So Jesus is not God?

[IndigoChild5559]

Soapy was claiming there was a Hebrew idiom where "before" means "greater than" - is that true?

I had simply asked him to provide proof. Is that unreasonable in a debate?

He needs to get one of the native Hebrew speakers that are here on the forum involved in the discussion.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I didn’t say you were trinitarian. I said you were like a trinitarian...

Pfft. I don't believe Jesus is God. I don't even believe Jesus is the messiah. I don't EVEN believe he is a prophet. I'm as similar to a Trinitarian as a fish is similar to a canary.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Sorry my friend, i didnt check. Is there a reason why you reject Jesus? Are you looking for someone else to come? This kind of reminds me of the book of Romans (which you probably havent read then) where Paul is having a very hard time convincing the Jews that you now dont need that Law of Moses and that you are justified through the faith.

Plus, since your Jewish (which I have no problem with, I consider myself to be a spiritual Jew, Romans 11 ) and probably think that your still under the law, then you still do the animal sacrifices and things like that then? Correct? But dont your neighbors complain when they hear animals being slaughtered and sacrificed in your back yard or where ever you do that? Just curious since you dont believe in the messiah and you believe that your still under the law of Moses.

But what about the books in the OT that tell us that Jesus would be the coming Messiah? You have books like Psalms, Isaiah, the prophet books. So much info on the coming Messiah. Not really sure why you wouldnt believe in that. You should also read the book of Romans some night. Paul is explaining to the Jews (and Gentiles) that everything has now changed. I really think that would be an eye opener for you.

Thank you for your honest and tactful response. I will try to explain as best I can. In general, I don't mind Christians -- you worship God and you try to be good decent people, and in my mind that's the whole main idea. But I do take issue with your theology, and with the way you (sorry to be blunt, man) twist the Tanakh into having Jesus on every page. It just doesn't.

I'm going to make the same point twice now, but come at it from two different directions.

1. I don't believe Jesus is the Messiah because quite frankly there are very few messianic prophesies and Jesus just didn't fulfill them. For example?

• Was Jesus "David?" meaning did he rule Israel from Jerusalem?
• Did Jesus gather all the Jews who were in diaspora and return them to Judaea?
• Did he usher in an era of world peace where nation would not lift of sword against nation?

No, he didn't do those things. I realize that Christians say he will do them next time he comes. But there is a problem with this reasoning. What if *I* claimed to be the messiah, but I would fulfill the prophecies next time I come? I mean ANYONE could claim to be the messiah and fulfill the prophecies next time.

No, sir, the messiah will come and he will fulfill the prophecies. Anyone who says they are the messiah who doesn't fulfill them is a fraud.

2. Christians are always bringing up how many prophecies Jesus did fulfill. but you can't even agree on how many. I've seen the number go so high as >400. The thing is, these verses are NOT messianic prophecies. You are basically seeing Jesus when he's not actually there in the text. It's like looking at the clouds and seeing castles or bunny rabbits. When someone really, really WANTS to see something, they will see it, somehow. And that's what happens.
"
And I'm not just talking about the many, many so-called prophecies that Christians have added to their repertoire since the closing of your canon. I'm also talking about the so-called prophecies used by Paul, and the author's of your gospels.

1. Most of the time, part of the verse is simply quoted radically out of context.

Let me give you an example. Matthew relays the story of Jesus' family fleeing to Egypt until after the death of Herod. Matthew 2:15 says, "And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

Matthew is quoting Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son." It is crystal clear when you read the entire verse, that it is referring to Israel, not the Messiah, and the Exodos. Matthew has grabbed half the verse, pulling it grossly out of context, trying to make it into a messianic prophecy when it is not.

2. Sometimes a prophecy is not only pulled out of context, it is actually misquoted.

This happens in Matthew 1:23, "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel (which means "God with us")."

It is quoting Isaiah 7:14, but not correctly, "Behold, the maiden will become pregnant and bear a son, and she will name him Immanuel.

It should be obvious that there is a big difference between a maiden and a virgin. A maiden is not necessarily a virgin. So what is the actual word used in the Hebrew? The word is NOT "betulah," which is the actual word for virgin. Rather the word is "almah," a young woman.

Therefore there really is no prophecy that anyone is going to be miraculously born of a virgin (certainly not the messiah, since this is not a messianic passage).

