So Jesus is not God?

[TrueBeliever37]

You are not looking for an answer. You are just claiming anything said to you is false. ANYONE can see that I add book, chapter and verse to anything relevant that I quote. I do it so no one can accuse me of misquoting. If I quote off the top of my head then I add ‘(Paraphrased) to the quote. How is it you accuse me of not quoting?

It is evident from your responses that you have no intention to understand anything said to you. If us also evident that you don’t know the scriptures if you need to have chapter and verse shown to you. Anyone reading the scriptures knows the verses I point out to you / therefore you are not a Christian nor have even read the bible.

Boohoo to you - Conmen are always found out!

yep - you are definitely a poor debater. Unwilling to provide information to back up your claims. Unable to provide reasonable answers to some of the questions I posed. (which you said you would provide answers for by the way) So you have to resort to posts with personal attacks and outright lies.

 

[Soapy]

Sorry my friend, i didnt check. Is there a reason why you reject Jesus? Are you looking for someone else to come? This kind of reminds me of the book of Romans (which you probably havent read then) where Paul is having a very hard time convincing the Jews that you now dont need that Law of Moses and that you are justified through the faith.

Plus, since your Jewish (which I have no problem with, I consider myself to be a spiritual Jew, Romans 11 ) and probably think that your still under the law, then you still do the animal sacrifices and things like that then? Correct? But dont your neighbors complain when they hear animals being slaughtered and sacrificed in your back yard or where ever you do that? Just curious since you dont believe in the messiah and you believe that your still under the law of Moses.

But what about the books in the OT that tell us that Jesus would be the coming Messiah? You have books like Psalms, Isaiah, the prophet books. So much info on the coming Messiah. Not really sure why you wouldnt believe in that. You should also read the book of Romans some night. Paul is explaining to the Jews (and Gentiles) that everything has now changed. I really think that would be an eye opener for you.

Added to what you said, Moorea944, the Jews at the time of John the Baptist mostly believed that Jesus was the Messiah... up until Jesus turned out not to be a MILITARY MESSIAH.

And what greater miracles are required to prove the messiahship of the Son of God... was there another man who DID NOTHING SINFUL (except for Adam up until he did sin!!)??

Yes, you are right to ask why the person you are responding to does not believe what the scriptures says... exactly what ARE SUCH ONES waiting for??

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Hi moorea944,

I never did hear back from you regarding post#493. When I post questions, the intent is to show how the opposing belief doesn't seem to hold up.

Also since Soapy is unable or unwilling to answer. Would you please give what you think are answers to questions 1,2, and 3 in my post #497?

We may not agree, but you at least seem to be reasonable to discuss things with.

 

[Soapy]

yep - you are definitely a poor debater. Unwilling to provide information to back up your claims. Unable to provide reasonable answers to some of the questions I posed. (which you said you would provide answers for by the way) So you have to resort to posts with personal attacks and outright lies.

Why do you keep going on about personal attacks...?

What is it you are seeking? Revelations speaks clearly about the one who sits (sat) on the throne in deference to the one who stand in front of the throne.

For sure, Jesus is ‘First and Last’... but ‘first and last’ WHAT?

For sure, Jesus is ‘the alpha and the omega’... but alpha and omega of WHAT?

For sure, Jesus is ‘The beginning and the End’... but then beginning and the end of WHAT?

For sure, Jesus ‘Lord’ ... and YHWH is ‘Lord’.. but they are not the SAME ‘Lord’... YHWH DELEGATED HIS LORDSHIP to Jesus... YHWH delegates the rulership over creation TO JESUS just as Pharoah delegated the management of the great famine to JOSEPH, in Egypt. Joseph was NOT PHAROAH... Joseph only ACTED IN PLACE of Pharoah UNTIL the famine was over. So, also, Jesus ACTS IN PLACE OF YHWH until the great SPIRITUAL FAMINE (that we are in right now) is over... whereupon Jesus HANDS BACK POWER AND SUTHORITY TO HIM (YHWH) who gave it to him (to rule for a 1000 years!).

