So Jesus is not God?

[sojourner]

In Army I had an Executive Commander who was with the Commander. At times the CO would gave the XO Assumption of Command Orders to where the XO is as the CO for a period of time and does the will of the CO. At some point that authority is given back to the CO and once again he is over all. Essentially The XO was with the CO and Was the CO

Except that this isn’t what John means.

 

[Riders]

Then... what is he, especially in light of both the resurrection and in light of John 1?

There is no proof for resurrection.

 

[Iymus]

There is no proof for resurrection.

I suspect based off what is written that God is immortal and does not die so cannot resurrect. So there can be no proof of his Resurrection.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Even if it theoretically occurred, his Death and Resurrection was never seen so how could man know?

 

[sojourner]

There is no proof for resurrection.

Doesn’t matter. The resurrection was written from a particular theological foundation. The concept exists, even if the facts do not. And that concept is included in the Bible. And that concept points implicitly to Jesus’ Divinity.

 

[74x12]

A question for the Unitarians and other Christians who doubt Jesus is God:

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8​

Notice that it is GOD that demonstrates His love towards us but it is CHRIST who dies.

Let's pretend Jesus is NOT God, just like you claim. How is it GOD showing his love toward us by asking someone else to die?

If the Warden comes to your house and requests you die for someone who's currently in jail, someone who knows and confesses he's guilty, would you consider this an act of love by the Warden?

Remember, I'm not asking if you are loving by agreeing to die for the convicted felon, I'm asking if you feel the Warden is showing his love for you by asking.

This is extremely easy to answer if Jesus is God. But if he's not, I wonder how it's answered.

Thanks for playing!

Jesus death is ultimate expression of the love of God.

Even Jesus said

John 15:13 greater love than this has no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends;

And so then doesn't God have the greatest love? So God Himself must lay down His life for His friends. Otherwise He won't have the greatest love.

 

[Riders]

Jesus death is ultimate expression of the love of God.

Even Jesus said

John 15:13 greater love than this has no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends;

And so then doesn't God have the greatest love? So God Himself must lay down His life for His friends. Otherwise He won't have the greatest love.

Why does God need to be the greatest love of all?

 

[74x12]

Why does God need to be the greatest love of all?

Because according to 1 John 4:8; God is love.

1 John 4:8
he who is not loving did not know God, because God is love.

In other words the manifestation of Jesus was a manifestation of the pure love of God for humanity. God could not do anything but die for His creation. It's because it was in His nature along to do so.

 

[Soapy]

"The Turntable Bridge


There once was a turntable bridge which spanned a large river. During most of the day, the bridge sat parallel with the banks of the river, to allow the ships to pass freely on both sides. But at certain times each day when a train was scheduled to cross, the bridge would be turned across the river, providing the trains safe passage.


A switchman lived w/ his family in a small house on one side of the river. From there he operated the controls, to turn the bridge and lock it into place before each train crossed.


One evening, as the switchman was waiting for the last train of the day to arrive, he gazed into the distance through the fading light and saw the train approaching. He grabbed the controls and waited until the train was within the prescribed distance when he would turn the bridge into position. He pressed the controls, the bridge turning, but to his horror he found that the locking mechanism didn’t work! If the bridge wasn't securely locked into position, it would wobble on both ends with the train's weight upon it, and the locomotive would then be pitched into the fast, onrushing river below. This was a passenger train; many people were aboard.


He quickly left the controls, running across the bridge to the other side where there was a lever he could use to lock the tracks manually. It took great strength to operate this lever.


He felt the rumble of the train coming. He took hold of the lever, braced his legs and pushed it forward to keep the mechanism locked. Many lives depended on this man’s strength. Then, coming from behind him, he heard a voice that made his blood run cold: “Daddy, where are you?” Here, his six-year-old son was coming across the bridge, looking for him!

His first instinct was to cry out to his boy, “Run, run!” but he knew those little legs could never make it across the bridge in time. He realized he could let go of the lever to run, grab his son, and carry him to safety, but he would not be able to get back to the lever in time.

**Either the people on the train, or his son, must die.**

He took only a moment to make his decision. The train sped swiftly on its way. No one on the train was aware of the tiny, broken body thrown mercilessly into the river by the speeding train. Nor did they see the pitiful figure of a sobbing man, walking home slower than he had ever walked, to tell his wife how he had sacrificed their son, so that others might live.


Now if you can comprehend the feelings that went through this man’s heart, you can begin to understand the feelings of our Heavenly Father, when He sacrificed His Son, in order to bridge the gap between us and eternal life. And how does He feel when we speed through life without ever thinking about what He did for us through His Son, Jesus Christ? Can there be any wonder that the earth quaked, and the skies grew dark, when His Son died?