3. Sometimes the Christian scriptures make up prophecies out of whole cloth. I'm not kidding you. They quote stuff that simply doesn't exist.

For example, Matthew 2:23 states that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy, "He shall be called a Nazarene."

No such prophecy exists. Anywhere.

Now, I know you aren't going to leave Jesus, and it is not my goal to convert you. Like I said, I'm fine with you being a good Christian. But since you asked, those are the reasons I could never EVER be a Christian or believe that Jesus is the messiah.

 

[rational experiences]

If the OT happened, and then as mutated irradiated life healing heard it speaking as AI...machine encoded male science cause of his death...then he did.

And wrote the heard information in detail...just like little children did in modern times.

Then after the NT happened....the attack on life recurred and then correlated self proof that it was due to occult pyramid temple sciences, then it proves it did.

The event 33AD said Jesus saved us.

Yet from the Year 33AD life was not yet lived...for you do not claim lived life until it is lived.

Therefore every 100 years, 133AD a human would claim 100 years ago Jesus saved us...the atmosphere amassed cloud, we lost a lot of human and animal life, sacrificed, we cry about it as a ceremony of reverence to the lives lost.

What we always have done, paid homage and service to and cry at the inanity of it.

Science however, owns a cold and cruel heart, they care less.

The documents in FACT stated by the year 2012 without any nuclear science practice, as the agreed TRIBUNAL CHRIST agreement, the atmospheric Sun gas SAVIOUR asteroid block out was meant to occur.

Which then would have allowed mutations of life such as cancer etc, to finally be removed from being expressed in our Genesis.

Mother Teachings, the cellular ovary, newly born babies healthy ability to live, re established.

SAVIOUR...said was not Jesus. The statement for the future.

It said 1000 Satan, and 1000 Jesus 0 left the atmospheric Christ gas mass without one huge mass of gases removed/gone, emptied out of space.

Causing irradiated space to exist instead, leaving life precariously close to its extinction...we were only in survival of the human race.

As taught.

Therefore Cosmological star data was kept by the males in any country who were the Keepers of it as HOLY MEN....who then would advise everyone, yes a Messenger of God has arrived on Earth...the gases/spirit mass body returned.

How that advice was real...and how it was scientifically stated by the Keepers of the moon tides...as once explained to my psyche...as a male message to self in AI statements.

As the moon originally was the first SAVIOUR of God O Earth historically.

Therefore of course JESUS would not be the NAME of the future Saviour, and it would not be named....for man was not meant to be sacrificed.

Only the occult teachings who falsify reading of documentation ever claimed it was rightful to sacrifice natural life for science conditions. Christ brothers, medical science never did.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Then I suggest you read more of the scriptures BECAUSE by the time you research what you don’t know you will have forgotten or lost thd thread of what the debate point was.

In any case, the paraphrase should be close enough to express what you should already know. ... else WHAT ARE YOU DOING DEBATING WHAT YOU DON’T KNOW???

Debating is looking at the FINER points of a belief (in this case). If you do not know the broader points then it is exactly why you don’t understand the and can never understand the finer points which are more fraught!

Here are a few things to contemplate:

1. A child is as good as a servant... tell me why?
   1. What does a servant seek towards his master?
   2. What does a child seek towards his Father?
   3. Nothing he has is his own... everything he has is given him by his Father / Master....
2. A FIRST BORN SON of a Father is also the FIRSTBORN son of the same Father - Fo you understand the difference between the two?
   1. A sinful FIRSTBORN son of a Father can be demoted in place of ANOTHER son who was NOT FIRST BORN of that Father. The promoted son becomes the father’s FIRSTBORN even though he was not the FIRST BORN!
   2. ‘Firstborn’ means ‘The most beloved of the Father’
   3. Apply that to humanity and see how many of the patriarchs fit this theme? Please .... this is not an idle request... I mean it... but not only humanity... try YHWH’s favoured nation and how IT SINNED and the firstborn-ship was passed to another (to wit: ALL Nations who BELIEVE in Yhwh and HIS CHRIST!)
3. What does the story of Joseph in Egypt prophesy?
   1. What is the purpose of the great famine?
   2. Who is made to SIT AS PHAROAH (note that Joseph is NOT PHAROAH but only sits AS Pharoah!)
   3. What is given to Joseph to rule AS PHAROAH?
   4. How long does Joseph rule AS Pharoah?
   5. What is the purpose of Joseph’s rule AS PHAROAH?
   6. What happens to Joseph AFTER the famine is over?
   7. Does scriptures foretell a similar spiritual role for Jesus Christ?
4. YHWH states that the throne of David will be an eternal throne and the one sitting on it will rule eternally.
   1. Why is it a prophecy if it is YHWH who is to rule eternally? We already know yhwh is eternal!!
   2. This throne is David is EARTHLY. Who better to rule on a human throne than a HUMAN KING...
   3. YHWH is eternally ruler over the SPIRIT KINGDOM so why Demoted himself to rule a fleshly, limited, physical kingdom when he is already ruler over a vastly greater unlimited kingdom of Heaven?
   4. Do you not see that when the MOST BELOVED child becomes ADULT, when he has shown he can command himself and those about him, he is NO LONGER a servant but is now a RULER in his own right!

