Smoking Gun, Oh Atheists?

[Shadow Wolf]

Here's what I know, unless your conscience is totally burnt over, which can happen according to the scriptures, you just wrote that you NEVER, EVER do something your conscience says not to do

My conscious works just fine. However, I tend not to like that "nagging" feeling, as you described it, so why would I inflict an emotional hurt upon myself?
Again, and please don't dodge it this time, why must you constantly keep assuming I do things my conscience "tells me" not to? Just because you may apparently need your own Jiminy Cricket doesn't mean others do.

yet you just equated me and Jesus Christ as "getting in good with Nazis" and "Hitler isn't as bad as Jehovah".

Hitler and Jehovah are both cruel, sadistic, and have no shred of respect or decency towards human life. Really, what's the difference between pledging allegiance to the Nazis to have escaped their wraith and pledging allegiance to Jehovah to avoid his wraith?

Your conscience didn't give you a heads up on this nonsense? Or was it pain from the past speaking in anger--pain from parents who were, as we discussed, religiously abusive, and cruel, that made you say such loathsome things about me and about our Lord Jesus?

No, the church, a church of Jesus Christ, was abusive and cruel. My parents didn't do that (one of them was absent anyways), but rather Christians did. It was Christians who were so cruel, cold, and calloused that if left me hating them all for a few years.

Either you sinned against your conscience in this thread IMHO or you need Jesus to heal you of such anger. Don't perpetuate the cycle by calling Jesus and me Nazis and WORSE than Hitler, PLEASE.

No, I did not "sin against my conscience." And, no, I didn't call you or Jesus Nazis, I said getting good with your Messiah is no different than getting good with Nazis. And I said specifically that Jehovah is worse than Hitler. Both were terrible, but god killed way more, and was way more vicious and cruel.
And, no, I didn't say you specifically are worse. Please stop having such knee-jerk reactions and work on comprehending what I actually said.
And, no, I don't need Jesus. The absolute worst times of my life, the most miserable, the most painful and hurtful years of my life were Jesus was a part of it. And do realize, these things of anger and such, I have stated at least a couple times that was many years ago. Those things aren't me anymore, I'm not that person anymore, I don't live like that anymore.

 

[JustWondering]

It makes more sense if you consider that the knowledge tree was actually the tree of the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, which is much different, but skeptics tend to excerpt the Bible in a rush instead of venerating it word-by-word.

The knowledge of good and evil comes to those who are no longer innocents. Once Adam and Eve partook of it, they covered their nakedness, that is, they formed the first religion of works--what I do will cover my evil. It is here that God does the first animal sacrifice to cover them better than the fig leaves, in a figure of Christ's atonement.

So God knew it was evil for them to go naked while they did not, and was fine with letting them walk around naked? Are you suggesting the biblical god is some kind of pervert?

But you also skipped over what I wrote to opine, "I agree that the only way the biblical god works is if he is not all-knowing and not all-powerful." You are therefore NOT agreeing with me, so I'll rephrase:

God is omniscient (knows all, including knowledge of future events)

God is omnipotent in power (can do anything) but consistent in character and omni-good (will not do anything that is contrary to His nature, illogical or wrong)

God indeed shares power with man (free will)

Taken together, we have, God knows whether or not you will trust Christ for salvation via an exertion of your free will. Exert, exert!

Except that my response was to this post from YOU.

Answer: God is not omnipotent or all powerful. Omnipotence is a philosophical word, not a biblical word. God chooses to share power with you. You choose your eternal destiny. God did, in answer to your question, create everything, including creative persons with their own creation potential (one reason why we're made in His image).

So you seem to be changing your beliefs when it suits you. As an atheist I don't have to bother with mental gymnastics to make irrational, superstitious legends make sense when subjected to reason and logic. Either something makes sense or it doesn't, your religion doesn't make sense, therefore it's nonsense. Isn't reason and logic wonderful?

 

[JustWondering]

God is morally perfect. People need to be transformed to be morally perfect to go to Heaven.

Man cannot make a moral utopia, indeed, cannot hold back war, rape and pillaging around the world, along with theft, lying, cheating and etc.

A person transformed by Christ at the judgment day will be able to enter Heaven without screwing the place up for others. I'm a Christian but am not ready to enter Heaven.

I will be on that day, for I have trusted Jesus as Savior.