So, if Jesus is HANDED POWER AND AUTHORITY TO RULE... and hands it back.., How is Jesus ALMIGHTY... BEFORE and AFTER he has the ALMIGHTY POWER... and, indeed, who is it that is therefore THE ALMIGHTY???

Take care to note that though YHWH gave Jesus almighty power, YHWH is STILL GOD above Jesus... just as when Pharoah hands his power and authority to Joseph, Pharoah is STILL KING AND RULER over Joseph!!

 

[Soapy]

Soapy was claiming there was a Hebrew idiom where "before" means "greater than" - is that true?

I had simply asked him to provide proof. Is that unreasonable in a debate?

What is with you?

“Before Abraham was, I am”... what the hell does that mean???

The Jews did not pick up stones to stone Jesus because he ‘said he was ALMIGHTY GOD’... for goodness sake... if the Jews thought Jesus was saying he was ALMIGHTY GOD then why didn’t they ‘fall to the ground and worship Jesus’????

Instead they were so irate they wanted to kill him... kill ALMIGHTY GOD??? Come on...!!!!!

No, Jesus was ASKED if he was GREATER THAN their greatest Forefather, Patriarch, ABRAHAM.
Jesus replies: “YES I AM”... So, now, the Jews are absolutely LIVID that a MAN, a young man of just 33 years old should claim to be greater than their greatest patriarch... some know him from Capernaum, from Bethlehem, from Nazareth and have said, ‘Can anything good come out of Nazareth!!’? Yet they should have known their scriptures telling that the messiah was to come from there... they were expecting a MILTARY MESSIAH and so were incensed that a meek and mild mannered every-day-looking young man should claim to be that messiah... yet they also knew Isaiah 42:1 where YHWH says exactly who and what the messiah would be...!!!

You need to stop listening to the trinitarian nonsense about “I Am” being the NAME OF YHWH... .... IT IS NOT!!! YHWH’s NAME is YHWH...

Moreover, the language Jesus spoke was ARAMAIC... ‘I Am’ in Aramaic is NOT ‘I Am’, nor is it ‘YHWH’... and in fact, the text was written in GREEK.... which is ‘EGO EIMI’...

Everyone says ‘EGO EIMI’ at some time and multiple times in their lives... even in the VERY NEXT CHAPTER a man born blind who was healed is asked if he absolutely is that sane man... he answers: ‘EGO EIMI’... ‘I AM’... YET NO ONE CLAIM HIM TO BE ALMIGHTY GOD... how strange!!!

And yet the incident concerning Abraham is not the only time Jesus uses ‘EGO EIMI’ but no one falls down and worships him for saying it...

Why??? Because ‘EGO EIMI’ is NOT THE NAKE OF GOD!!!!!!!

Moreover, just imagine GOD’s name was ‘FRED’...: ‘Before Abraham, FRED’...!!!

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Why do you keep going on about personal attacks...?

What is it you are seeking? Revelations speaks clearly about the one who sits (sat) on the throne in deference to the one who stand in front of the throne.

For sure, Jesus is ‘First and Last’... but ‘first and last’ WHAT?

For sure, Jesus is ‘the alpha and the omega’... but alpha and omega of WHAT?

For sure, Jesus is ‘The beginning and the End’... but then beginning and the end of WHAT?

For sure, Jesus ‘Lord’ ... and YHWH is ‘Lord’.. but they are not the SAME ‘Lord’... YHWH DELEGATED HIS LORDSHIP to Jesus... YHWH delegates the rulership over creation TO JESUS just as Pharoah delegated the management of the great famine to JOSEPH, in Egypt. Joseph was NOT PHAROAH... Joseph only ACTED IN PLACE of Pharoah UNTIL the famine was over. So, also, Jesus ACTS IN PLACE OF YHWH until the great SPIRITUAL FAMINE (that we are in right now) is over... whereupon Jesus HANDS BACK POWER AND SUTHORITY TO HIM (YHWH) who gave it to him (to rule for a 1000 years!).