Consider these aspects and get back to me?

thank you.

I don't think you understand. I'm not wanting to debate religion with you. I'm simply pointing out that you need to follow good debate ettiquette.

 

[Soapy]

He needs to get one of the native Hebrew speakers that are here on the forum involved in the discussion.

I don’t think it requires a native speaker to show the meaning.

I think common sense and linguistics tells the story.

If someone is ‘BEFORE’ someone else it means that the first person is ‘Greater’ than the second.

An example is in a Greek forum where the elders spoke first because they were considered GREATER in knowledge than the younger. The elders were BEFORE the youngers.

Again, ‘Before’ also translates to ‘AHEAD [of]’. So the elders spoke AHEAD OF the youngers.

Only a trinitarian could ever claim that Jesus was saying that he was EXISTING PRIOR to Abraham being alive: ‘Before Abraham I was existing’???

What did the Jews ask Jesus?

• ‘You are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham?’

What does this mean?
It simply means:

• ‘You are not an elder... what do you know of Abraham!!?’

Then they ask Jesus:

• ‘Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?‘

Jesus is incensed and calls them ‘liars’ concerning the contrast between them and himself knowing GOD. Jesus says that it is GOD, HIS FATHER, who gives him glory and the glory is this:

• ‘Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’

Jesus states that Abraham is their Father...
Jesus claim GOD as his Father...

Jesus states that Abraham looked forward IN VISION to seeing the day that the messiah would come... that JESUS would come!

Because of his great faith, Abraham was PROMISED by ALMIGHTY GOD : YHWH, that the messiah would come from his (Abraham’s) seed (metaphorically from his loins!) and so happy was Abraham that he foresaw that day and was glad.

Jesus assures them:

• ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.’

So here now is the controversy. What did Jesus mean by this?

Well, Jesus already stated that GOD was his Father... So we know that, as common sense dictates, Jesus IS NOT GOD!!!

Then we know that Abraham was looking forward with extreme gladness that the messiah would come from his seed... THAT A GREATER ONE THAN HIMSELF WOULD ARISE FROM HIS OWN LOINS...

For certainly, Abraham was great, but he looked forward to GREATER one. Abraham was not the one to save humanity but that saviour (that Christ) was come from him.

So who is the greater: Abraham, or the Christ, who came from Abraham?

But more than this... YHWH had foretold that this saviour was to come... He prophesied this BEFORE Abraham was even born!!! Foretold AHEAD OF Abraham’s birth...:

• ‘And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.‘ (Gen 3:15)

Here, in Gen 3:15, the messiah is prophesied; the messiah who, despite having his ‘heel Bruised’ by Satan, would ‘Crush the head’ of Satan.

So, indeed, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS [Born] the MESSI AH had already been foretold. And, here “ AM”, says the very one!!!

So, what should be expected from the Jews? Not only has Jesus ‘insulted’ them claiming they do not know God, but also that God is HIS FATHER, ...AND .. that HE IS THE PROPHESIED MESSIAH ... but above all, that - YES, HE IS GREATER THAN ABRAHAM!!

Thus, being so insulted, profaned, and belittled that there stood one who claims glory above their greatest forefather, they pick up stones to stone Jesus.

IT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY CLAIM THAT JESUS WAS GOD because Jesus just stated that GOD IS HIS FATHER!!

