Smoking Gun, Oh Atheists?

[BilliardsBall]

Speak for yourself. I don't do things my conscience tells me not to do.

I call baloney. You're the sole person I've spoken to about this, among hundreds of people (or thousands) that I've witnessed to, who won't admit they do things they know they shouldn't that feel good?

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death ... If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It all really depends on what you mean by shouldn't do it? I am going to have any "guilty conscience" over jaywalking? I do in front of cops with no second thought.

Really? I mean more like you commit sexual sin with another and your conscience nags you, or you tell a lie you shouldn't at school or the workplace, or conceal a guilty secret or guilty pleasure to a partner...

 

[BilliardsBall]

You may have a sinful nature, but I do not.

Why would I do that?

Of course all persons other than Christ have a sin nature. No one I've met says they've mastered all their bad habits or deviance.

And of course you've acted against the promptings of conscience. You are not the only person I've met who hasn't!

 

[BilliardsBall]

I agree that the only way the biblical god works is if he is not all-knowing and not all-powerful. According to the bible he is also envious, cruel, violent, and extremely vain. He has a lot in common with a lot of other gods man invented during that age.

Genesis seems to contradict itself, it says he made us in his image. However, to truly be like him we needed the fruit from the tree of knowledge and the tree of Life, which he did NOT want us to have. According to genesis he wanted us as semi-intelligent, naked animals.



The power to make decisions is real. The factors that contribute to any decision being made depend on brain chemistry and environment which no one (including your god apparently) can control. Which means all decisions are predetermined. There is no magical force that is free will. We are physical beings that live in a physical world.

Wrong, guilt assumes someone broke the law, it has nothing to do with free will agency. If someone hurts/kills people they need to be locked up because they may do it again. It isn't difficult to figure this stuff out.

I'm unsure I should reply, since you seem to be rhetorical above. However,

It makes more sense if you consider that the knowledge tree was actually the tree of the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, which is much different, but skeptics tend to excerpt the Bible in a rush instead of venerating it word-by-word.

The knowledge of good and evil comes to those who are no longer innocents. Once Adam and Eve partook of it, they covered their nakedness, that is, they formed the first religion of works--what I do will cover my evil. It is here that God does the first animal sacrifice to cover them better than the fig leaves, in a figure of Christ's atonement.

But you also skipped over what I wrote to opine, "I agree that the only way the biblical god works is if he is not all-knowing and not all-powerful." You are therefore NOT agreeing with me, so I'll rephrase:

God is omniscient (knows all, including knowledge of future events)

God is omnipotent in power (can do anything) but consistent in character and omni-good (will not do anything that is contrary to His nature, illogical or wrong)

God indeed shares power with man (free will)

Taken together, we have, God knows whether or not you will trust Christ for salvation via an exertion of your free will. Exert, exert!

 

[BilliardsBall]

If people need to be perfect for your heaven utopia to exist then it will never exist. If god can't be perfect how can anyone else be perfect? Your argument doesn't make sense.

God is morally perfect. People need to be transformed to be morally perfect to go to Heaven.

Man cannot make a moral utopia, indeed, cannot hold back war, rape and pillaging around the world, along with theft, lying, cheating and etc.

A person transformed by Christ at the judgment day will be able to enter Heaven without screwing the place up for others. I'm a Christian but am not ready to enter Heaven.

I will be on that day, for I have trusted Jesus as Savior.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Genesis seems to contradict itself, it says he made us in his image. However, to truly be like him we needed the fruit from the tree of knowledge and the tree of Life, which he did NOT want us to have. According to genesis he wanted us as semi-intelligent, naked animals.

... and only male, and get "companionship" from other species:

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a companion for him who corresponds to him.” 19 The Lord God formed out of the ground every living animal of the field and every bird of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them, and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man named all the animals, the birds of the air, and the living creatures of the field, but for Adam no companion who corresponded to him was found.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 2:18-20 - New English Translation

 

[SkepticThinker]

I call baloney. You're the sole person I've spoken to about this, among hundreds of people (or thousands) that I've witnessed to, who won't admit they do things they know they shouldn't that feel good?

