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Smoking Gun, Oh Atheists?

BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Shadow Wolf said:
Can you clarify this for me? I am reading it to mean: but it is eternal salvation to be afraid.

But you did say I have problems. And, really, my problems that I am going to therapy for aren't even related to my past experiences or gender identity.

I have conflicts with authority because I am extremely stubborn. Next to me, a mule is like a drunk who goes to bed after you tell them to go sleep it off. And my mom and brother are worse, lol.
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Therapy can be a very, very good thing.

I meant that being without fear is a good thing, but that salvation is neither fear nor lack of fear: it is trusting in Jesus Christ. Jesus never said or did anything to harm you or I, but gave His all for us!
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
BilliardsBall said:
I've heard a lot of commentators say Tarshish is Ireland or the British Isles. That's what the prophecy author was banking on in the page I quoted, yes.
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Okay. So any time the Bible says "Tarshish" (other than as a person's name, I'm guessing, since it shows up a few times in that context), it's referring to either Britain or Ireland?

So we can infer from Ezekiel 27 that King Solomon had a trade relationship with Britain or Ireland, and this country was the source of at least some of his gold, silver, tin, and lead? Does the archaeology bear this out?

Are we going to argue etymology and root of Tarshish or do you get my point, that you said there are 10 prophecies that are really 1 prophecy and that one page had DOZENS and dozens of prophecies fulfilled in modern Israel (where you have no excuse like "how do we know X event happened?")
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You're doing what's called the Gish Gallop: throwing out a large number of claims knowing that your opponent won't have the time or energy to go through all of them to refute them.

It's very easy to make an unsubstantiated claim; it often takes much more effort to go through it in detail to debunk it. It's a pointless game and I'm not going to play it, because I disagree with its inherent assumption: that if you present enough crappy claims, eventually at least one of them is bound to be true.

This is why I'm focusing on that first claim you made about the date of the formation of Israel. If it's the best you've got - and I understand from how you represented it, that it is - then if it doesn't pass the test of reasonableness, then we can expect that your second-, third-, and fourth-best prophecy claims (and on down the line) won't pass the test either.
 
JustWondering

JustWondering

Jerk
BilliardsBall said:
1. If there is no free will and all is predetermined by brain chemistry, never again take more than a moment to debate any difficult life choices. Should I take X job or Y job? There's nothing to ponder, because whichever I "choose" in half a second or less was predetermined, right?
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Isn't it a theistic argument that everything in this universe, including the universes creation itself dependent on a cause? Isn't it a theistic argument that the only thing uncaused is god? A universe that is not predetermined, doesn't match your beliefs. If an all-powerful god exists, then EVERYTHING in this universe is continually under its influence one way or another. From theistic arguments it is clear that free will is an illusion.

From a materialistic perspective our thoughts and actions are determined by what happens in the brain when exposed to outside stimuli, which means free will is an illusion.

We have the ability to reason and make choices, isn't that good enough?

BilliardsBall said:
2. As I read your note I thought of Moses's statement that pro-lifers love to share:

CHOOSE life, that you and yours may live . . .

Other Bible statements:

For God so loved the world, that WHOEVER WILL trust in Christ will be saved...
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The ability to make choices is not in dispute. The process by which we make our decisions is where we disagree and you have failed to support or even clearly describe your position.
 
Milton Platt

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
BilliardsBall said:
Please remember what you most recently posted before shifting the posts.

I was responding to your challenge to me that God didn't create DNA. If God made the first people, and these people could procreate, He designed their DNA. DNA has so many elements of design in its construction and operation that it is silly on its face to deny a DNA Creator.
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Can you demonstrate that a god designed the first people rather than they evolved from previous life forms?
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Okay. So any time the Bible says "Tarshish" (other than as a person's name, I'm guessing, since it shows up a few times in that context), it's referring to either Britain or Ireland?

So we can infer from Ezekiel 27 that King Solomon had a trade relationship with Britain or Ireland, and this country was the source of at least some of his gold, silver, tin, and lead? Does the archaeology bear this out?


You're doing what's called the Gish Gallop: throwing out a large number of claims knowing that your opponent won't have the time or energy to go through all of them to refute them.

It's very easy to make an unsubstantiated claim; it often takes much more effort to go through it in detail to debunk it. It's a pointless game and I'm not going to play it, because I disagree with its inherent assumption: that if you present enough crappy claims, eventually at least one of them is bound to be true.

This is why I'm focusing on that first claim you made about the date of the formation of Israel. If it's the best you've got - and I understand from how you represented it, that it is - then if it doesn't pass the test of reasonableness, then we can expect that your second-, third-, and fourth-best prophecy claims (and on down the line) won't pass the test either.
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No, I have other claims. This one is simple to follow.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Shadow Wolf said:
Yes, but I'm not in therapy over anything that has prompted you to say I need therapy.

Luke 19:27
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Have you been slain by Christ? And is warning you of danger or judgment helping or hurting you? If Hell is real, would you prefer that Jesus not tell anyone how to escape Hell?
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
JustWondering said:
Isn't it a theistic argument that everything in this universe, including the universes creation itself dependent on a cause? Isn't it a theistic argument that the only thing uncaused is god? A universe that is not predetermined, doesn't match your beliefs. If an all-powerful god exists, then EVERYTHING in this universe is continually under its influence one way or another. From theistic arguments it is clear that free will is an illusion.