So, if Jesus is HANDED POWER AND AUTHORITY TO RULE... and hands it back.., How is Jesus ALMIGHTY... BEFORE and AFTER he has the ALMIGHTY POWER... and, indeed, who is it that is therefore THE ALMIGHTY???

Take care to note that though YHWH gave Jesus almighty power, YHWH is STILL GOD above Jesus... just as when Pharoah hands his power and authority to Joseph, Pharoah is STILL KING AND RULER over Joseph!!

You can't have two that are both the first and the last. Based on what it says in Isaiah 44:6, where YHWH said he was the first and the last, and there was no God beside him. - First and last would be making a claim that he is the only God.

There is only one Lord. Ephesians 4:5

He isn't handing back his rule. There is no end to his kingdom. He will rule forever as it says in the scripture. Luke 1:33

You see how I make a point and then give a scripture to prove it?

 

[moorea944]

You can't have two that are both the first and the last. Based on what it says in Isaiah 44:6, where YHWH said he was the first and the last, and there was no God beside him. - First and last would be making a claim that he is the only God.

There is only one Lord. Ephesians 4:5

He isn't handing back his rule. There is no end to his kingdom. He will rule forever as it says in the scripture. Luke 1:33

You see how I make a point and then give a scripture to prove it?

I do notice with you that when someone gives an answer you still never believe him or her. But anyhow...

In Isaiah 44v6, why did God tell people that He was the first and last? Was there a reason for that? And first and last of what? Read what is before verse 6.... God is telling them that He is the only God that they need. He is the first God and last God that they will ever need. I really dont know how else that your seeing this.
Jesus is from and to everlasting for a reason. God does not have a beginning so He is only to everlasting.

[There is only one Lord. Ephesians 4:5.]
That is correct. So does that make Jesus God? No, of course not.

 

[moorea944]

You can't have two that are both the first and the last. Based on what it says in Isaiah 44:6, where YHWH said he was the first and the last, and there was no God beside him. - First and last would be making a claim that he is the only God.

There is only one Lord. Ephesians 4:5

He isn't handing back his rule. There is no end to his kingdom. He will rule forever as it says in the scripture. Luke 1:33

You see how I make a point and then give a scripture to prove it?

Your taking things out of context again...

 

[Soapy]

You can't have two that are both the first and the last. Based on what it says in Isaiah 44:6, where YHWH said he was the first and the last, and there was no God beside him. - First and last would be making a claim that he is the only God.

There is only one Lord. Ephesians 4:5

He isn't handing back his rule. There is no end to his kingdom. He will rule forever as it says in the scripture. Luke 1:33

You see how I make a point and then give a scripture to prove it?

You are not worthy of discussion nor debate.

Your views are worthless except to cause controversy due to inherent i capability to understand what is being spoken or written to you.

Delegation of authority and power does not entail duplication of the officer from whom the power and authority came from.

If a Father loans his car to his son the son is not the owner of the car. The son may be in charge for a period of time and responsible for anything coming from incidents with the car (parking fines, accident damage, etc) but the car OWNERSHIP is still registered as the Father.

THERE ARE NOT TWO OWNERS.

‘Lord’ is NOTHING compared to ‘GOD’!

‘Lord’ just means like, ‘Master, Leader, superior,...’.
‘God’ means like, ‘Ultimate, Supreme, Ruler, Absolute,...’.

So ‘God’ is above ‘Lord’.

Anyone can be ‘Lord’, but only one can he ’God’ - in a context...

And it is this lack of pointing out the CONTEXT that confuses (or is deliberately used) by trinitarians.

A Judge is GOD in his courtroom. He is not ALMIGHTY GOD ... but only the ultimate, the ruler, IN HIS courtroom. Another judge will be GOD in another courtroom...

