So Jesus is not God?

[sooda]

I believe it is totally illogical to think sin does not have an origin.

I believe that comes under the heading of ignoring the Bible. They do that at their own risk.

I believe Christian don't believe that either. However it isn't impossible but simply something God has no purpose to motivate Him to do it.

So you believe in Adam and Eve?

In Islam they believe god forgave Adam and Eve,.. and that children are born without inherited sin.

 

[74x12]

How do you reach that conclusion from that starting point? It makes no sense.

If God wills it that we resurrect, then we shall resurrect, whether Jesus already resurrected, or whether he will resurrect at the same time as all the rest of us. If he is a regular guy, and not the messiah, it won't impact the resurrection at all -- it will still go off without a hitch.

Interesting question. Of course I believe Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus claimed to be the resurrection and the life. (John 11:25) So anyone who really understands the gospel --good news-- understands that Jesus came for the resurrection. He died so He could rise. Why? To save all the righteous from death. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead.

In a Isaiah 26:19 we see a prophecy of the resurrection. It literally uses the singular tense "body" --King James Version gets it right, most modern translations make it plural "bodies"-- But, it's literally singular tense body or corpse in the Hebrew.

"Your dead live, my dead body they rise. Awake and sing, you dwellers in the dust, for the dew of herbs your dew, and the land of rephaim you cause to fall."​

So whose body is this speaking of? The person who is being referred to in Isaiah 26:19 is someone special. Someone whose body is so significant; that because it rises everyone else rises with it.

So, the Messiah had to die first and be raised first. Then, whoever are members of His body will rise also. That will include everyone who is resurrected to eternal life. Jesus will be head over them all.

This is why I say Jesus is the real Israel --in other words, the everlasting Israel-- because even Jacob will be a member of His body. Jesus will be the firstborn over all.

I could show many other scriptures that speak about the resurrection through Jesus.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Interesting question. Of course I believe Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus claimed to be the resurrection and the life. (John 11:25) So anyone who really understands the gospel --good news-- understands that Jesus came for the resurrection. He died so He could rise. Why? To save all the righteous from death. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead.

In a Isaiah 26:19 we see a prophecy of the resurrection. It literally uses the singular tense "body" --King James Version gets it right, most modern translations make it plural "bodies"-- But, it's literally singular tense body or corpse in the Hebrew.

"Your dead live, my dead body they rise. Awake and sing, you dwellers in the dust, for the dew of herbs your dew, and the land of rephaim you cause to fall."​

So whose body is this speaking of? The person who is being referred to in Isaiah 26:19 is someone special. Someone whose body is so significant; that because it rises everyone else rises with it.

So, the Messiah had to die first and be raised first. Then, whoever are members of His body will rise also. That will include everyone who is resurrected to eternal life. Jesus will be head over them all.

This is why I say Jesus is the real Israel --in other words, the everlasting Israel-- because even Jacob will be a member of His body. Jesus will be the firstborn over all.

I could show many other scriptures that speak about the resurrection through Jesus.

I realize that this is your Christian theology, and I am not here to try to lure you away from Christianity. You are a wonderful Christian and I am not wanting to change that.

I am simply saying that the concept of the Resurrection works fine on its own. In the Tanakh (OT) the prophets spoke of the Resurrection and the world to come without ever mentioning a messiah that would come back from the dead. Therefore there are entire branches of Judaism that believe in the Resurrection, and have no need of a messianic resurrection such as the Christian teaching of Jesus'.

 

[sooda]

Interesting question. Of course I believe Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus claimed to be the resurrection and the life. (John 11:25) So anyone who really understands the gospel --good news-- understands that Jesus came for the resurrection. He died so He could rise. Why? To save all the righteous from death. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead.

In a Isaiah 26:19 we see a prophecy of the resurrection. It literally uses the singular tense "body" --King James Version gets it right, most modern translations make it plural "bodies"-- But, it's literally singular tense body or corpse in the Hebrew.

"Your dead live, my dead body they rise. Awake and sing, you dwellers in the dust, for the dew of herbs your dew, and the land of rephaim you cause to fall."​

So whose body is this speaking of? The person who is being referred to in Isaiah 26:19 is someone special. Someone whose body is so significant; that because it rises everyone else rises with it.

So, the Messiah had to die first and be raised first. Then, whoever are members of His body will rise also. That will include everyone who is resurrected to eternal life. Jesus will be head over them all.