It's fine if you don't believe me. You don't actually know me though. If you did, you'd know I spend a great deal of effort in making sure I am doing what I view to be the right thing, in a given situation. I've been told I agonize too much over such things, in fact.

I don't know thousands of people who act against their conscience. Perhaps you just hang out with immoral people a lot. Who knows.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death ... If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

I have no idea why you're throwing Bible quotes at me when I don't accept it as any kind of authority. I guess you're just preaching?

I don't murder, I don't sell my body, I don't worship false idols, I don't practice witchcraft and I make a point not to lie. I follow my conscience, as I said before. So maybe you could save the threats for someone else. Maybe like a murderer or something.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I call baloney. You're the sole person I've spoken to about this, among hundreds of people (or thousands) that I've witnessed to, who won't admit they do things they know they shouldn't that feel good?

In general, doing things that violate my conscience doesn't make me feel good.

Are you saying that you enjoy doing things you believe to be wrong? If so, you should know that not everyone is like that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Really? I mean more like you commit sexual sin with another and your conscience nags you

I've never committed a sexual sin.

you tell a lie you shouldn't at school or the workplace

Again, if I shouldn't do it, why would I do it?

conceal a guilty secret or guilty pleasure to a partner...

Nope, and nor do I think these are sins.

Of course all persons other than Christ have a sin nature. No one I've met says they've mastered all their bad habits or deviance.

Not all bad habits are said to be sin in the Bible, and not all forms of deviance are considered sin either. Such as, we tend to not be so much "spare the rod" because most parents don't even have a rod to spare. And if you hit your child with a rod, today we call that child abuse.
Amazing how far we have advanced morally without regards or consideration to god, and where once religious-based abuse was the norm, today we no longer tolerate it and have criminalized the behavior. And it's sad that we even need specific laws to protect children from god.

And of course you've acted against the promptings of conscience. You are not the only person I've met who hasn't!

I've not said that. I've said if I shouldn't do something, why would I do it? But I also asked for specific examples. I technically do break the law every time I jaywalk, but it has zero reinforcement here. But if no one is coming in either direction anyways, though illegal, there is no real reason why I shouldn't. Or is it sin to push myself physically a bit harder than I know I should?

 

[BilliardsBall]

It's fine if you don't believe me. You don't actually know me though. If you did, you'd know I spend a great deal of effort in making sure I am doing what I view to be the right thing, in a given situation. I've been told I agonize too much over such things, in fact.

I don't know thousands of people who act against their conscience. Perhaps you just hang out with immoral people a lot. Who knows.

I have no idea why you're throwing Bible quotes at me when I don't accept it as any kind of authority. I guess you're just preaching?

I don't murder, I don't sell my body, I don't worship false idols, I don't practice witchcraft and I make a point not to lie. I follow my conscience, as I said before. So maybe you could save the threats for someone else. Maybe like a murderer or something.

The only thing I would accuse you of is self-righteousness. It seems to exude from your post above. Jesus Christ pointed out, accurately, that the difference between murderers and us is we've been angry enough to hurt someone but murderers take action--we are guilty at heart.

Why do I say self-righteous? Statements of your like "I make a point not to lie," when I've seen research indicating the average person lies thrice daily. It sounds like you make it a point to be a pretty good person, but you and I cannot be in Heaven, where pretty good persons undo utopia, without being transformed.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The only thing I would accuse you of is self-righteousness. It seems to exude from your post above. Jesus Christ pointed out, accurately, that the difference between murderers and us is we've been angry enough to hurt someone but murderers take action--we are guilty at heart.

I'm not guilty of murder at heart or in practice. Jesus was inaccurate in his assessment of me.

Sorry but I don't buy this "everyone is a sinner" nonsense. I'm not equal to a murderer, nor are you or anyone else who hasn't actually murdered a person. Thought crimes are not equivalent to actual crimes carried out against other human beings.

