Smoking Gun, Oh Atheists?

[Shadow Wolf]

Do you avoid gifts in life?

I won't take them from people I don't want to be associated with or owe any favors to.

What crime did God do when He gave you life and breath?

I didn't say that was his crime. I'm think more of those pregnant women in the OT who had to die and have their unborn ripped from the womb because it's what god wanted. All those children put to the sword because it's what god wanted. It's all those taken as slaves and told to serve and obey because it's what god wanted. And that's just some of his crimes. His worst crime is not taking ownership or responsibility for his followers that have been a blight on our existence, leaving a trail of misery, death, and destruction in their wake. All those claiming god, the Inquisitions, the Crusaders, Nazis, why did god not make it clear that is not his way but instead let those causing genocide in his name carry on unhindered? It's like god wants to be in command but wants none of the responsibilities that come along with it.

 

[JustWondering]

If the parent/child analogy doesn't "work for the biblical god" why does the biblical narrative consistently invoke a Father and a Son in soteriology?

Since the bible does not stand up to logical scrutiny, because it is just ancient mythical stories, why would you use this line of reasoning? Be logical please.

It's a lot easier to speak with you when we both use logic and not emotional appeals. Please be logical. That is, choose of your free will to be logical and non-emotional in our discussion.

It's easier to have an actual debate if you do not ignore my posts. Please address the arguments I made in post #713, LOGICALLY.

PS. Since free will is an illusion, which jails shall we open to make our brave new world?

Why would we open jails? You cannot ask others to be logical and then post ludicrous things yourself. All you are proving with this is your lack of intellectual honesty.

 

[JustWondering]

What kind of jerk would separate achievers from under-achievers?

What kind of jerk would associate with those who love Him rather than those who hate Him?

What kind of jerk would ensure that the citizens of His Kingdom be limited to the upstanding?

What kind of jerk would die for those who despise Him?

What kind of jerk would send ambassadors to you to implore you to be reconciled to the great King whom you call some kind of a jerk?

What kind of jerk loves the men who flogged Him, spat on Him, stripped Him, crucified Him?

What kind of jerk would send someone like me to you to beg you to make the right decisions? To not fight the King but to yield to Him?

I fought, I yielded. Yield.

Why so emotional? That was quite a rant. Why would a being that is supposedly good create a realm that solely exits to torture people? Can you explain LOGICALLY how someone can be loving and good while at the same time subjecting people to endless torture?

 

[Milton Platt]

Wow, I've never experienced such a powerful factual refutation before. I think I'll deconvert now, if that's okay.

You're RIGHT. The fact that humans do all sorts of evil, good and creative endeavors that no lower animal can proves nothing. The fact that your conscience burns when you commit sin (you do wrong you know you shouldn't do and you do it regardless, as do I) means nothing. The fact that Christians tell you on this forum "God loves you, I love you, please be reconciled to God and instead of willfully heading for Hell, trust Jesus for Heaven for FREE" proves nothing.

You're so RIGHT. I need to deconvert and quickly. THANK YOU so much for witnessing to me your evangelical skeptical love so that my soul could be saved, oops, I mean, disappear.

You never seem to address the my post. I said none of those things, nor implied them.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Wow, I've never experienced such a powerful factual refutation before. I think I'll deconvert now, if that's okay.

You're RIGHT. The fact that humans do all sorts of evil, good and creative endeavors that no lower animal can proves nothing. The fact that your conscience burns when you commit sin (you do wrong you know you shouldn't do and you do it regardless, as do I) means nothing. The fact that Christians tell you on this forum "God loves you, I love you, please be reconciled to God and instead of willfully heading for Hell, trust Jesus for Heaven for FREE" proves nothing.

You're so RIGHT. I need to deconvert and quickly. THANK YOU so much for witnessing to me your evangelical skeptical love so that my soul could be saved, oops, I mean, disappear.

You're right, none of your claims here prove anything close to what you think they do. Like the one about Jews winning lots of Nobel Prizes. It's kind of an arbitrary measuring stick to use, isn't it? Can we just cherry pick whatever we want? I mean, that's like me saying something like, "Most of the world's oil seems to be in the Middle East, so Allah must be the one true god because he obviously favours Middle Easterners." See how that doesn't really work? Is the Holocaust proof that god favours the Jews?

You have not demonstrated that any of these claims point to the existence of any god(s), never mind the specific god you believe in and worship. It appears that you are just throwing out a bunch of claims in hopes that one will stick.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The fact that your conscience burns when you commit sin (you do wrong you know you shouldn't do and you do it regardless, as do I) means nothing.

I remember one time when my conscience burned: listening to an anti-gay guest sermon in my ex-wife's church, I was overcome with guilt and anger at myself for having donated so much to a church that promoted hate. That day, I repented and from that day forward, refused to give them a dime.

So you say that what I felt that day was put in my heart by God?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The fact that your conscience burns when you commit sin (you do wrong you know you shouldn't do and you do it regardless, as do I) means nothing.

