching for a knife one night that was fortunately missing. The only thing that was unhealthy was believing what I should have been doing long time ago would get me one way ticket to Hell. What is emotionally upsetting is when you believe something that leaves you so depressed people just look at you and ask what's wrong. Thinking of this as some sort of conflict left me crying to sleep most nights. Now, I laugh and smile more than I ever have and I'm feeling way more better than I ever thought possible.
The other interesting part is I used to be very bitter for awhile towards Christians and all of Christianity. I saw no difference between denomination, interpretation, or individual beliefs, I didn't like them, didn't trust them, and did think lesser of them. But then it was an Episcopalian priest who actually does focus on the message of love and peace and goodwill who tore that wall down for me. He was also the first Christian I knew of who accepted LBGT people, and after his experiences with a group I was a part of he decided to announce he was openly welcoming them into his church. He did lose about half his congregation over it though.

Thanks for the assumption. And, JFYI, I have long gotten over those issues. So much that I find it almost hard to believe it myself that I used to have suicidal thoughts and was going to do it once. But it is my experience, and it isn't unusual. And many do not survive it. For LBGT youth, school is one thing, but at place where the message is love and mercy but it leaves you having nightmares of hell that are vivid enough to feel the fire burning your skin, all because you're taught you're very identity is an abomination.

It's not meant to be an assumption. Anyone who identifies as LGBT and has conflicts with authorities or family in their pasts needs some counseling and help. Anyone.

But the overriding issue to me is different. When one is in a right church, a clean church, and one knows one has eternal life, there is no need to stay awake at night fearing Hell. That is the anxiety I'm glad you escaped, but it is not eternal salvation to be unafraid.

 

[JustWondering]

I appreciate your taking time to share with me your viewpoint, and to detail your analogy.

All you need to add is that the programmer allowed for free will. It is a misstatement to say he programmed precise, varying amounts of good and evil in persons. Christians will be rewarded in Heaven for voluntary, free will choices to do the right thing. Others will be punished for pursuing evil despite God's attempts to influence them to choose good.

People are neither robots nor software packages. However, I can say that we are analogous to good working programs infected by viruses. Trusting Christ is the way to inoculate and isolate the viruses that we may function as optimally designed!

This is where I derail this free will argument that I continually have to debunk because theists are ignorant of basic biology. Free will isn't a magical thing that lets your god off the hook. What theists like you call free will is simply our ability to reason and make choices. Our ability to reason and make choices comes from an organ which consists of a complex network of neurons called the brain. This is a fact, it is not debatable. How the brain is put together and how it functions is determined by a person's blueprint, their DNA, which if I remember correctly you said was authored by your god. Physically altering the brain (lobotomy, stroke, hemorrhage, concussion, etc...) or altering the chemical reactions in the brain (natural chemical imbalance, drugs) alters how the person thinks and behaves. This isn't an opinion, it is a fact with mountains of evidence to support it. There is no such thing as free will and I challenge you to find anything in the bible that actually mentions free will. I've challenged many theists with this and none of them have been able to provide any biblical support for this ludicrous free will argument. The only way for any version of free will to exist is if god isn't all-knowing and isn't all-powerful. A limited, fallible god must exist for your concept of free will to exist. Since the bible does portray god making mistakes perhaps god is limited and fallible? What do you think? All-powerful and all-knowing god cancels any possibility of "free will". Limited and fallible god allows for freedom of choice. Those are the only logical choices concerning your preferred unverified and unsupported god concept.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

but it is not eternal salvation to be unafraid.

Can you clarify this for me? I am reading it to mean: but it is eternal salvation to be afraid.

It's not meant to be an assumption.

But you did say I have problems. And, really, my problems that I am going to therapy for aren't even related to my past experiences or gender identity.

has conflicts with authorities

I have conflicts with authority because I am extremely stubborn. Next to me, a mule is like a drunk who goes to bed after you tell them to go sleep it off. And my mom and brother are worse, lol.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I won't deal with the first one, since we're already doing it to death, but let's look at the second one. Here's the verse:


You think that "Tarshish" in the Bible means "Britain"?

I've heard a lot of commentators say Tarshish is Ireland or the British Isles. That's what the prophecy author was banking on in the page I quoted, yes. Are we going to argue etymology and root of Tarshish or do you get my point, that you said there are 10 prophecies that are really 1 prophecy and that one page had DOZENS and dozens of prophecies fulfilled in modern Israel (where you have no excuse like "how do we know X event happened?")

 

[BilliardsBall]

This is where I derail this free will argument that I continually have to debunk because theists are ignorant of basic biology. Free will isn't a magical thing that lets your god off the hook. What theists like you call free will is simply our ability to reason and make choices. Our ability to reason and make choices comes from an organ which consists of a complex network of neurons called the brain. This is a fact, it is not debatable. How the brain is put together and how it functions is determined by a person's blueprint, their DNA, which if I remember correctly you said was authored by your god. Physically altering the brain (lobotomy, stroke, hemorrhage, concussion, etc...) or altering the chemical reactions in the brain (natural chemical imbalance, drugs) alters how the person thinks and behaves. This isn't an opinion, it is a fact with mountains of evidence to support it. There is no such thing as free will and I challenge you to find anything in the bible that actually mentions free will. I've challenged many theists with this and none of them have been able to provide any biblical support for this ludicrous free will argument. The only way for any version of free will to exist is if god isn't all-knowing and isn't all-powerful. A limited, fallible god must exist for your concept of free will to exist. Since the bible does portray god making mistakes perhaps god is limited and fallible? What do you think? All-powerful and all-knowing god cancels any possibility of "free will". Limited and fallible god allows for freedom of choice. Those are the only logical choices concerning your preferred unverified and unsupported god concept.

You have two things there:

1. An argument that free will is illusory

2. An argument that the Bible does not present free will

Regarding this:

1. If there is no free will and all is predetermined by brain chemistry, never again take more than a moment to debate any difficult life choices. Should I take X job or Y job? There's nothing to ponder, because whichever I "choose" in half a second or less was predetermined, right?

2. As I read your note I thought of Moses's statement that pro-lifers love to share:

CHOOSE life, that you and yours may live . . .

Other Bible statements:

For God so loved the world, that WHOEVER WILL trust in Christ will be saved...

Oh Martha, Mary has CHOSEN the better part...

Etc., etc.