When was the last time, you thanked Him for that sacrifice?"

There are many things wrong with your analog:

1. God, the Father: YHWH, REQUIRED a human being of unblemished qualities to be the sacrifice for the sins of the first man, Adam
2. Jesus, the firstborn* son of the YHWH, the Father, GAVE HIMSELF to be that sacrifice
3. Jesus KNEW he was going to die horribly BUT had FAITH that God the Father could resurrect him (though he faltered for a moment due to the monumental feat required)
4. Jesus, the son knew that the REWARD for the sacrifice was that he would BECOME RULER over the whole of creation (See the last temptation in the wilderness)
   
5. YHWH God was rightly aggrieved by the death of his son** as a sinless and Holy one should never taste death - the Holy Spirit of YHWH was REMOVED from Jesus (‘Father, why have you deserted me?’) in order for the death IN SIN OF ADAM AND ALL HUMANITY AT THAT TIME) to occur and thus humanity is now no longer subject to eternal death BECAUSE of Adam, but only by its OWN ‘personal sin’***

• * ‘Firstborn’ means, “Most beloved of a Father”. ‘Firstborn’ must not be confused with ‘First Born’, which means, “First (chronological) offspring (Procreation) of a Father... the child that ‘opens the mother’s womb’!. Yhwh does not PROCREATE... he only CREATES.
• ** ‘Son’ in spiritual terms - and in TRUE HUMANITY - means, “He who does exactly what the Father directs him to do”. It is shown that Abraham was said to have only one ‘Son’ despite the fact we know he had others. The illustration is to show that only this son, Isaac, was completely compliant with the directions of his Father, Abraham. Is it not said by the Father of a wayward child: “You are not my Son!”? And does scriptures not speak of the runaway slave, Onesimus, who was adopted as Paul’s SON because he completely followed the directions of Paul who was in prison? And YHWH says of Jesus: ‘This day I have BECOME your Father And you have BECOME my Son!’ And: ‘Behold my son in whom I am well pleased!’ (If Jesus is almighty God, as some say, why is YHWH GOD having to state that he is pleased with ‘GOD’ and ‘adopting’ God as his Son?)
• *** ‘Personal Sin’ is different from the sin of Adam. The sin of Adam condemned ALL MANKIND to eternal death NO MATTER how ‘good’ they may have been in their life. Jesus’ sacrifice wiped away that blot on humanity. BUT it does not wipe away sins we carry out for ourselves. There is no such thing as ‘Once Saved Eternally SAVED’ for ‘Personal sins’. We are, though, ETERNALLY SAVED FROM the ETERNAL DEATH that was brought by the sin of Adam. Consider what would stop anyone committing heinous crimes if there really was such a thing as ‘Once Saved Eternally Saved’?! One could simply claim salvation at an early time in your life - and thereafter commit as much sin as one likes imagining your are STILL eternally saved!!!

 

[Marcello115]

A question for the Unitarians and other Christians who doubt Jesus is God:

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8​

Notice that it is GOD that demonstrates His love towards us but it is CHRIST who dies.

Let's pretend Jesus is NOT God, just like you claim. How is it GOD showing his love toward us by asking someone else to die?

If the Warden comes to your house and requests you die for someone who's currently in jail, someone who knows and confesses he's guilty, would you consider this an act of love by the Warden?

Remember, I'm not asking if you are loving by agreeing to die for the convicted felon, I'm asking if you feel the Warden is showing his love for you by asking.

This is extremely easy to answer if Jesus is God. But if he's not, I wonder how it's answered.

Thanks for playing!

Well if you read the Bible Jesus always referred himself as “God’s son” or “ The son of God” like in John10:36; 11:4. Jesus never identified himself as God. In Mathew 26:39 Jesus prayed to God and everyone knows Jesus exampled prayer in Mathew 6:9 “Our Fathee in the heavens, let your name be santified”. Jesus even said in John14:28 “The father is greater than I am”. I get where people think he is God when he says in John 10:26-30 that “I and the Father are one” but Jesus was basically saying how close he was with his Father. Like i said Jesus never claimed he is God. In John 7:16 Jesus said “ what i teach is not mine, but belongs to Him (aka God) that sent me” so Jesus said his teachings belongs to Go. Other biblical texts are John 14:28, Mathew 28:18, Luke 3:21,22 (when Jesus got baptized and prayed to his Father), Philippians 2:9.....