I must not sin, because I don't get that feeling.

The fact that Christians tell you on this forum "God loves you, I love you, please be reconciled to God and instead of willfully heading for Hell, trust Jesus for Heaven for FREE" proves nothing.

Some of us were never more miserable than when we were of Christ's flock.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I won't take them from people I don't want to be associated with or owe any favors to.

I didn't say that was his crime. I'm think more of those pregnant women in the OT who had to die and have their unborn ripped from the womb because it's what god wanted. All those children put to the sword because it's what god wanted. It's all those taken as slaves and told to serve and obey because it's what god wanted. And that's just some of his crimes. His worst crime is not taking ownership or responsibility for his followers that have been a blight on our existence, leaving a trail of misery, death, and destruction in their wake. All those claiming god, the Inquisitions, the Crusaders, Nazis, why did god not make it clear that is not his way but instead let those causing genocide in his name carry on unhindered? It's like god wants to be in command but wants none of the responsibilities that come along with it.

God doesn't want to be in total command (omnipotence).

He shares power. You and I can choose Heaven or Hell. You and I have a sin nature and I have done many inappropriate things. You do things your conscience tells you to not do.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I must not sin, because I don't get that feeling.

Some of us were never more miserable than when we were of Christ's flock.

You never get the feeling you are about to do something that feels good or feels selfish, etc. but shouldn't be done?

I've shared the gospel with hundreds or perhaps thousands of people using this measure. Each person I spoke to admitted that even if they don't like the word "sin" per se, that they on a regular or irregular basis have a conscience that talks to them and that sometimes, they act against their conscience. I doubt very highly that you are the sole person who has no shred of conscience.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I remember one time when my conscience burned: listening to an anti-gay guest sermon in my ex-wife's church, I was overcome with guilt and anger at myself for having donated so much to a church that promoted hate. That day, I repented and from that day forward, refused to give them a dime.

So you say that what I felt that day was put in my heart by God?

Possibly. Perhaps we should go into detail here:

There is a difference between righteous regret or anger (wish I hadn't given THAT church money so now I feel bad about doing so) and the promptings of conscience against sin (I should steal this but I will because it feels good doing so).

 

[BilliardsBall]

Since the bible does not stand up to logical scrutiny, because it is just ancient mythical stories, why would you use this line of reasoning? Be logical please.



It's easier to have an actual debate if you do not ignore my posts. Please address the arguments I made in post #713, LOGICALLY.



Why would we open jails? You cannot ask others to be logical and then post ludicrous things yourself. All you are proving with this is your lack of intellectual honesty.

Post 713:

BilliardsBall said: ↑ 1. The all-powerful God has chosen to share/distribute power. I have power over my children but granted them power. Even if such power is limited, no one including you would say I determined all my children did.

The parent/child analogy doesn't work for the biblical god, I wish theists would stop TRYING to use it. You did not design EVERY aspect of your child from the ground up. You did not design EVERY aspect of EVERY environment your child will find themself in. If an ALL-POWERFUL god created EVERYTHING, then everything has already been predetermined and free will is an illusion. At this point I have to assume that you are willfully ignoring the point I am making because you do not have a counter to it and will not accept your position is indefensible.

BilliardsBall said: ↑ 2. If free will is an illusion, why do some people become heroes displaying extraordinary choices while others in the same situation are cowards? Of course, the ultimate example is Jesus explaining He could savage the Romans with legions of angels but chose voluntarily to die for Pilate and for you and I.

If your god exists, then he made them that way. Your religion claims he made EVERYTHING, correct? There is no possible way for me to dumb this down any further. The free will argument is a wash, theists should really let it go.

Answer: God is not omnipotent or all powerful. Omnipotence is a philosophical word, not a biblical word. God chooses to share power with you. You choose your eternal destiny. God did, in answer to your question, create everything, including creative persons with their own creation potential (one reason why we're made in His image).

You have the ability to create poetry or pornography, invent weapons or invent peace agreements.

Free will is real. If free will is an illusion, we might not open jails, but we would need to declare all persons innocent, not guilty, as all jurisprudence assumes free will agency.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Why so emotional? That was quite a rant. Why would a being that is supposedly good create a realm that solely exits to torture people? Can you explain LOGICALLY how someone can be loving and good while at the same time subjecting people to endless torture?

I think I can.

Let's start with 50 years, then move to "eternity" as you wrote:

Good, loving people will have someone jailed for 50 years. A jail needn't include torture, but it does restrict some persons from interacting (and interfering!) with others.

The biblical Hell, not the medieval Catholic Hell, is place (per Luke 16) where persons are restricted with deprivations, but without any devils present, pitchforks or torture. It is a place of regret and heat, but not torture, since the man in perdition in Luke 16 is carrying on a conversation with Abraham, a linear, logical conservation. The man is eternally imprisoned by a good, loving God, but not eternally tortured (unless you want to continue to argue semantics).