The bible clearly depicts god making mistakes, therefore god is not perfect. The biblical god caused a flood to kill everyone but Noah and his family and then AFTERWARDS felt bad about it because it wasn't the right thing to have done and promised himself never to do it again. Fast forward to exodus and god is back to torturing and killing innocent people again, having learned nothing from his own past mistakes. Then this same entity has the audacity to tell us that murder is wrong? Give me a break. I already know that murder is wrong, I don't need a god that is a murderer to tell me that.

 

[JustWondering]

... and only male, and get "companionship" from other species:



Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 2:18-20 - New English Translation

The biblical god really doesn't seem to have his act together. The bible depicts him as a psychotic bumbler. It's so easy to see this just by reading the bible while not doing mental gymnastics. However, must believers are indoctrinated before they ever actually read the bible themselves, if ever.

 

[Vaderecta]

Are you perfect? "If you're reading this, you're not too close." Jesus Christ, died for our sin, our shame. He rose so that when we trust Him we receive eternal life.

This is probably more important then the point of this ignorant thread. How do you even imagine this works? Thousands of religions on this planet but you have found the answer. The same belief in eternal life drive so many people to do such irrational things but you are different. You wouldn't start a thread claiming atheists don't think rape is inherently bad no more than you would start a thread saying Chinese people don't believe rape is inherently bad.

I don't believe in any god and I think rape is wrong. (I'm sure lots of Chinese people agree with me) If you lump people together you are judging people based on your core beliefs and those beliefs are causing you to separate people in ways that are quite disturbing. You believe in one of many myths. Others believe in other myths that disagree with yours... it's not a smoking gun... it's a belief in different stories. Believing in a different story doesn't mean your belief in your story is wrong... It's just another story. And that story is everyone's own personal choice and you do not dictate what stories others can believe in or not believe in. Maybe its Allah or Thor? If we go by percentages I am guessing it Allah...

 

[BilliardsBall]

I think I just explained why. Because I know I get this life. I am currently living it. I don't know that I get any other life after I have died and I'm not going to put all of my hopes into something that is probably not very likely anyway. It doesn't really bother me that people may not remember me 100 years from now, I don't live this life looking for eternal fame.

What reason do I have to believe any of this is true?

Where should we begin? I'm at this forum busting my hump to testify of what I've seen and experienced.

 

[BilliardsBall]

This is probably more important then the point of this ignorant thread. How do you even imagine this works? Thousands of religions on this planet but you have found the answer. The same belief in eternal life drive so many people to do such irrational things but you are different. You wouldn't start a thread claiming atheists don't think rape is inherently bad no more than you would start a thread saying Chinese people don't believe rape is inherently bad.

I don't believe in any god and I think rape is wrong. (I'm sure lots of Chinese people agree with me) If you lump people together you are judging people based on your core beliefs and those beliefs are causing you to separate people in ways that are quite disturbing. You believe in one of many myths. Others believe in other myths that disagree with yours... it's not a smoking gun... it's a belief in different stories. Believing in a different story doesn't mean your belief in your story is wrong... It's just another story. And that story is everyone's own personal choice and you do not dictate what stories others can believe in or not believe in. Maybe its Allah or Thor? If we go by percentages I am guessing it Allah...

There is a lot to unpack in your note. Briefly, my responses would be:

1) Only about a dozen major religions have texts documenting their beliefs for our review

2) The Bible can be proved true via exploring its moral teaching, guides for living--example, tithe and get money back via miracle power--prophecy fulfillment, logic, etc.

3) Atheists and born agains CAN often be placed in two lumps collectively--one group says the Bible is the source of knowledge of good and evil and absolute morals, the other says there are no absolutes--because absolutes imply there is a moral God we are accountable to

 

[BilliardsBall]

So God knew it was evil for them to go naked while they did not, and was fine with letting them walk around naked? Are you suggesting the biblical god is some kind of pervert?



Except that my response was to this post from YOU.




So you seem to be changing your beliefs when it suits you. As an atheist I don't have to bother with mental gymnastics to make irrational, superstitious legends make sense when subjected to reason and logic. Either something makes sense or it doesn't, your religion doesn't make sense, therefore it's nonsense. Isn't reason and logic wonderful?