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Well if you read the Bible Jesus always referred himself as “God’s son” or “ The son of God” like in John10:36; 11:4. Jesus never identified himself as God. In Mathew 26:39 Jesus prayed to God and everyone knows Jesus exampled prayer in Mathew 6:9 “Our Fathee in the heavens, let your name be santified”. Jesus even said in John14:28 “The father is greater than I am”. I get where people think he is God when he says in John 10:26-30 that “I and the Father are one” but Jesus was basically saying how close he was with his Father. Like i said Jesus never claimed he is God. In John 7:16 Jesus said “ what i teach is not mine, but belongs to Him (aka God) that sent me” so Jesus said his teachings belongs to Go. Other biblical texts are John 14:28, Mathew 28:18, Luke 3:21,22 (when Jesus got baptized and prayed to his Father), Philippians 2:9.....

Very good!
And welcome.

 

[Oeste]

Well if you read the Bible Jesus always referred himself as “God’s son” or “ The son of God” like in John10:36; 11:4. Jesus never identified himself as God.

Let's try this again then:

1. The Son of Frog is Frog
2. The Son of Dog is Dog
3. The Son of Man is Man
4. The Son of God is ____ ?

Unless one is extremely inconsistent with their logic, the answer becomes fairly obvious.

Now, using your answer from above, let's address your comments below:

In Mathew 26:39 Jesus prayed to God and everyone knows Jesus exampled prayer in Mathew 6:9 “Our Fathee in the heavens, let your name be santified”.

The Son of Man is Man, and Man has a Father in the heavens. Like all men, he is called upon to sanctify the Father. This does not prove Jesus is not God, it simply shows that he is a man.

Jesus even said in John14:28 “The father is greater than I am”.

Of course. Jesus is Son of Man, and man is not greater than our heavenly Father.

I get where people think he is God when he says in John 10:26-30 that “I and the Father are one” but Jesus was basically saying how close he was with his Father.

The Son of God is speaking here. That's why he could say "I and the Father are one". As God and man, he brings man in union with God and God in union with man. God is thus "all in all".

Like i said Jesus never claimed he is God.

Likewise we can conclude that the Son of Frog is not Frog, the Son of Dog is not Dog, and the Son of Man is not Man. It's the only way I see that one can fairly arrive at the conclusion the Son of God is not God.


How did you answer the OP?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

"The Son (son) of Frog is Frog.... (It's an entirely different frog, lol.)
The Son of God is ___"? Are you kidding me? Luke 3:38..."Adam, son of God" Genesis 6:2..."the sons of God". Etc. Were these ones, "God"? No.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Let's try this again then:

1. The Son of Frog is Frog
2. The Son of Dog is Dog
3. The Son of Man is Man
4. The Son of God is ____ ?

Hi @Oeste ,

Haven’t seen you around in a while.

Very soon we’ll have a family of gods as one god begets another. I don’t believe your analogy is the best but hey, if you feel it makes sense for ...

 

[Oeste]

Hi @Oeste ,

Haven’t seen you around in a while.

Hi @adrian009!

Unfortunately I've been flat out busy., trying (with various degrees of success) to keep up with work, but I miss this place when I'm away too long and always feel drawn back. I just wish I had more time to post.

I hope you are healthy and well. As always it's a pleasure to hear from you.

Very soon we’ll have a family of gods as one god begets another. I don’t believe your analogy is the best but hey, if you feel it makes sense for ...

Lol, you're as astute as ever. My initial analogy may have presumed a bit much but I'll take care of it on my next post.

 

[Oeste]

Well if you read the Bible Jesus always referred himself as “God’s son” or “ The son of God” like in John10:36; 11:4. Jesus never identified himself as God.

Let's try this again then:

1. The Son of Frog is Frog
2. The Son of Dog is Dog
3. The Son of Man is Man
4. The Son of God is ____ ?

"The Son (son) of Frog is Frog.... (It's an entirely different frog, lol.)

Yes, it's an entirely different frog, but it is still frog. Remember Hockeycowboy, I am a Trinitarian and @Marcello115's argument was that Jesus' identification as the Son of God did not imply he was God.

The Son of God is ___"? Are you kidding me?

No, but unless you do not realize the implications of what you're saying you could be kidding us.

Luke 3:38..."Adam, son of God" Genesis 6:2..."the sons of God". Etc. Were these ones, "God"? No.

Okay, you seem to have become confused by the analogy. I blame myself for this, not you, so let me be clear:

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. All others are made.​

So for those who were quickly confused by my earlier example, let’s try it again. This time I will not make assumptions of scriptural knowledge or recollection, and make explicit only "begotten", and not "made" sons are under consideration:

1. The (begotten) son of Frog is Frog.
2. The (begotten) son of Dog is Dog.
3. The (begotten) son of Man is Man.
4. The (begotten) son of God is ____?​

Same argument as before, just a bit more clear.

If anyone here understands that the only begotten son of Frog is NOT Frog, please explain.

If anyone here understands that the only begotten son of Frog is Dog, please explain.

If anyone here believes the only begotten son of Dog is Frog because it's a different Dog, please explain.