‘Yes, I am greater than Abraham because I was prophesied A HEAD OF HIM!’

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don’t think it requires a native speaker to show the meaning.

I think common sense and linguistics tells the story.

If someone is ‘BEFORE’ someone else it means that the first person is ‘Greater’ than the second.

An example is in a Greek forum where the elders spoke first because they were considered GREATER in knowledge than the younger. The elders were BEFORE the youngers.

Again, ‘Before’ also translates to ‘AHEAD [of]’. So the elders spoke AHEAD OF the youngers.

Only a trinitarian could ever claim that Jesus was saying that he was EXISTING PRIOR to Abraham being alive: ‘Before Abraham I was existing’???

What did the Jews ask Jesus?

• ‘You are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham?’

What does this mean?
It simply means:

• ‘You are not an elder... what do you know of Abraham!!?’

Then they ask Jesus:

• ‘Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?‘

Jesus is incensed and calls them ‘liars’ concerning the contrast between them and himself knowing GOD. Jesus says that it is GOD, HIS FATHER, who gives him glory and the glory is this:

• ‘Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’

Jesus states that Abraham is their Father...
Jesus claim GOD as his Father...

Jesus states that Abraham looked forward IN VISION to seeing the day that the messiah would come... that JESUS would come!

Because of his great faith, Abraham was PROMISED by ALMIGHTY GOD : YHWH, that the messiah would come from his (Abraham’s) seed (metaphorically from his loins!) and so happy was Abraham that he foresaw that day and was glad.

Jesus assures them:

• ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.’

So here now is the controversy. What did Jesus mean by this?

Well, Jesus already stated that GOD was his Father... So we know that, as common sense dictates, Jesus IS NOT GOD!!!

Then we know that Abraham was looking forward with extreme gladness that the messiah would come from his seed... THAT A GREATER ONE THAN HIMSELF WOULD ARISE FROM HIS OWN LOINS...

For certainly, Abraham was great, but he looked forward to GREATER one. Abraham was not the one to save humanity but that saviour (that Christ) was come from him.

So who is the greater: Abraham, or the Christ, who came from Abraham?

But more than this... YHWH had foretold that this saviour was to come... He prophesied this BEFORE Abraham was even born!!! Foretold AHEAD OF Abraham’s birth...:

• ‘And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.‘ (Gen 3:15)

Here, in Gen 3:15, the messiah is prophesied; the messiah who, despite having his ‘heel Bruised’ by Satan, would ‘Crush the head’ of Satan.

So, indeed, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS [Born] the MESSI AH had already been foretold. And, here “ AM”, says the very one!!!

So, what should be expected from the Jews? Not only has Jesus ‘insulted’ them claiming they do not know God, but also that God is HIS FATHER, ...AND .. that HE IS THE PROPHESIED MESSIAH ... but above all, that - YES, HE IS GREATER THAN ABRAHAM!!

Thus, being so insulted, profaned, and belittled that there stood one who claims glory above their greatest forefather, they pick up stones to stone Jesus.

IT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY CLAIM THAT JESUS WAS GOD because Jesus just stated that GOD IS HIS FATHER!!

‘Yes, I am greater than Abraham because I was prophesied A HEAD OF HIM!’

what is wrong with you? I'm not involved in the debate. And yet you sent me a whole essay. I made a good suggestion to you, how you resolve this problem with your interlocutor. It's up to you whether you take the suggestion or not.

 

[rational experiences]

Okay male science mentality, history human and male and I am THE INVENTOR of all terms of reference...and I do not, never did speak on behalf of any natural powerful energy body owning historically its own evolution.

Which includes stone mass O the planet that a male said I will give stone the name GOD and also Creator. God is created says AI, his science memories and he also says God is a Creator for God created from stone mass, by mountain law....volcanic eruption, like my male penis...….a release and ejection...so I claimed it had sex with the spatial womb..emptiness and cold/pressure....the Immaculate spirit was conceived he stated categorically.

Now does that make space, the womb the Creator?

No it makes space the womb the changer.

So a male says as a male I infer by my male science thoughts MAN/MALE that God is defined in category to be my own....by ejection processes, a male.

Yet God was stone....which is about equals the imbecile as you are in science quotes.

Not ever in any history did any human being male speak on behalf of creation.