The CONTEXT in the scenario above is ‘the courtroom’. Obviously there are ‘GODS’ above those judges OUTSIDE the courtroom... : Judges do not always go by their own laws but adhere and UPHOLD greater laws which age given to them from a GREATER GOD, a greater RULER... a committee of Rulers or judgement society.

So Jesus being ‘Lord’ has nothing to do with YHWH being ‘Lord’ because the CONTEXT are not the same.

Yet, even so:

• ‘GOD made this man whom you know, to be BOTH Lord AND MESSIAH’

So, if you don’t know this verse... tough... look it up... anyone who is desiring to debate should know this verse!!!

Jesus said, concerning the Greeks who came to him:

• ‘The Greek desire PROOF... but no proof shall be shown to them!!’

You are therefore ‘GREEK’!!!

And, by the way, Jesus wasn’t congratulating them - understand what I mean: ‘Those who have ears to hear, let them hear!!’

 

[Soapy]

I do notice with you that when someone gives an answer you still never believe him or her. But anyhow...

In Isaiah 44v6, why did God tell people that He was the first and last? Was there a reason for that? And first and last of what? Read what is before verse 6.... God is telling them that He is the only God that they need. He is the first God and last God that they will ever need. I really dont know how else that your seeing this.
Jesus is from and to everlasting for a reason. God does not have a beginning so He is only to everlasting.

[There is only one Lord. Ephesians 4:5.]
That is correct. So does that make Jesus God? No, of course not.

Hi Moorea944, I would take this adversary with a pinch of salt (I’m not superstitious, I’m just using the term loosely!!)
That poster is merely being antagonistic and malicious. It’s typical of Trinitarians who try to get true believers (???!!!) suspended - so unlike me (I’m used to getting thrown off forums!!) please try to be delicate with him / her - there are those destined from the start to NEVER COME TO AN UNDERSTANDING concerning ALMIGHTY God, the Father: YHWH, and his high priest, and only true Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I do notice with you that when someone gives an answer you still never believe him or her. But anyhow...

In Isaiah 44v6, why did God tell people that He was the first and last? Was there a reason for that? And first and last of what? Read what is before verse 6.... God is telling them that He is the only God that they need. He is the first God and last God that they will ever need. I really dont know how else that your seeing this.
Jesus is from and to everlasting for a reason. God does not have a beginning so He is only to everlasting.

[There is only one Lord. Ephesians 4:5.]
That is correct. So does that make Jesus God? No, of course not.

moorea,
I'm not going to believe what someone tells me unless they convince me with proof in the scriptures. Just because they give an answer doesn't mean it was something true or accurate. Surely you know that. You don't believe what everyone tells you either. You shouldn't - you should consider it though and see if it holds up to all the scriptures.

You gave the same answer above that I was giving regarding first and last. It means the first and the last God. My point is - for YHWSH the messiah to claim that in the new testament, he was claiming to be the one and only God. He was YHWH manifest in the flesh. Not as the trinitarians are saying - another person in the Godhead. But actually YHWH dwelling in that body.

The fleshly body YHWH took on did have a beginning. But the eternal Spirit (YHWH) was from everlasting.

The name YHWH was replaced with saying adonai by the Jews. Adonai translates as Lord (master) in our language. If they hadn't tampered with the scriptures and took the name of God out, you would see that the verses that say things like every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, would say they will confess that "YHWSH is YHWH".

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Hi Moorea944, I would take this adversary with a pinch of salt (I’m not superstitious, I’m just using the term loosely!!)
That poster is merely being antagonistic and malicious. It’s typical of Trinitarians who try to get true believers (???!!!) suspended - so unlike me (I’m used to getting thrown off forums!!) please try to be delicate with him / her - there are those destined from the start to NEVER COME TO AN UNDERSTANDING concerning ALMIGHTY God, the Father: YHWH, and his high priest, and only true Son, Jesus Christ.

More of your lies. And, I have told over and over I am not trinitarian.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Your taking things out of context again...