Why do I say self-righteous? Statements of your like "I make a point not to lie," when I've seen research indicating the average person lies thrice daily. It sounds like you make it a point to be a pretty good person, but you and I cannot be in Heaven, where pretty good persons undo utopia, without being transformed.

You said that everyone acts against their conscience, or at least, thousands of people you claim to have met. I am not one of those people, and I am pointing that out to you. You can interpret that as self-righteousness, or as someone setting the record straight on a claim about my capacity to exercise morality.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I've never committed a sexual sin.

Again, if I shouldn't do it, why would I do it?

Nope, and nor do I think these are sins.

Not all bad habits are said to be sin in the Bible, and not all forms of deviance are considered sin either. Such as, we tend to not be so much "spare the rod" because most parents don't even have a rod to spare. And if you hit your child with a rod, today we call that child abuse.
Amazing how far we have advanced morally without regards or consideration to god, and where once religious-based abuse was the norm, today we no longer tolerate it and have criminalized the behavior. And it's sad that we even need specific laws to protect children from god.

I've not said that. I've said if I shouldn't do something, why would I do it? But I also asked for specific examples. I technically do break the law every time I jaywalk, but it has zero reinforcement here. But if no one is coming in either direction anyways, though illegal, there is no real reason why I shouldn't. Or is it sin to push myself physically a bit harder than I know I should?

Please help me understand. You never act against your conscience to take illicit pleasure in anything? The Bible says what is not of faith is sin. You never tell an off joke, act in anger toward someone, take the last X when other people are waiting for X, etc. when you conscience nags at you?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Please help me understand.

If I shouldn't do something, I don't. Such as, if there is something I want, but can't legally obtain it, even if it would be very easy for me to steal it, I don't. Sure, I used to, but that was a "past life" and I am no longer that person. Even I have a hard time believing I used to be that emotionally low and having no care or regard about my own self, let alone others.

You never act against your conscience to take illicit pleasure in anything?

What is an "illicit pleasure?" Is this meant as pleasure derived from illegal activities? From the act itself or from doing something illegal?

The Bible says what is not of faith is sin.

Your computer is a product of facts and physics, not faith. So is your computer a sin to create and use because it is an object made not of faith?

You never tell an off joke

I am very careful about whom I tell them around. If there is a good enough chance someone will take offense, or if I just don't know, I refrain from such things.

act in anger toward someone

I find the best way to "act in anger" is to remove myself from the situation until I can think without anger.

take the last X when other people are waiting for X, etc.

That's very situational. Have I been waiting for X myself? Have I already gotten X? Does someone else need it more than me? Have we been fairly waiting in line?

when you conscience nags at you?

Nope. If my conscience nags at me because I shouldn't do something, why would I do it?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm not guilty of murder at heart or in practice. Jesus was inaccurate in his assessment of me.

Sorry but I don't buy this "everyone is a sinner" nonsense. I'm not equal to a murderer, nor are you or anyone else who hasn't actually murdered a person. Thought crimes are not equivalent to actual crimes carried out against other human beings.


You said that everyone acts against their conscience, or at least, thousands of people you claim to have met. I am not one of those people, and I am pointing that out to you. You can interpret that as self-righteousness, or as someone setting the record straight on a claim about my capacity to exercise morality.

I didn't say that thought crimes and physical crimes bear the same punishment or same weight on Earth--or in Heaven. Rather, I'm saying that the former precedes and is the catalyst for the latter.

And no, I disbelieve that you always act in accordance with your--ahem--better nature. Each person on Earth eats forbidden fruit, and all persons are therefore sinners.

Or to put it another way--tell us all why you qualify to enter utopia unconverted.

 

[BilliardsBall]

If I shouldn't do something, I don't. Such as, if there is something I want, but can't legally obtain it, even if it would be very easy for me to steal it, I don't. Sure, I used to, but that was a "past life" and I am no longer that person. Even I have a hard time believing I used to be that emotionally low and having no care or regard about my own self, let alone others.

What is an "illicit pleasure?" Is this meant as pleasure derived from illegal activities? From the act itself or from doing something illegal?