Otherwise, I am fairly confident that a logically consistent answer can be posted to what may appear, at first glance, to be a rather difficult riddle.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

A question for the Unitarians and other Christians who doubt Jesus is God:

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8​

Notice that it is GOD that demonstrates His love towards us but it is CHRIST who dies.

Let's pretend Jesus is NOT God, just like you claim. How is it GOD showing his love toward us by asking someone else to die?

If the Warden comes to your house and requests you die for someone who's currently in jail, someone who knows and confesses he's guilty, would you consider this an act of love by the Warden?

Remember, I'm not asking if you are loving by agreeing to die for the convicted felon, I'm asking if you feel the Warden is showing his love for you by asking.

This is extremely easy to answer if Jesus is God. But if he's not, I wonder how it's answered.

Thanks for playing!

The Torah says that God is not a man. Numbers 23:19,

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, it's an entirely different frog, but it is still frog. Remember Hockeycowboy, I am a Trinitarian and @Marcello115's argument was that Jesus' identification as the Son of God did not imply he was God.



No, but unless you do not realize the implications of what you're saying you could be kidding us.



Okay, you seem to have become confused by the analogy. I blame myself for this, not you, so let me be clear:

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. All others are made.​

So for those who were quickly confused by my earlier example, let’s try it again. This time I will not make assumptions of scriptural knowledge or recollection, and make explicit only "begotten", and not "made" sons are under consideration:

1. The (begotten) son of Frog is Frog.
2. The (begotten) son of Dog is Dog.
3. The (begotten) son of Man is Man.
4. The (begotten) son of God is ____?​

Same argument as before, just a bit more clear.

If anyone here understands that the only begotten son of Frog is NOT Frog, please explain.

If anyone here understands that the only begotten son of Frog is Dog, please explain.

If anyone here believes the only begotten son of Dog is Frog because it's a different Dog, please explain.

Otherwise, I am fairly confident that a logically consistent answer can be posted to what may appear, at first glance, to be a rather difficult riddle.

"Son of X" can be figurative. Israel is God's firstborn son. David is a son of God. In both cases it is figurative.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

A question for the Unitarians and other Christians who doubt Jesus is God:

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8​

Notice that it is GOD that demonstrates His love towards us but it is CHRIST who dies.

Let's pretend Jesus is NOT God, just like you claim. How is it GOD showing his love toward us by asking someone else to die?

If the Warden comes to your house and requests you die for someone who's currently in jail, someone who knows and confesses he's guilty, would you consider this an act of love by the Warden?

Remember, I'm not asking if you are loving by agreeing to die for the convicted felon, I'm asking if you feel the Warden is showing his love for you by asking.

This is extremely easy to answer if Jesus is God. But if he's not, I wonder how it's answered.

Thanks for playing!

John 3:16...(Notice, it doesn’t say “the Father”, as if needing to differentiate. It says “God”.)
Did Jesus send himself?

Jesus, being Jehovah God’s firstborn, is more precious to Him than anyone else...so it was showing a lot of love, to let His Son die for us. Is it any wonder that the Earth quaked, and the skies grew dark, when His son died?

 

[74x12]

The Torah says that God is not a man. Numbers 23:19,

God is not a man that lies. God doesn't lie. Jesus never lied.

Jesus is the "Word made flesh". That's the thing. He can't lie. Impossible.

 

[Iymus]

So for those who were quickly confused by my earlier example, let’s try it again. This time I will not make assumptions of scriptural knowledge or recollection, and make explicit only "begotten", and not "made" sons are under consideration:

1. The (begotten) son of Frog is Frog.
2. The (begotten) son of Dog is Dog.
3. The (begotten) son of Man is Man.
4. The (begotten) son of God is ____?​

Same argument as before, just a bit more clear.

If anyone here understands that the only begotten son of Frog is NOT Frog, please explain.


Otherwise, I am fairly confident that a logically consistent answer can be posted to what may appear, at first glance, to be a rather difficult riddle.[/QUOTE]

1. First and foremost a Son proceeds forth and comes from a Father. The Son of God is The Son of God our Father.

2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

2. What I really want to know is how can I explain without one pretending to be pronoun illiterate?

3. Before Me = Before Lord God our Father, No God Formed. After Me = After Lord God our Father No God formed.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

4. Jesus proceeded forth and came from God mentioned in Isa 43:10 neither of himself because that God sent him.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

5. further confirmation in John 13:3

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

6. Jesus said revealed thru prayer that his Father is the only true God. Only True means no other.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ,
whom thou hast sent.

7. Therefore the sons of God and the Son of God are not God because there is an only true God and besides him there is no other.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

8. At a minimum, if one cannot see that Lord God and our Lord are two different lords, with one being greater than the other and the only true God, then it seems pointless

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.