So WHY does a GOOD God eternally jail persons?

Because if I mess with others, it isn't utopia for them. Only transformed persons who are morally perfect will be allowed in Heaven, the rest will be barred from Heaven, just like it's supposed to be non-rapists, non-paedophiles and non-murderers in Heaven and the rest in jail.

 

[SkepticThinker]

God doesn't want to be in total command (omnipotence).

He shares power. You and I can choose Heaven or Hell. You and I have a sin nature and I have done many inappropriate things. You do things your conscience tells you to not do.

Speak for yourself. I don't do things my conscience tells me not to do.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You're right, none of your claims here prove anything close to what you think they do. Like the one about Jews winning lots of Nobel Prizes. It's kind of an arbitrary measuring stick to use, isn't it? Can we just cherry pick whatever we want? I mean, that's like me saying something like, "Most of the world's oil seems to be in the Middle East, so Allah must be the one true god because he obviously favours Middle Easterners." See how that doesn't really work? Is the Holocaust proof that god favours the Jews?

You have not demonstrated that any of these claims point to the existence of any god(s), never mind the specific god you believe in and worship. It appears that you are just throwing out a bunch of claims in hopes that one will stick.

You chose poor examples, since I would remind you that modern Arab wealth and the Holocaust are just two of the conditions prophesied specifically in the Bible. But your come from isn't "the Bible tells the future in ancient writings?!" but rather, "here's a whole bunch of reasons the Bible is garbage".

Therefore, I worry about your soul.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You chose poor examples, since I would remind you that modern Arab wealth and the Holocaust are just two of the conditions prophesied specifically in the Bible. But your come from isn't "the Bible tells the future in ancient writings?!" but rather, "here's a whole bunch of reasons the Bible is garbage".

Therefore, I worry about your soul.

I chose poor examples on purpose to illuminate your poor example (Nobel Prizes) and why it doesn't work and doesn't bring you anywhere nearing proving the god you believe in exists.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Possibly. Perhaps we should go into detail here:

There is a difference between righteous regret or anger (wish I hadn't given THAT church money so now I feel bad about doing so) and the promptings of conscience against sin (I should steal this but I will because it feels good doing so).

If such a thing as sin exists, homophobic acts are sinful.

 

[JustWondering]

Answer: God is not omnipotent or all powerful. Omnipotence is a philosophical word, not a biblical word. God chooses to share power with you. You choose your eternal destiny. God did, in answer to your question, create everything, including creative persons with their own creation potential (one reason why we're made in His image)..

I agree that the only way the biblical god works is if he is not all-knowing and not all-powerful. According to the bible he is also envious, cruel, violent, and extremely vain. He has a lot in common with a lot of other gods man invented during that age.

Genesis seems to contradict itself, it says he made us in his image. However, to truly be like him we needed the fruit from the tree of knowledge and the tree of Life, which he did NOT want us to have. According to genesis he wanted us as semi-intelligent, naked animals.

Free will is real. If free will is an illusion, we might not open jails, but we would need to declare all persons innocent, not guilty, as all jurisprudence assumes free will agency.

The power to make decisions is real. The factors that contribute to any decision being made depend on brain chemistry and environment which no one (including your god apparently) can control. Which means all decisions are predetermined. There is no magical force that is free will. We are physical beings that live in a physical world.

Wrong, guilt assumes someone broke the law, it has nothing to do with free will agency. If someone hurts/kills people they need to be locked up because they may do it again. It isn't difficult to figure this stuff out.

 

[JustWondering]

I think I can.

Let's start with 50 years, then move to "eternity" as you wrote:

Good, loving people will have someone jailed for 50 years. A jail needn't include torture, but it does restrict some persons from interacting (and interfering!) with others.

The biblical Hell, not the medieval Catholic Hell, is place (per Luke 16) where persons are restricted with deprivations, but without any devils present, pitchforks or torture. It is a place of regret and heat, but not torture, since the man in perdition in Luke 16 is carrying on a conversation with Abraham, a linear, logical conservation. The man is eternally imprisoned by a good, loving God, but not eternally tortured (unless you want to continue to argue semantics).

So WHY does a GOOD God eternally jail persons?

Because if I mess with others, it isn't utopia for them. Only transformed persons who are morally perfect will be allowed in Heaven, the rest will be barred from Heaven, just like it's supposed to be non-rapists, non-paedophiles and non-murderers in Heaven and the rest in jail.

If people need to be perfect for your heaven utopia to exist then it will never exist. If god can't be perfect how can anyone else be perfect? Your argument doesn't make sense.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You never get the feeling you are about to do something that feels good or feels selfish, etc. but shouldn't be done?

It all really depends on what you mean by shouldn't do it? I am going to have any "guilty conscience" over jaywalking? I do in front of cops with no second thought.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You and I have a sin nature and I have done many inappropriate things.

You may have a sinful nature, but I do not.

You do things your conscience tells you to not do.

Why would I do that?