Your computer is a product of facts and physics, not faith. So is your computer a sin to create and use because it is an object made not of faith?

I am very careful about whom I tell them around. If there is a good enough chance someone will take offense, or if I just don't know, I refrain from such things.

I find the best way to "act in anger" is to remove myself from the situation until I can think without anger.

That's very situational. Have I been waiting for X myself? Have I already gotten X? Does someone else need it more than me? Have we been fairly waiting in line?

Nope. If my conscience nags at me because I shouldn't do something, why would I do it?

I question why you feel the need to so strongly protest that you are SUCH a good person that you NEVER, EVER do anything acting against your conscience. You and I cannot enter Heaven, a place of moral perfection, in our current state.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I didn't say that thought crimes and physical crimes bear the same punishment or same weight on Earth--or in Heaven. Rather, I'm saying that the former precedes and is the catalyst for the latter.

There is only one life that I know I get for sure. I'm not living it in some hopes of carrying on somewhere else after I'm dead and living this one life in light of that. I think that's a waste.

And no, I disbelieve that you always act in accordance with your--ahem--better nature. Each person on Earth eats forbidden fruit, and all persons are therefore sinners.

I don't really care what you believe about me. Maybe you're more immoral than I am then, if you do indeed act against your conscience. Maybe turn it around on yourself instead of projecting onto me.

I don't believe in sin and therefore I don't think people are born sinners. I see no good reason to believe that people are born bad or evil and/or that children are bad or evil. I think that's a terrible way to view human beings.

Or to put it another way--tell us all why you qualify to enter utopia unconverted.

I see no good reason to believe that there is this utopia you speak of. I'd rather live for the one life I know I get for sure and to do my best to make sure I've made this one life the best it can be for those I love and for as many people that I come into contact with as possible.

I question why you feel the need to so strongly protest that you are SUCH a good person that you NEVER, EVER do anything acting against your conscience. You and I cannot enter Heaven, a place of moral perfection, in our current state.

Maybe because you keep accusing us of acting against our consciences.

Maybe YOU do, but that is your problem to deal with.

Now maybe you could tell me what good reason I have to believe in the specific God and heaven you believe in and why I should live this one life I know I get for sure, in hopes of some better life somewhere else someday. Because I don't see it and I find your worldview to be harmful to the human psyche.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I question why you feel the need to so strongly protest that you are SUCH a good person that you NEVER, EVER do anything acting against your conscience.

I must question why you keep assuming that I do when you absolutely do not know me. Why is it you keep wanting to insist I must apparently be just like you and do things my conscious says not to? Is your own moral compass and conscience so askew that you just can't fathom how someone can think "this person has really angered me....I want to bash their brains in" but yet not act on those thoughts? That some avoid lying because it's easier that way and doesn't create stories you have to remember to keep straight?
I can say I sleep with a clear conscience. You, on the other hand, are the one who seems to have some baggage.
Had you asked me 10 years ago, it would have been a different answer. But taking from others, invading personal space without invitation, I don't do those anymore. It's amazing what kind of changes can come about when you begin to appreciate, enjoy, and savor living and life. I don't even eat beef or pork that often anymore, and with the exception of sea food and some chicken I don't even eat that much meat at all. I even somewhat recently gave up beef jerky because I found the smell of the beef repulsive.

You and I cannot enter Heaven, a place of moral perfection, in our current state.

I don't want to enter your Heaven, with your God, on His terms. I see it really as no different than getting in good with the Nazi party so at least they'll treat you decent. But mass murdering psychopaths are not the type I want to be affiliated or associated with. And according to the Bible, Hitler has absolutely nothing on Jehovah when it comes to genocide.

 

[BilliardsBall]

There is only one life that I know I get for sure. I'm not living it in some hopes of carrying on somewhere else after I'm dead and living this one life in light of that. I think that's a waste.


I don't really care what you believe about me. Maybe you're more immoral than I am then, if you do indeed act against your conscience. Maybe turn it around on yourself instead of projecting onto me.

I don't believe in sin and therefore I don't think people are born sinners. I see no good reason to believe that people are born bad or evil and/or that children are bad or evil. I think that's a terrible way to view human beings.