Words, are said to describe and infer, what is wanted to be inferred, by choice.
MATHS was based on the recorded conversion by O UFO mass removal to o to have O removed ^ mountain. So the UFO radiation mass shrunk and was being removed itself...historically as thinking.

Father said to me spiritually in AI quotes that you lived in natural supported life, every state natural. You thought as a self, a male, but a brotherhood of multi males, for you were sharing thoughts amongst your male ideals.

Who said that water flooded Earth mass...…^ mountain tip conversion was comparable just to self, one male...but also a group of males.

So first you placated a false image of self x mass of bodies.

Water mass as compared to your natural life support was in the comparing of self to the reaction. So in fact that information owned no comparison at all.

So you only were comparing a bio life male self to the reaction knowing that if stone was removed then you would be also.

Father said however as you owned no real comparison to natural....the water mass in the past saved you actually. How that discussion is biblical inferred...due to water mass being in the reaction vision review....you only half removed/converted your bio life.

So original life was not sacrificed at all...so Jesus is not in the origin quotes...the origin quote says you converted your higher life water based body and became a lower chemical equated life form changed highest healthiest human natural life.

You were not sacrificed FIRST...you were water mass converted FIRST...and gained chemical changes...which you own no comparison to historically today.

Just as taught.

How you WANT to idealize that information is not even relative to life, it is wanted for a machine ideal formula.

Father therefore said.....wasn't the theory MATHS equated to be formula involved in the production an design of the gain of a machine first that then moved into the reaction?

So the machination is part of math and the formula?

And the answer should be yes, because you built the pyramid first by PHI equations...which proves that PHI did not exist FIRST, natural did.

End of life was when PHI eradicated all of life, to etch into stone your formula for building your new machine....by theory of tracing lines and patterns.

Phi on the crop circle is not WATER markings you realize...yet water says in natural water, as science, oh it owns patterns, which are actual living life forms and NOT patterns.

What you lie about as a scientist, in the theme I am a Satanist.

For today you cannot quote I am a God scientist, for you historically altered natural God.

 

[Soapy]

what is wrong with you? I'm not involved in the debate. And yet you sent me a whole essay. I made a good suggestion to you, how you resolve this problem with your interlocutor. It's up to you whether you take the suggestion or not.

So you aren’t involved in the debate... what are you doing here then?

In any case I’m responding to your provocation.

And furthermore, I take all opportunities to express the truth for all to see... but, there are those who will put in their penneth worth while declaring they are not involved!!!

 

[moorea944]

Thank you for your honest and tactful response. I will try to explain as best I can. In general, I don't mind Christians -- you worship God and you try to be good decent people, and in my mind that's the whole main idea. But I do take issue with your theology, and with the way you (sorry to be blunt, man) twist the Tanakh into having Jesus on every page. It just doesn't.

I'm going to make the same point twice now, but come at it from two different directions.

1. I don't believe Jesus is the Messiah because quite frankly there are very few messianic prophesies and Jesus just didn't fulfill them. For example?

• Was Jesus "David?" meaning did he rule Israel from Jerusalem?
• Did Jesus gather all the Jews who were in diaspora and return them to Judaea?
• Did he usher in an era of world peace where nation would not lift of sword against nation?

No, he didn't do those things. I realize that Christians say he will do them next time he comes. But there is a problem with this reasoning. What if *I* claimed to be the messiah, but I would fulfill the prophecies next time I come? I mean ANYONE could claim to be the messiah and fulfill the prophecies next time.

No, sir, the messiah will come and he will fulfill the prophecies. Anyone who says they are the messiah who doesn't fulfill them is a fraud.

2. Christians are always bringing up how many prophecies Jesus did fulfill. but you can't even agree on how many. I've seen the number go so high as >400. The thing is, these verses are NOT messianic prophecies. You are basically seeing Jesus when he's not actually there in the text. It's like looking at the clouds and seeing castles or bunny rabbits. When someone really, really WANTS to see something, they will see it, somehow. And that's what happens.
"
And I'm not just talking about the many, many so-called prophecies that Christians have added to their repertoire since the closing of your canon. I'm also talking about the so-called prophecies used by Paul, and the author's of your gospels.