This is why I say Jesus is the real Israel --in other words, the everlasting Israel-- because even Jacob will be a member of His body. Jesus will be the firstborn over all.

I could show many other scriptures that speak about the resurrection through Jesus.

Jesus is the REAL Israel? What does that mean? Israel is not sacred.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus is the REAL Israel? What does that mean? Israel is not sacred.

sooda, I can understand why you an others who are unbelievers would of course no consider Israel to be sacred (I'm assuming you are referring to Israel the People.) But I hope you understand that the Torah refers to Israel as a holy people -- both Jews and Christians accept this.

I agree with you that the statement that "Jesus is the REAL Israel" is just plain odd. Jesus is not even a group of people.

 

[pearl]

Therefore there are entire branches of Judaism that believe in the Resurrection, and have no need of a messianic resurrection such as the Christian teaching of Jesus'.

I have read Pinchas Lapide who states the same, that Jesus' resurrection is fully compatible with traditional Judaism, however, resurrection is not a sign of messiahship.

 

[74x12]

You are a wonderful Christian and I am not wanting to change that.

Well, that's quite nice of you; but I am not exactly a "wonderful" Christian ...

Jesus is the REAL Israel? What does that mean? Israel is not sacred.

Jesus has been spoken of as Israel in the prophecies but few people have made the connection. However it is there. What I mean about Jesus being the real Israel is that Jesus will make an eternal Israel. The Israel that is on earth is not eternal because they have to die. The patriarch Jacob(renamed Israel) could offer his descendants only a promised land in this life; because he is mortal; so he made a mortal nation. He died and they carried his bones out of Egypt and buried them in the promised land.

But, because Jesus has risen from the dead; He makes an immortal nation. They will not die because Jesus has died once and risen to live forever.

I agree with you that the statement that "Jesus is the REAL Israel" is just plain odd. Jesus is not even a group of people.

It's odd yes. But, if we read carefully in the prophecy of Daniel we find that the one like the "Son of man" is described as a group of people.

First Daniel sees this vision:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

So Daniel sees this "Son of man" go near before God and He is given a kingdom. And, then later on an angel comes and explains the dream for Daniel.

The angel tells him this:
verse 18; But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

So the "Son of man" is interpreted by the angel as being "the saints" which is plural. As a Christian this comes as no surprise to me because we understand that when Jesus spoke of being born again (John 3:3-5) He meant to be born again into His body. Jesus is the head of the body and anyone born again are members of His body.

So, Jesus is in a sense is a group of people. Of course we remember Jesus is the head; so we aren't stealing His glory. Just saying that before anyone thinks I'm claiming to be Jesus Himself or the Messiah Himself. That would be very wrong.

A second way to understand this is through the concept of marriage. Eve was taken from Adam. So Adam said she was "Bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh". That's why a husband and wife in marriage are considered "one flesh". In a similar way, spiritually speaking; they who are in the true church are one with the Messiah in spiritual marriage.

Another analogy used besides describing this group of people as one "body" or as one in marriage is the analogy of a temple for God. Jesus is described as the "Chief cornerstone" (Ephesians 2:20) and everyone else is described as being "living stones" (1 Peter 2:5-6) built up on the foundation of Jesus Himself in order to make a temple for God to live in.

So it's all the same idea but presented in different ways.

 

[sooda]

sooda, I can understand why you an others who are unbelievers would of course no consider Israel to be sacred (I'm assuming you are referring to Israel the People.) But I hope you understand that the Torah refers to Israel as a holy people -- both Jews and Christians accept this.

I agree with you that the statement that "Jesus is the REAL Israel" is just plain odd. Jesus is not even a group of people.

I know that Israel is used to represent the people throughout the Bible, but saying "Jesus is the REAL Israel" makes no sense. How could a people or a piece of land be "sacred"?

I'm not an unbeliever.. I'm not a fundamentalist or evangelical.

 

[sooda]

Well, that's quite nice of you; but I am not exactly a "wonderful" Christian ...


Jesus has been spoken of as Israel in the prophecies but few people have made the connection. However it is there. What I mean about Jesus being the real Israel is that Jesus will make an eternal Israel. The Israel that is on earth is not eternal because they have to die. The patriarch Jacob(renamed Israel) could offer his descendants only a promised land in this life; because he is mortal; so he made a mortal nation. He died and they carried his bones out of Egypt and buried them in the promised land.

But, because Jesus has risen from the dead; He makes an immortal nation. They will not die because Jesus has died once and risen to live forever.