You say that, but explain how.

 

[moorea944]

moorea,
I'm not going to believe what someone tells me unless they convince me with proof in the scriptures. Just because they give an answer doesn't mean it was something true or accurate. Surely you know that. You don't believe what everyone tells you either. You shouldn't - you should consider it though and see if it holds up to all the scriptures.

You gave the same answer above that I was giving regarding first and last. It means the first and the last God. My point is - for YHWSH the messiah to claim that in the new testament, he was claiming to be the one and only God. He was YHWH manifest in the flesh. Not as the trinitarians are saying - another person in the Godhead. But actually YHWH dwelling in that body.

The fleshly body YHWH took on did have a beginning. But the eternal Spirit (YHWH) was from everlasting.

YHWH was replaced with saying adonai by the Jews. Adonai translates as Lord (master) in our language. If they hadn't tampered with the scriptures and took the name of God out, you would see that the verses that say things like every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, would say they will confess that "YHWSH is YHWH".

A few things that I cringe at on your posts. (no offense).
[My point is - for YHWSH the messiah to claim that in the new testament, he was claiming to be the one and only God.]
For YHWSH the messiah????... YHWSH or Yahweh is our Heavenly Father. Jesus is the Messiah....
[He was YHWH manifest in the flesh.]
I think your not understanding what manifestation means.....

[But actually YHWH dwelling in that body.]

So.... God came down from Heaven and made Himself to live or dwell in a human body? For what reason? So was God praying to Himself then? Not quit sure what your saying here. Very confusing. If God was here in earth, who was in Heaven? Doesnt make sense, does it.... But doesnt scripture tell us that God had a son? Also, scripture tells us that God was working "through" His son. God manifestation right there!! Jesus can in his father's name. Doesnt scripture tell us that?

Again... Deut 18 and 2 Sam 7..... God "working through" a son or coming Messiah.... He is the son of God, but also the son of David.

 

[moorea944]

You say that, but explain how.

Example....... "I and my father are one." Your saying that since Jesus is saying that, he's telling everyone he's God. But that's not what he's saying.....

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You are not worthy of discussion nor debate.

Your views are worthless except to cause controversy due to inherent i capability to understand what is being spoken or written to you.

Delegation of authority and power does not entail duplication of the officer from whom the power and authority came from.

If a Father loans his car to his son the son is not the owner of the car. The son may be in charge for a period of time and responsible for anything coming from incidents with the car (parking fines, accident damage, etc) but the car OWNERSHIP is still registered as the Father.

THERE ARE NOT TWO OWNERS.

‘Lord’ is NOTHING compared to ‘GOD’!

‘Lord’ just means like, ‘Master, Leader, superior,...’.
‘God’ means like, ‘Ultimate, Supreme, Ruler, Absolute,...’.

So ‘God’ is above ‘Lord’.

Anyone can be ‘Lord’, but only one can he ’God’ - in a context...

And it is this lack of pointing out the CONTEXT that confuses (or is deliberately used) by trinitarians.

A Judge is GOD in his courtroom. He is not ALMIGHTY GOD ... but only the ultimate, the ruler, IN HIS courtroom. Another judge will be GOD in another courtroom...

The CONTEXT in the scenario above is ‘the courtroom’. Obviously there are ‘GODS’ above those judges OUTSIDE the courtroom... : Judges do not always go by their own laws but adhere and UPHOLD greater laws which age given to them from a GREATER GOD, a greater RULER... a committee of Rulers or judgement society.

So Jesus being ‘Lord’ has nothing to do with YHWH being ‘Lord’ because the CONTEXT are not the same.

Yet, even so:

• ‘GOD made this man whom you know, to be BOTH Lord AND MESSIAH’

So, if you don’t know this verse... tough... look it up... anyone who is desiring to debate should know this verse!!!

Jesus said, concerning the Greeks who came to him:

• ‘The Greek desire PROOF... but no proof shall be shown to them!!’

