So Jesus is not God?

[The Anointed]

I most certainly do have a serious interest.. and I am surprised at the sheer laziness of the fundamentalists.

What a pity that you are unable to comprehend that in which you have such a serious interest.

 

[74x12]

It is plural, but not because Jesus is a group.

If you read the entire passage, it goes like this: I saw this animal and it was this nation. And I saw that animal and it was that nation. And I saw this other animal and it was this other nation. And then I saw what looked to be the son of man. Given the context, the son of man would need to be a NATION. And it would be a nation on a higher level then ones compared to animals. Well obviously this would be Israel, and that's why its people are called the holy people (saints is a strange translation). Holy means we are set apart for God's purposes.

I'm glad to see you understand this so well. The nation is Israel alright; but every nation has a head. In the symbolism of Daniel we see that each beast has at least one head which are symbolic of their leaders. Some have more than one head such as the leopard which has 4 heads. Who do you think will be the King/head of Israel if not the Messiah? And don't say God because that's obvious; God is already King. But, we know that the Messiah will be the King of Israel. So the Son of man in Daniel's vision is headed up by the Messiah. Jesus often refers to Himself as the Son of man. In pre-Christian Jewish religious literature such as the book of Enoch we find people expected the appearance of the Messiah who would be called "Son of man".

So, I conclude that Jesus is Israel. He's like Jacob; but Jacob made a mortal nation. Jesus makes an immortal nation.

As for saints as a translation; it just means holy ones.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm glad to see you understand this so well. The nation is Israel alright; but every nation has a head. In the symbolism of Daniel we see that each beast has at least one head which are symbolic of their leaders. Some have more than one head such as the leopard which has 4 heads. Who do you think will be the King/head of Israel if not the Messiah? And don't say God because that's obvious; God is already King. But, we know that the Messiah will be the King of Israel. So the Son of man in Daniel's vision is headed up by the Messiah. Jesus often refers to Himself as the Son of man. In pre-Christian Jewish religious literature such as the book of Enoch we find people expected the appearance of the Messiah who would be called "Son of man".

So, I conclude that Jesus is Israel. He's like Jacob; but Jacob made a mortal nation. Jesus makes an immortal nation.

As for saints as a translation; it just means holy ones.

Honestly? It just doesn't talk about the head being the messiah. It just talks about the whole, which is Israel. I don't think it really matters.

 

[sooda]

In the sacred texts, there are lots of things, places, people, time, behaviors, etc. that are designated as holy. I'm not telling you that you have to believe it -- if you don't take the Bible to be the word of God, then of course it's entirely your choice and not an obligation to believe it. I'm just saying that for those who consider the Bible to be the word of God, the People of Israel ARE a holy people, and the Land of Canaan IS a holy land, just as the Shabbat is a holy time or the Ark of the Covenant is a holy object. Indeed, anything set aside for God's purposes becomes holy. If I manufacture a yad (a ritual pointer) with which to read the Torah, it is set aside for God's purposes, and is therefore sacred.

Are you saying the State of Israel is set aside for God's purposes?

 

[sooda]

I'm glad to see you understand this so well. The nation is Israel alright; but every nation has a head. In the symbolism of Daniel we see that each beast has at least one head which are symbolic of their leaders. Some have more than one head such as the leopard which has 4 heads. Who do you think will be the King/head of Israel if not the Messiah? And don't say God because that's obvious; God is already King. But, we know that the Messiah will be the King of Israel. So the Son of man in Daniel's vision is headed up by the Messiah. Jesus often refers to Himself as the Son of man. In pre-Christian Jewish religious literature such as the book of Enoch we find people expected the appearance of the Messiah who would be called "Son of man".

So, I conclude that Jesus is Israel. He's like Jacob; but Jacob made a mortal nation. Jesus makes an immortal nation.

As for saints as a translation; it just means holy ones.

Christ receiving dominion and a kingdom has clearly already taken place at the time of His resurrection and Ascension, since He stated to His disciples in Matthew 28:18: “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”

Be careful of futurism.. Its a man made doctrine about 150 years old.

 

[sooda]

Why does the book of Revelation have to be at a set date? Can't God decide to delay it or expedite it's fulfillment based on how people are behaving?

I don't care much what Scofield or Lindsey say. I studied it for years. I came to understand many spiritual things but I don't see a specific date for events to begin to occur. One thing I believe is that the antichrist must sit in the temple proclaiming himself to be God according to Paul. This hasn't happened yet; although some Roman emperors came close to putting idols of themselves in the temple; they did not succeed.