It's odd yes. But, if we read carefully in the prophecy of Daniel we find that the one like the "Son of man" is described as a group of people.

First Daniel sees this vision:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

So Daniel sees this "Son of man" go near before God and He is given a kingdom. And, then later on an angel comes and explains the dream for Daniel.

The angel tells him this:
verse 18; But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

So the "Son of man" is interpreted by the angel as being "the saints" which is plural. As a Christian this comes as no surprise to me because we understand that when Jesus spoke of being born again (John 3:3-5) He meant to be born again into His body. Jesus is the head of the body and anyone born again are members of His body.

So, Jesus is in a sense is a group of people. Of course we remember Jesus is the head; so we aren't stealing His glory. Just saying that before anyone thinks I'm claiming to be Jesus Himself or the Messiah Himself. That would be very wrong.

A second way to understand this is through the concept of marriage. Eve was taken from Adam. So Adam said she was "Bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh". That's why a husband and wife in marriage are considered "one flesh". In a similar way, spiritually speaking; they who are in the true church are one with the Messiah in spiritual marriage.

Another analogy used besides describing this group of people as one "body" or as one in marriage is the analogy of a temple for God. Jesus is described as the "Chief cornerstone" (Ephesians 2:20) and everyone else is described as being "living stones" (1 Peter 2:5-6) built up on the foundation of Jesus Himself in order to make a temple for God to live in.

So it's all the same idea but presented in different ways.

it is better understood as a

The prophecy is about Christ’s ascension to the right hand of God
after His resurrection (cf. Acts 1:911, 2:33, 5:31).

Daniel’s prophecy makes it clear that the promised Kingdom began during the time of the 4th great world empire (Rome). In Matthew 28:18, Christ described His absolute dominion as a present reality, not something that was put on hold.

 

[74x12]

it is better understood as a

The prophecy is about Christ’s ascension to the right hand of God
after His resurrection (cf. Acts 1:911, 2:33, 5:31).

Daniel’s prophecy makes it clear that the promised Kingdom began during the time of the 4th great world empire (Rome). In Matthew 28:18, Christ described His absolute dominion as a present reality, not something that was put on hold.

He currently sits on the right hand of power as the scriptures make clear where He does rule and reign; but waits there until all His enemies are put under His feet. This is why there is still a fight for good against evil because not all His enemies have been locked away yet. They are in the process of being put under His feet. The current kingdom is internal; within. (Luke 17:21) But it will be external also when Christ returns in the clouds. (Acts 1:11, Revelation 1:7)

 

[sooda]

He currently sits on the right hand of power as the scriptures make clear where He does rule and reign; but waits there until all His enemies are put under His feet. This is why there is still a fight for good against evil because not all His enemies have been locked away yet. They are in the process of being put under His feet. The current kingdom is internal; within. (Luke 17:21) But it will be external also when Christ returns in the clouds. (Acts 1:11, Revelation 1:7)

Revelation says it will happen soon, shortly, within a generation. You gona believe Revelation or Cyrus Scofield and Hal Lindsey?

 

[The Anointed]

Revelation says it will happen soon, shortly, within a generation. You gona believe Revelation or Cyrus Scofield and Hal Lindsey?

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; And he (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

The seventh day is the Great Sabbath, The Day of the Lord, Acts 17: 31; The day that he has fixed, when he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

According to the pseudepigrapha of the OT, while on his death bed, Eve asked her Lord Adam, when she would follow him, and was told that she would be reunited with him in 6 days.

This is at the close of the Seventh Day Sabbath, when heavenly fire incinerates all physical life-forms on this planet.

Paul says to let no one judge you in your Sabbaths as they are only a shadow of the future reality, which is the seventh day from the day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that day at the age of 930.

 

[sooda]

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; And he (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

The seventh day is the Great Sabbath, The Day of the Lord, Acts 17: 31; The day that he has fixed, when he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

According to the pseudepigrapha of the OT, while on his death bed, Eve asked her Lord Adam, when she would follow him, and was told that she would be reunited with him in 6 days.

This is at the close of the Seventh Day Sabbath, when heavenly fire incinerates all physical life-forms on this planet.

Paul says to let no one judge you in your Sabbaths as they are only a shadow of the future reality, which is the seventh day from the day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that day at the age of 930.

I can't believe you think anyone lived to be 900 years old.

 

[The Anointed]

I can't believe you think anyone lived to be 900 years old.

I realise that you don't believe too much at all, do you?

 

[sooda]

I realise that you don't believe too much at all, do you?