The fig leaf coverings were because Adam and Eve were ashamed, not because the God who created our naked forms and human sexuality was ashamed.

The animal skin covering was more appropriate for the wilderness outside the Garden.

I have a fairly robust set of beliefs from the scriptures. I don't change my beliefs when it suits me--I conform. It is the skeptics who "stand" on moral and ethical relativism.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The bible clearly depicts god making mistakes, therefore god is not perfect. The biblical god caused a flood to kill everyone but Noah and his family and then AFTERWARDS felt bad about it because it wasn't the right thing to have done and promised himself never to do it again. Fast forward to exodus and god is back to torturing and killing innocent people again, having learned nothing from his own past mistakes. Then this same entity has the audacity to tell us that murder is wrong? Give me a break. I already know that murder is wrong, I don't need a god that is a murderer to tell me that.

Correct. You only needed a God to give you a conscience that speaks against murder.

 

[JustWondering]

I have a fairly robust set of beliefs from the scriptures. I don't change my beliefs when it suits me--I conform. It is the skeptics who "stand" on moral and ethical relativism.

You are also dishonest. You say one thing in one post (god is all-powerful and all-knowing) and then the opposite in another. Which is it? Having trouble with your mental gymnastics?

 

[JustWondering]

Correct. You only needed a God to give you a conscience that speaks against murder.

WRONG. The sadistic and psychopathic biblical god does not exist. The existence of any other kind of creator has yet to be proven in any way by anyone.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Where should we begin? I'm at this forum busting my hump to testify of what I've seen and experienced.

We could "begin" with you actually addressing the words I typed.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There is a lot to unpack in your note. Briefly, my responses would be:


1) Only about a dozen major religions have texts documenting their beliefs for our review

2) The Bible can be proved true via exploring its moral teaching, guides for living--example, tithe and get money back via miracle power--prophecy fulfillment, logic, etc.

3) Atheists and born agains CAN often be placed in two lumps collectively--one group says the Bible is the source of knowledge of good and evil and absolute morals, the other says there are no absolutes--because absolutes imply there is a moral God we are accountable to

1) So what? Couldn't there be a true religion that just never managed to end up on paper?

2) False. There is no evidence for the existence of "miracle power." And I don't find the Bible to be particularly moral in many places.

3) I say that religious people that simply do what they think god wants them to do aren't exercising morality at all; rather, they're just following orders. Practicing morality consists of a lot more than just doing what one is told.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You are also dishonest. You say one thing in one post (god is all-powerful and all-knowing) and then the opposite in another. Which is it? Having trouble with your mental gymnastics?

God IS all powerful. Part of His great power lies in choosing to share power. The second-in-command of an army is quite powerful while being respondent to the most powerful.

It is an awesome truth that at all-powerful God shares power with you. What to do?

 

[BilliardsBall]

WRONG. The sadistic and psychopathic biblical god does not exist. The existence of any other kind of creator has yet to be proven in any way by anyone.

Those are different things, logically:

1) God exists

2) God is sadistic

My kind advice would be for you to deal with 1) before 2).

 

[BilliardsBall]

1) So what? Couldn't there be a true religion that just never managed to end up on paper?

2) False. There is no evidence for the existence of "miracle power." And I don't find the Bible to be particularly moral in many places.

3) I say that religious people that simply do what they think god wants them to do aren't exercising morality at all; rather, they're just following orders. Practicing morality consists of a lot more than just doing what one is told.

So, your objections above are:

1) Be a skeptic, because the God you don't know could be as awesome as the ones who write books you don't follow

2) There is no evidence for miracles, so most people are insane, and only atheists know all the truth here

3) The Bible is immoral based on the fact that your morality is based on your subjectively different approach

4) Religious people are sheep and never moral agents

5) True morality is disobeying authority

It's not adding up for me, your comments . . . please explain more.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So, your objections above are:

1) Be a skeptic, because the God you don't know could be as awesome as the ones who write books you don't follow

2) There is no evidence for miracles, so most people are insane, and only atheists know all the truth here

3) The Bible is immoral based on the fact that your morality is based on your subjectively different approach

4) Religious people are sheep and never moral agents

5) True morality is disobeying authority

It's not adding up for me, your comments . . . please explain more.