1. Most of the time, part of the verse is simply quoted radically out of context.

Let me give you an example. Matthew relays the story of Jesus' family fleeing to Egypt until after the death of Herod. Matthew 2:15 says, "And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

Matthew is quoting Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son." It is crystal clear when you read the entire verse, that it is referring to Israel, not the Messiah, and the Exodos. Matthew has grabbed half the verse, pulling it grossly out of context, trying to make it into a messianic prophecy when it is not.

2. Sometimes a prophecy is not only pulled out of context, it is actually misquoted.

This happens in Matthew 1:23, "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel (which means "God with us")."

It is quoting Isaiah 7:14, but not correctly, "Behold, the maiden will become pregnant and bear a son, and she will name him Immanuel.

It should be obvious that there is a big difference between a maiden and a virgin. A maiden is not necessarily a virgin. So what is the actual word used in the Hebrew? The word is NOT "betulah," which is the actual word for virgin. Rather the word is "almah," a young woman.

Therefore there really is no prophecy that anyone is going to be miraculously born of a virgin (certainly not the messiah, since this is not a messianic passage).

3. Sometimes the Christian scriptures make up prophecies out of whole cloth. I'm not kidding you. They quote stuff that simply doesn't exist.

For example, Matthew 2:23 states that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy, "He shall be called a Nazarene."

No such prophecy exists. Anywhere.

Now, I know you aren't going to leave Jesus, and it is not my goal to convert you. Like I said, I'm fine with you being a good Christian. But since you asked, those are the reasons I could never EVER be a Christian or believe that Jesus is the messiah.

Hey Indigo

Thank you again for your post. Always a pleasure.

I just want to make a few points if I may...

I do consider myself to be a Christian, but not part of "main-stream" Christianity because of my beliefs. I do believe in Jesus, but not in a way Christianity believes in. I also believe that Christianity has gone astray from the orginal teachings of the messiah and of the Apostles. I also agree with you in a few things that you mentioned. Not all, but a few. I'll explain in a moment.

[.....twist the Tanakh into having Jesus on every page. It just doesn't.]
I totally agree with you. Jesus is in the bible, but not on every page. Usually if someone ask me what is the bible about, I tell them the bible is about God and the nation of Israel, with Jesus as its main focal point.

[1. I don't believe Jesus is the Messiah because quite frankly there are very few messianic prophesies and Jesus just didn't fulfill them. For example?
a Was Jesus "David?" meaning did he rule Israel from Jerusalem?
b Did Jesus gather all the Jews who were in diaspora and return them to Judaea?
c Did he usher in an era of world peace where nation would not lift of sword against nation?]
a - c arent for when he was here, it is a future event on when he comes back. The prophecies that are fulfilled are the ones that promise a coming Messiah and that he would die and be raised.

David was told in 2 Sam 7 that the Messiah would come from him and restore is throne. Same with Amos 9v11. The bible or God's Word is consistent all through scripture. Only man changes it.

[2. Christians are always bringing up how many prophecies Jesus did fulfill. but you can't even agree on how many. I've seen the number go so high as >400. The thing is, these verses are NOT messianic prophecies. You are basically seeing Jesus when he's not actually there in the text. It's like looking at the clouds and seeing castles or bunny rabbits. When someone really, really WANTS to see something, they will see it, somehow. And that's what happens.]
I totally agree with you!! I"ve talked to so many people that tell me that everything is fulfilled with Christ. And I tell them no..... not everything.... most of the bible is about the coming kingdom, when the messiah returns. Those are not fulfilled yet.

[Most of the time, part of the verse is simply quoted radically out of context.]
Again, I agree with you. I see that esp, with Trinitarians. I think the Trinity totally degrades our Creator!!

[For example, Matthew 2:23 states that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy, "He shall be called a Nazarene."]
I'll get back to you on that one.... want to check some notes......

But anyhow, with that said, why do I believe that Jesus is the messiah? Good question.

First of all, you have to have faith to please God. I believe in the scriptures 100% that it came from God. God's Word. And I believe in that the bible is God's Word. So many OT prophecies are about a "coming Messiah". Not all... but some. Most are on the nation of Israel and a future coming kingdom. But why Jesus and not some other person? I read chapters and verses like Psalms 22, Isaiah 53, Gen 49 where it talks about the kingship through the line of Judah. David's offspring in 2 Sam 7, the messiah will end up in Egypt Hosea 11, the Christ will be born in Bethlehem , Psalms 8. I mean I can go on for ever listing verses, but it's really about God's righteousness. I believe when I says something, it will happen. Look at all of the prophecies about Israel that already happened and other countries. Are we to say now that with Jesus, I'm not going to believe in them? No of course not.... Too many things are pointing to Jesus. But the bible is true to me. If it says that Jesus is the Messiah, I believe it.