Anyway Revelation ends with a new heaven and a new earth are you saying that already occurred? If so then where is it? I'm still on a miserable planet.

The Antichrist did sit in the temple proclaiming he was God.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes did that during the lifetime of Daniel.

 

[The Anointed]

The Antichrist did sit in the temple proclaiming he was God.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes did that during the lifetime of Daniel.

You poor dear, You are confusing a past event, with a prophesied future event, but then, you have revealed over and over again, that you are incapable of Comprehending the scriptures, which you 'CLAIM' to have read seven times, and which in your ignorance you attack.

 

[sooda]

You poor dear, You are confusing a past event, with a prophesied future event, but then, you have revealed over and over again, that you are incapable of Comprehending the scriptures, which you 'CLAIM' to have read seven times, and which in your ignorance you attack.

That's what Daniel was writing about. He was alive during the Maccabean Revolt and the pollution of the Temple by Antiochus IV. Antiochus was trying to Hellenize the culture of the Jews.. Some of the elite were amenable because they thought they could maintain their positions and prosper... others fought it.

These are real historical events not some Hal Lindsey fancy.

 

[The Anointed]

That's what Daniel was writing about. He was alive during the Maccabean Revolt and the pollution of the Temple by Antiochus IV. Antiochus was trying to Hellenize the culture of the Jews.. Some of the elite were amenable because they thought they could maintain their positions and prosper... others fought it.

These are real historical events not some Hal Lindsey fancy.

soda wrote...….. That's what Daniel was writing about. He was alive during the Maccabean Revolt and the pollution of the Temple by Antiochus IV. Antiochus was trying to Hellenize the culture of the Jews.. Some of the elite were amenable because they thought they could maintain their positions and prosper... others fought it.

These are real historical events not some Hal Lindsey fancy

The Anointed…..Real historical facts of the past, but not the event which was prophesied in the NT to occur in the future, when the man of lawlessness sits in the throne of godhead and proclaims himself to be God.

But how could one who lacks the ability to comprehend that which they read, even begin to understand the book of truths, which in their ignorance to such truths, they attack.​

 

[sooda]

soda wrote...….. That's what Daniel was writing about. He was alive during the Maccabean Revolt and the pollution of the Temple by Antiochus IV. Antiochus was trying to Hellenize the culture of the Jews.. Some of the elite were amenable because they thought they could maintain their positions and prosper... others fought it.

These are real historical events not some Hal Lindsey fancy

The Anointed…..Real historical facts of the past, but not the event which was prophesied in the NT to occur in the future, when the man of lawlessness sits in the throne of godhead and proclaims himself to be God.

But how could one who lacks the ability to comprehend that which they read, even begin to understand the book of truths, which in their ignorance to such truths, they attack.​

You still don't know what prophets do...… Hopeless.

 

[74x12]

The Antichrist did sit in the temple proclaiming he was God.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes did that during the lifetime of Daniel.

Like you, I also like to study history surrounding the scriptures and I agree that Antiochus did seem to fulfill some of the prophecies in Daniel. However, we can't ignore the fact that Jesus claimed a future fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy. (Mark 13:14)

So, it's only reasonable to conclude that the prophecies of Daniel likely have more than one single fulfillment; possibly even more than two fulfillments. You could look at Antiochus Epiphanes as possibly being the ultimate "antichrist" of the old Testament era. But, in the new Testament there are many more antichrists (1 John 2:18) and there will be one in particular who is going to be the ultimate antichrist of this era as well.

He is called the "man of sin" and is going to come to power when it's all about to be over. He will sit in the temple and proclaim himself to be God. (2 Thessalonians 2:4) This will be satan's last ditch effort to do as much damage as possible before he and his angels are thrown in prison. (Revelation 20:2)

My personal opinion is that the ultimate antichrist will not be completely human. He is possibly going to be Apollyon who ascends out of the bottomless pit. I think it possible that he is the son of satan with a human woman. Maybe he was born long ago and locked in the bottomless pit in order to protect humanity. The other evil spirits there possibly made him king of the bottomless pit because he is the son of satan.

However, due to increasing evil in the world; he will be unleashed for a short amount of time.

Unfortunately, evil people exist and with the help of demons are attempting to open as many portals as possible to allow in extra-dimensional entities. They don't know how stupid that is, but they're doing it anyway. Jesus said that men's hearts would fail them for fear of those things coming on the earth. It's becoming harder and harder for people to deny the obviously evil entities that are appearing all over the world.

My research has led me to these conclusions and I'm not the only one. But, obviously I don't just agree with people like Hal Lindsey or Scoffield ...