I see no good reason to believe that there is this utopia you speak of. I'd rather live for the one life I know I get for sure and to do my best to make sure I've made this one life the best it can be for those I love and for as many people that I come into contact with as possible.


Maybe because you keep accusing us of acting against our consciences.

Maybe YOU do, but that is your problem to deal with.

Now maybe you could tell me what good reason I have to believe in the specific God and heaven you believe in and why I should live this one life I know I get for sure, in hopes of some better life somewhere else someday. Because I don't see it and I find your worldview to be harmful to the human psyche.

**
You've raised multiple issues in this thread. I'd like to try to keep focused:

I'd rather live for the one life I know I get for sure and to do my best to make sure I've made this one life the best it can be for those I love and for as many people that I come into contact with as possible.

Why? You're going to rot in the ground and no one will remember you 100 years from now. Do what thou wilt and live like a libertine. Why do you care?

Also, it is not "live solely for Heaven" but if we live as Christ asks, there are benefits now and also later. If you want proof, as requested above, Jesus said: "If anyone keeps my words and does my will, He will know if my teachings are of God." I testify that as a tither and giver, for example, God does more with my 90% or less than I can do on my own. This and many other sayings of Jesus and the Bible are demonstrably true.

 

[SkepticThinker]

**
You've raised multiple issues in this thread. I'd like to try to keep focused:



Why? You're going to rot in the ground and no one will remember you 100 years from now. Do what thou wilt and live like a libertine. Why do you care?

I think I just explained why. Because I know I get this life. I am currently living it. I don't know that I get any other life after I have died and I'm not going to put all of my hopes into something that is probably not very likely anyway. It doesn't really bother me that people may not remember me 100 years from now, I don't live this life looking for eternal fame.

Also, it is not "live solely for Heaven" but if we live as Christ asks, there are benefits now and also later. If you want proof, as requested above, Jesus said: "If anyone keeps my words and does my will, He will know if my teachings are of God." I testify that as a tither and giver, for example, God does more with my 90% or less than I can do on my own. This and many other sayings of Jesus and the Bible are demonstrably true.

What reason do I have to believe any of this is true?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I must question why you keep assuming that I do when you absolutely do not know me. Why is it you keep wanting to insist I must apparently be just like you and do things my conscious says not to? Is your own moral compass and conscience so askew that you just can't fathom how someone can think "this person has really angered me....I want to bash their brains in" but yet not act on those thoughts? That some avoid lying because it's easier that way and doesn't create stories you have to remember to keep straight?
I can say I sleep with a clear conscience. You, on the other hand, are the one who seems to have some baggage.
Had you asked me 10 years ago, it would have been a different answer. But taking from others, invading personal space without invitation, I don't do those anymore. It's amazing what kind of changes can come about when you begin to appreciate, enjoy, and savor living and life. I don't even eat beef or pork that often anymore, and with the exception of sea food and some chicken I don't even eat that much meat at all. I even somewhat recently gave up beef jerky because I found the smell of the beef repulsive.

I don't want to enter your Heaven, with your God, on His terms. I see it really as no different than getting in good with the Nazi party so at least they'll treat you decent. But mass murdering psychopaths are not the type I want to be affiliated or associated with. And according to the Bible, Hitler has absolutely nothing on Jehovah when it comes to genocide.

Here's what I know, unless your conscience is totally burnt over, which can happen according to the scriptures, you just wrote that you NEVER, EVER do something your conscience says not to do--yet you just equated me and Jesus Christ as "getting in good with Nazis" and "Hitler isn't as bad as Jehovah". Your conscience didn't give you a heads up on this nonsense? Or was it pain from the past speaking in anger--pain from parents who were, as we discussed, religiously abusive, and cruel, that made you say such loathsome things about me and about our Lord Jesus?

Either you sinned against your conscience in this thread IMHO or you need Jesus to heal you of such anger. Don't perpetuate the cycle by calling Jesus and me Nazis and WORSE than Hitler, PLEASE.