From a materialistic perspective our thoughts and actions are determined by what happens in the brain when exposed to outside stimuli, which means free will is an illusion.

We have the ability to reason and make choices, isn't that good enough?



The ability to make choices is not in dispute. The process by which we make our decisions is where we disagree and you have failed to support or even clearly describe your position.
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1. The all-powerful God has chosen to share/distribute power. I have power over my children but granted them power. Even if such power is limited, no one including you would say I determined all my children did.

2. If free will is an illusion, why do some people become heroes displaying extraordinary choices while others in the same situation are cowards? Of course, the ultimate example is Jesus explaining He could savage the Romans with legions of angels but chose voluntarily to die for Pilate and for you and I.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
BilliardsBall said:
Have you been slain by Christ? And is warning you of danger or judgment helping or hurting you? If Hell is real, would you prefer that Jesus not tell anyone how to escape Hell?
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If it's all real, I'd rather go to Hell. And I'd accuse God of his own crimes on my way there.
 
JustWondering

JustWondering

Jerk
BilliardsBall said:
1. The all-powerful God has chosen to share/distribute power. I have power over my children but granted them power. Even if such power is limited, no one including you would say I determined all my children did.
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The parent/child analogy doesn't work for the biblical god, I wish theists would stop TRYING to use it. You did not design EVERY aspect of your child from the ground up. You did not design EVERY aspect of EVERY environment your child will find themself in. If an ALL-POWERFUL god created EVERYTHING, then everything has already been predetermined and free will is an illusion. At this point I have to assume that you are willfully ignoring the point I am making because you do not have a counter to it and will not accept your position is indefensible.

BilliardsBall said:
2. If free will is an illusion, why do some people become heroes displaying extraordinary choices while others in the same situation are cowards? Of course, the ultimate example is Jesus explaining He could savage the Romans with legions of angels but chose voluntarily to die for Pilate and for you and I.
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If your god exists, then he made them that way. Your religion claims he made EVERYTHING, correct? There is no possible way for me to dumb this down any further. The free will argument is a wash, theists should really let it go.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Milton Platt said:
None of that has relevance. Any differences, great or small or non-existent do nothing to demonstrate that there is a god and that he creates the things you say he created.
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Wow, I've never experienced such a powerful factual refutation before. I think I'll deconvert now, if that's okay.

You're RIGHT. The fact that humans do all sorts of evil, good and creative endeavors that no lower animal can proves nothing. The fact that your conscience burns when you commit sin (you do wrong you know you shouldn't do and you do it regardless, as do I) means nothing. The fact that Christians tell you on this forum "God loves you, I love you, please be reconciled to God and instead of willfully heading for Hell, trust Jesus for Heaven for FREE" proves nothing.

You're so RIGHT. I need to deconvert and quickly. THANK YOU so much for witnessing to me your evangelical skeptical love so that my soul could be saved, oops, I mean, disappear.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Shadow Wolf said:
If it's all real, I'd rather go to Hell. And I'd accuse God of his own crimes on my way there.
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If what is all real? If it's real that Hell is a choice and Heaven is a gift you'd rather not take a gift? Do you avoid gifts in life? Do you ruin surprise birthday parties in general?

What crime did God do when He gave you life and breath?
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
JustWondering said:
The parent/child analogy doesn't work for the biblical god, I wish theists would stop TRYING to use it. You did not design EVERY aspect of your child from the ground up. You did not design EVERY aspect of EVERY environment your child will find themself in. If an ALL-POWERFUL god created EVERYTHING, then everything has already been predetermined and free will is an illusion. At this point I have to assume that you are willfully ignoring the point I am making because you do not have a counter to it and will not accept your position is indefensible.



If your god exists, then he made them that way. Your religion claims he made EVERYTHING, correct? There is no possible way for me to dumb this down any further. The free will argument is a wash, theists should really let it go.
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If the parent/child analogy doesn't "work for the biblical god" why does the biblical narrative consistently invoke a Father and a Son in soteriology?

It's a lot easier to speak with you when we both use logic and not emotional appeals. Please be logical. That is, choose of your free will to be logical and non-emotional in our discussion.

PS. Since free will is an illusion, which jails shall we open to make our brave new world?
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
JustWondering said:
What kind of jerk would create a hell in the first place?
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What kind of jerk would separate achievers from under-achievers?

What kind of jerk would associate with those who love Him rather than those who hate Him?

What kind of jerk would ensure that the citizens of His Kingdom be limited to the upstanding?

What kind of jerk would die for those who despise Him?

What kind of jerk would send ambassadors to you to implore you to be reconciled to the great King whom you call some kind of a jerk?

What kind of jerk loves the men who flogged Him, spat on Him, stripped Him, crucified Him?

What kind of jerk would send someone like me to you to beg you to make the right decisions? To not fight the King but to yield to Him?

I fought, I yielded. Yield.
 
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