 

[74x12]

Christ receiving dominion and a kingdom has clearly already taken place at the time of His resurrection and Ascension, since He stated to His disciples in Matthew 28:18: “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”

Be careful of futurism.. Its a man made doctrine about 150 years old.

Jesus sits on the right hand waiting and expecting His enemies to made His footstool. So, that alone tells us that there will be a future time when there will be no more enemies. In the meantime there is constant spiritual war in the heavens and on earth between good and evil. But, through Jesus sitting on the right hand of power in heaven the forces of good have access to all power and are able to overcome the forces of evil. Because Jesus is not just given all power for Himself. He was given all power for us. Because this is the first time a human being was given all power in heaven and earth. Therefore, we humans who trust in Him are not powerless but the weapons of their warfare are "mighty through God" to the "pulling down of strongholds".

edit:
To make myself clearer. Jesus doesn't need all power for Himself because He is God manifest. So, no need for power to the Almighty. But, because He was in human form He took all power so that we humans would not be powerless but have the strength to overcome and prevail. (Revelation 12:11)

 

[sooda]

Like you, I also like to study history surrounding the scriptures and I agree that Antiochus did seem to fulfill some of the prophecies in Daniel. However, we can't ignore the fact that Jesus claimed a future fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy. (Mark 13:14)

So, it's only reasonable to conclude that the prophecies of Daniel likely have more than one single fulfillment; possibly even more than two fulfillments. You could look at Antiochus Epiphanes as possibly being the ultimate "antichrist" of the old Testament era. But, in the new Testament there are many more antichrists (1 John 2:18) and there will be one in particular who is going to be the ultimate antichrist of this era as well.

He is called the "man of sin" and is going to come to power when it's all about to be over. He will sit in the temple and proclaim himself to be God. (2 Thessalonians 2:4) This will be satan's last ditch effort to do as much damage as possible before he and his angels are thrown in prison. (Revelation 20:2)

My personal opinion is that the ultimate antichrist will not be completely human. He is possibly going to be Apollyon who ascends out of the bottomless pit. I think it possible that he is the son of satan with a human woman. Maybe he was born long ago and locked in the bottomless pit in order to protect humanity. The other evil spirits there possibly made him king of the bottomless pit because he is the son of satan.


However, due to increasing evil in the world; he will be unleashed for a short amount of time.

Unfortunately, evil people exist and with the help of demons are attempting to open as many portals as possible to allow in extra-dimensional entities. They don't know how stupid that is, but they're doing it anyway. Jesus said that men's hearts would fail them for fear of those things coming on the earth. It's becoming harder and harder for people to deny the obviously evil entities that are appearing all over the world.

My research has led me to these conclusions and I'm not the only one. But, obviously I don't just agree with people like Hal Lindsey or Scoffield ...

I don't think so.. Jesus told them to flee to the mountains to avoid the tribulation.. and they did. They went to Pella.

I see NO mention of a second tribulation or a "great" tribulation.. and, then there's John of Patmos... your brother in tribulation.

I am not convinced that the tribulation is a worldwide event if you could avoid it by leaving town.

Ask yourself WHO was the enemy? It was the roman occupation, the Roman Emperor and those Jews who sided with them.

 

[74x12]

I don't think so.. Jesus told them to flee to the mountains to avoid the tribulation.. and they did. They went to Pella.

I see NO mention of a second tribulation or a "great" tribulation.. and, then there's John of Patmos... your brother in tribulation.

I am not convinced that the tribulation is a worldwide event if you could avoid it by leaving town.

Clearly a lot of what Jesus was talking about there is most likely fulfilled in the Roman siege of Jerusalem yes. But not all of it. The prophecies of Jesus dealt with the immediate future of Jerusalem and the time of the apostles but extend all the way to the end of the age as well and the return of Christ in the clouds to gather the elect.

 

[sooda]

Clearly a lot of what Jesus was talking about there is most likely fulfilled in the Roman siege of Jerusalem yes. But not all of it. The prophecies of Jesus dealt with the immediate future of Jerusalem and the time of the apostles but extend all the way to the end of the age as well and the return of Christ in the clouds to gather the elect.

Ask yourself, WHO was the enemy? Was it the whole world? Was it Russia, NYC, the European Union?

 

[74x12]

Ask yourself, WHO was the enemy? Was it the whole world? Was it Russia, NYC, the European Union?