No. My objections are:

1) The truth of the god claim(s) is irrelevant to the existence of holy books. Having a holy book written by human beings thousands of years ago doesn't make the religion any truer than one that doesn't have said books. L. Ron Hubbard wrote a book of fiction that is now a religion. Do you lend credence to Scientology because it has books outlining a belief system?

2) Yes, I say there is no good evidence for miracles. I did not say most people are insane and that only atheists know all the truth. People can be misled, people can misinterpret things, and people tend to create explanations for things that occur that they do not initially understand. Everyone does it. But we need to realize that if we don't know the answer to something, it's folly to make something up rather than just saying "I don't know" and looking into it further.

3) Slavery is immoral. Yes, that's my subjective analysis. It is objectively wrong because it takes away from human well-being, which is what I think the basis of morality should be. Murdering neighbouring tribes and dashing babies' heads against rocks is immoral. Yes, that's my subjective analysis. It is objectively wrong because taking someone's life takes away from that person's well-being.

4) There was no #4. Where on earth did I say this? Didn't I ask you to respond to the things I actually said? If a person is just following commands, then yes, I would say they are not exercising morality. But that's not to say that every religious person blindly follows commands. I don't think it's fair to make blanket generalizations like that, especially given the diversity of religious beliefs that exist (and have existed) on this planet.

5) Nope, not my assertion either. My assertion was that simply obeying commands is not a moral action and does not involve the exercising one's morality. Blindly following commands is an amoral action.


How about actually responding to the things I actually said, instead of trying to re-interpret for me, because you're really bad at doing that.

 

[JustWondering]

God IS all powerful. Part of His great power lies in choosing to share power. The second-in-command of an army is quite powerful while being respondent to the most powerful.

So you were dishonest or got confused while performing your mental gymnastics? In one post you said god was not all-powerful and not- all knowing because it was the only thing you could say to defend your beliefs, then in a later post you're back to saying god is all- powerful and all-knowing. You want me to share your beliefs but you can't even keep your own story straight.

Also remember, if god is all-powerful and all-knowing than logically free will is an illusion.

It is an awesome truth that at all-powerful God shares power with you. What to do?

But it's still his power and he knows exactly how its going to be used before he shares it because he's all-knowing, so free will is an illusion according to YOUR beliefs. Logic is awesome isn't it? It mucks up your nonsensical arguments with ease, what to do?

 

[JustWondering]

Those are different things, logically:

1) God exists

2) God is sadistic

My kind advice would be for you to deal with 1) before 2).

1) The biblical god does not exist.

2) The biblical god is sadistic.

My kind advice would be for you to deal with 1 and not worry about 2 because it's irrelevant.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No. My objections are:

1) The truth of the god claim(s) is irrelevant to the existence of holy books. Having a holy book written by human beings thousands of years ago doesn't make the religion any truer than one that doesn't have said books. L. Ron Hubbard wrote a book of fiction that is now a religion. Do you lend credence to Scientology because it has books outlining a belief system?

2) Yes, I say there is no good evidence for miracles. I did not say most people are insane and that only atheists know all the truth. People can be misled, people can misinterpret things, and people tend to create explanations for things that occur that they do not initially understand. Everyone does it. But we need to realize that if we don't know the answer to something, it's folly to make something up rather than just saying "I don't know" and looking into it further.

3) Slavery is immoral. Yes, that's my subjective analysis. It is objectively wrong because it takes away from human well-being, which is what I think the basis of morality should be. Murdering neighbouring tribes and dashing babies' heads against rocks is immoral. Yes, that's my subjective analysis. It is objectively wrong because taking someone's life takes away from that person's well-being.

4) There was no #4. Where on earth did I say this? Didn't I ask you to respond to the things I actually said? If a person is just following commands, then yes, I would say they are not exercising morality. But that's not to say that every religious person blindly follows commands. I don't think it's fair to make blanket generalizations like that, especially given the diversity of religious beliefs that exist (and have existed) on this planet.

5) Nope, not my assertion either. My assertion was that simply obeying commands is not a moral action and does not involve the exercising one's morality. Blindly following commands is an amoral action.


How about actually responding to the things I actually said, instead of trying to re-interpret for me, because you're really bad at doing that.

I drew all five points from your last remarks--but I keep seeing people who twist my words here and never repost their original comments. I'm not going to search through old messages. Go ahead and restate whatever point(s) you'd like me to address and I surely shall.