I don't believe fairy tales.. The Book of Jubilees is not history. People didn't live hundreds of years. The book of Jubilees wasn't written until the 2nd century BC. I think its ridiculous that an adult man would not take a serious interest in the Bible.

 

[The Anointed]

I don't believe fairy tales.. The Book of Jubilees is not history. People didn't live hundreds of years. The book of Jubilees wasn't written until the 2nd century BC. I think its ridiculous that an adult man would not take a serious interest in the Bible.

I don't believe fairy tales either. How can an old grey headed grandma, who thinks it's ridiculous than an adult would take a serious interest in the bible, then claims to have read the bible seven times?

I would say that anyone who Claims (And I repeat CLAIMS) to have read the bible seven times, must have a serious interest in the bible.

 

[sooda]

I don't believe fairy tales either. How can an old grey headed grandma, who thinks it's ridiculous than an adult would take a serious interest in the bible, then claims to have read the bible seven times?

I would say that anyone who Claims (And I repeat CLAIMS) to have read the bible seven times, must have a serious interest in the bible.

I most certainly do have a serious interest.. and I am surprised at the sheer laziness of the fundamentalists.

 

[74x12]

Revelation says it will happen soon, shortly, within a generation. You gona believe Revelation or Cyrus Scofield and Hal Lindsey?

Why does the book of Revelation have to be at a set date? Can't God decide to delay it or expedite it's fulfillment based on how people are behaving?

I don't care much what Scofield or Lindsey say. I studied it for years. I came to understand many spiritual things but I don't see a specific date for events to begin to occur. One thing I believe is that the antichrist must sit in the temple proclaiming himself to be God according to Paul. This hasn't happened yet; although some Roman emperors came close to putting idols of themselves in the temple; they did not succeed.

Anyway Revelation ends with a new heaven and a new earth are you saying that already occurred? If so then where is it? I'm still on a miserable planet.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

First Daniel sees this vision:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

So Daniel sees this "Son of man" go near before God and He is given a kingdom. And, then later on an angel comes and explains the dream for Daniel.

The angel tells him this:
verse 18; But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

So the "Son of man" is interpreted by the angel as being "the saints" which is plural. As a Christian this comes as no surprise to me because we understand that when Jesus spoke of being born again (John 3:3-5) He meant to be born again into His body. Jesus is the head of the body and anyone born again are members of His body.

So, Jesus is in a sense is a group of people. Of course we remember Jesus is the head; so we aren't stealing His glory. Just saying that before anyone thinks I'm claiming to be Jesus Himself or the Messiah Himself. That would be very wrong.

A second way to understand this is through the concept of marriage. Eve was taken from Adam. So Adam said she was "Bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh". That's why a husband and wife in marriage are considered "one flesh". In a similar way, spiritually speaking; they who are in the true church are one with the Messiah in spiritual marriage.

Another analogy used besides describing this group of people as one "body" or as one in marriage is the analogy of a temple for God. Jesus is described as the "Chief cornerstone" (Ephesians 2:20) and everyone else is described as being "living stones" (1 Peter 2:5-6) built up on the foundation of Jesus Himself in order to make a temple for God to live in.

So it's all the same idea but presented in different ways.

It is plural, but not because Jesus is a group.

If you read the entire passage, it goes like this: I saw this animal and it was this nation. And I saw that animal and it was that nation. And I saw this other animal and it was this other nation. And then I saw what looked to be the son of man. Given the context, the son of man would need to be a NATION. And it would be a nation on a higher level then ones compared to animals. Well obviously this would be Israel, and that's why its people are called the holy people (saints is a strange translation). Holy means we are set apart for God's purposes.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I know that Israel is used to represent the people throughout the Bible, but saying "Jesus is the REAL Israel" makes no sense. How could a people or a piece of land be "sacred"?

I'm not an unbeliever.. I'm not a fundamentalist or evangelical.

In the sacred texts, there are lots of things, places, people, time, behaviors, etc. that are designated as holy. I'm not telling you that you have to believe it -- if you don't take the Bible to be the word of God, then of course it's entirely your choice and not an obligation to believe it. I'm just saying that for those who consider the Bible to be the word of God, the People of Israel ARE a holy people, and the Land of Canaan IS a holy land, just as the Shabbat is a holy time or the Ark of the Covenant is a holy object. Indeed, anything set aside for God's purposes becomes holy. If I manufacture a yad (a ritual pointer) with which to read the Torah, it is set aside for God's purposes, and is therefore sacred.