Do you mean the enemies being placed under Jesus Christ's feet? In that case it is all the enemies of mankind. Jesus in the form of God doesn't have to worry about any enemies. He took on human form to defeat our enemies for us. So these enemies of mankind are sin, death, the world, the flesh etc. and Satan along with his angels. Jesus will place all these under His (human) feet so that He can deliver up the kingdom restored and complete to the Father. Then the work of the Son of man (sitting on the right hand) will be finished.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Are you saying the State of Israel is set aside for God's purposes?

When I say Israel, I am talking about the People of Israel. When I speak of Eretz Israel, I am referring to the Land. As for the modern state of Israel, I believe that God certainly had a hand in its formation, but what does that mean? It doesn't excuse Jews from doing wrong, and if they continue to do so, God may withdraw his support. Nor does it mean that others may do wrong against them. Message to both sides: two wrongs don't make a right. The middle east situation is complex, and quite another topic. If you start a different thread, and let me know where it is, I'll be happy to participate.

 

[sooda]

When I say Israel, I am talking about the People of Israel. When I speak of Eretz Israel, I am referring to the Land. As for the modern state of Israel, I believe that God certainly had a hand in its formation, but what does that mean? It doesn't excuse Jews from doing wrong, and if they continue to do so, God may withdraw his support. Nor does it mean that others may do wrong against them. Message to both sides: two wrongs don't make a right. The middle east situation is complex, and quite another topic. If you start a different thread, and let me know where it is, I'll be happy to participate.

The Jewish people developed a history and narrative over 3000 years that makes them entitled to take the land of the others and kill them if they protest.

 

[The Anointed]

The Jewish people developed a history and narrative over 3000 years that makes them entitled to take the land of the others and kill them if they protest.

The Book of Jubilees Chapter 8: When Noah divided the Land among his three sons, Shem received the middle portion, from the delta of the river of Egypt, north to Lebanon and east to India, while Ham received the land of Africa to the south, and Japheth received the land to the north of Lebanon, which according to the book of Jubilees 8: 30; It is said that the Land of Japheth included the five great islands and a great land in the north. But it is cold, and the land of Ham is Hot, and the land of Shem (The middle son) is neither hot nor cold, but it is of blended cold and heat.

The sons of Noah then divided their portion of land among their sons, and it is written in Jubilees 9: 14; “And thus the sons of Noah divided unto their sons in the presence of Noah their father, and he bound them all by an oath, imprecating a curse on everyone who sought to seize the portion that had not fallen to him by lot. And they all said, ‘So be it; so be it,’ for themselves and for their sons for ever throughout their generations til the day of judgement, etc.”

Then in chapter 10: 29; we read; “And Canaan saw the land of Lebanon to the river Egypt, that it was very good, and he went not into the land of his inheritance to the west (That is to) the sea, and he dwelt in the land of Lebanon, eastward and westward from the border of the Jordan and from the border of the sea. And Ham his father, and Cush and Mizraim, his brothers said unto him: ‘Thou hast settled in a land which is not thine, and which did not fall to us by lot: do not do so; for if thou dost do so, thou and thy sons will fall in the land and be accursed through sedition; for by sedition ye have settled; and by sedition will thy children fall, and thou shalt be rooted out forever, etc.

 

[sooda]

The Book of Jubilees Chapter 8: When Noah divided the Land among his three sons, Shem received the middle portion, from the delta of the river of Egypt, north to Lebanon and east to India, while Ham received the land of Africa to the south, and Japheth received the land to the north of Lebanon, which according to the book of Jubilees 8: 30; It is said that the Land of Japheth included the five great islands and a great land in the north. But it is cold, and the land of Ham is Hot, and the land of Shem (The middle son) is neither hot nor cold, but it is of blended cold and heat.

The sons of Noah then divided their portion of land among their sons, and it is written in Jubilees 9: 14; “And thus the sons of Noah divided unto their sons in the presence of Noah their father, and he bound them all by an oath, imprecating a curse on everyone who sought to seize the portion that had not fallen to him by lot. And they all said, ‘So be it; so be it,’ for themselves and for their sons for ever throughout their generations til the day of judgement, etc.”

Then in chapter 10: 29; we read; “And Canaan saw the land of Lebanon to the river Egypt, that it was very good, and he went not into the land of his inheritance to the west (That is to) the sea, and he dwelt in the land of Lebanon, eastward and westward from the border of the Jordan and from the border of the sea.

And Ham his father, and Cush and Mizraim, his brothers said unto him: ‘Thou hast settled in a land which is not thine, and which did not fall to us by lot: do not do so; for if thou dost do so, thou and thy sons will fall in the land and be accursed through sedition; for by sedition ye have settled; and by sedition will thy children fall, and thou shalt be rooted out forever, etc.

Expanding on a fiction doesn't change it into history.