You are therefore ‘GREEK’!!!

And, by the way, Jesus wasn’t congratulating them - understand what I mean: ‘Those who have ears to hear, let them hear!!’

Are you unable to understand that I am not a Trinitarian? How many times do you have to be told?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

A few things that I cringe at on your posts. (no offense).
[My point is - for YHWSH the messiah to claim that in the new testament, he was claiming to be the one and only God.]
For YHWSH the messiah????... YHWSH or Yahweh is our Heavenly Father. Jesus is the Messiah....
[He was YHWH manifest in the flesh.]
I think your not understanding what manifestation means.....

[But actually YHWH dwelling in that body.]

So.... God came down from Heaven and made Himself to live or dwell in a human body? For what reason? So was God praying to Himself then? Not quit sure what your saying here. Very confusing. If God was here in earth, who was in Heaven? Doesnt make sense, does it.... But doesnt scripture tell us that God had a son? Also, scripture tells us that God was working "through" His son. God manifestation right there!! Jesus can in his father's name. Doesnt scripture tell us that?

Again... Deut 18 and 2 Sam 7..... God "working through" a son or coming Messiah.... He is the son of God, but also the son of David.

Jesus is not the true name of the messiah. His name was YHWSH. The same name as the one called Joshua the successor to Moses had. Look his name up in Strong's. (#3091) - and see what the Hebrew characters are.

Yes - YHWH was going to come down and tread on the high places of the earth. (Read all of these verses following to see what the high places are he was talking about.) Micah 1:3-5

 

[Soapy]

I think these forum all have their stooge poster whose job it is to post nonsense to keep the thread going.

 

[Soapy]

Are you unable to understand that I am not a Trinitarian? How many times do you have to be told?

I didn’t say you were trinitarian. I said you were like a trinitarian...

 

[Soapy]

Are you unable to understand that I am not a Trinitarian? How many times do you have to be told?

I notice you have nothing to say about the truth here spoken.... :

• Delegation of authority and power does not entail duplication of the officer from whom the power and authority came from.
  
  If a Father loans his car to his son the son is not the owner of the car. The son may be in charge for a period of time and responsible for anything coming from incidents with the car (parking fines, accident damage, etc) but the car OWNERSHIP is still registered as the Father.
  
  THERE ARE NOT TWO OWNERS.
  
  ‘Lord’ is NOTHING compared to ‘GOD’!
  
  ‘Lord’ just means like, ‘Master, Leader, superior,...’.
  ‘God’ means like, ‘Ultimate, Supreme, Ruler, Absolute,...’.
  
  So ‘God’ is above ‘Lord’.
  
  Anyone can be ‘Lord’, but only one can he ’God’ - in a context...
  
  And it is this lack of pointing out the CONTEXT that confuses (or is deliberately used) by trinitarians.
  
  A Judge is GOD in his courtroom. He is not ALMIGHTY GOD ... but only the ultimate, the ruler, IN HIS courtroom. Another judge will be GOD in another courtroom...
  
  The CONTEXT in the scenario above is ‘the courtroom’. Obviously there are ‘GODS’ above those judges OUTSIDE the courtroom... : Judges do not always go by their own laws but adhere and UPHOLD greater laws which age given to them from a GREATER GOD, a greater RULER... a committee of Rulers or judgement society.
  
  So Jesus being ‘Lord’ has nothing to do with YHWH being ‘Lord’ because the CONTEXT are not the same.
  
  Yet, even so:
  • ‘GOD made this man whom you know, to be BOTH Lord AND MESSIAH’
  So, if you don’t know this verse... tough... look it up... anyone who is desiring to debate should know this verse!!!
  
  Jesus said, concerning the Greeks who came to him:
  • ‘The Greek desire PROOF... but no proof shall be shown to them!!’
  You are therefore ‘GREEK’!!!
  
  And, by the way, Jesus wasn’t congratulating them - understand what I mean: ‘Those who have ears to hear, let them hear!!’