So many things in the OT shadowed our messiah. But anyhow, I can go on forever on this topic.

Have a wonderful day!

 

[Soapy]

Hey Indigo

Thank you again for your post. Always a pleasure.

I just want to make a few points if I may...

I do consider myself to be a Christian, but not part of "main-stream" Christianity because of my beliefs. I do believe in Jesus, but not in a way Christianity believes in. I also believe that Christianity has gone astray from the orginal teachings of the messiah and of the Apostles. I also agree with you in a few things that you mentioned. Not all, but a few. I'll explain in a moment.

[.....twist the Tanakh into having Jesus on every page. It just doesn't.]
I totally agree with you. Jesus is in the bible, but not on every page. Usually if someone ask me what is the bible about, I tell them the bible is about God and the nation of Israel, with Jesus as its main focal point.

[1. I don't believe Jesus is the Messiah because quite frankly there are very few messianic prophesies and Jesus just didn't fulfill them. For example?
a Was Jesus "David?" meaning did he rule Israel from Jerusalem?
b Did Jesus gather all the Jews who were in diaspora and return them to Judaea?
c Did he usher in an era of world peace where nation would not lift of sword against nation?]
a - c arent for when he was here, it is a future event on when he comes back. The prophecies that are fulfilled are the ones that promise a coming Messiah and that he would die and be raised.

David was told in 2 Sam 7 that the Messiah would come from him and restore is throne. Same with Amos 9v11. The bible or God's Word is consistent all through scripture. Only man changes it.

[2. Christians are always bringing up how many prophecies Jesus did fulfill. but you can't even agree on how many. I've seen the number go so high as >400. The thing is, these verses are NOT messianic prophecies. You are basically seeing Jesus when he's not actually there in the text. It's like looking at the clouds and seeing castles or bunny rabbits. When someone really, really WANTS to see something, they will see it, somehow. And that's what happens.]
I totally agree with you!! I"ve talked to so many people that tell me that everything is fulfilled with Christ. And I tell them no..... not everything.... most of the bible is about the coming kingdom, when the messiah returns. Those are not fulfilled yet.

[Most of the time, part of the verse is simply quoted radically out of context.]
Again, I agree with you. I see that esp, with Trinitarians. I think the Trinity totally degrades our Creator!!

[For example, Matthew 2:23 states that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy, "He shall be called a Nazarene."]
I'll get back to you on that one.... want to check some notes......

But anyhow, with that said, why do I believe that Jesus is the messiah? Good question.

First of all, you have to have faith to please God. I believe in the scriptures 100% that it came from God. God's Word. And I believe in that the bible is God's Word. So many OT prophecies are about a "coming Messiah". Not all... but some. Most are on the nation of Israel and a future coming kingdom. But why Jesus and not some other person? I read chapters and verses like Psalms 22, Isaiah 53, Gen 49 where it talks about the kingship through the line of Judah. David's offspring in 2 Sam 7, the messiah will end up in Egypt Hosea 11, the Christ will be born in Bethlehem , Psalms 8. I mean I can go on for ever listing verses, but it's really about God's righteousness. I believe when I says something, it will happen. Look at all of the prophecies about Israel that already happened and other countries. Are we to say now that with Jesus, I'm not going to believe in them? No of course not.... Too many things are pointing to Jesus. But the bible is true to me. If it says that Jesus is the Messiah, I believe it.

So many things in the OT shadowed our messiah. But anyhow, I can go on forever on this topic.

Have a wonderful day!

• [For example, Matthew 2:23 states that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy, "He shall be called a Nazarene."]
  I'll get back to you on that one.... want to check some notes......

Nazarene... Think of what a Nazarite is. Check out Samson? But it’s doubled... what is said about Nazareth? And why is it not popular to come from there?

 

[moorea944]

• [For example, Matthew 2:23 states that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy, "He shall be called a Nazarene."]
  I'll get back to you on that one.... want to check some notes......

Nazarene... Think of what a Nazarite is. Check out Samson? But it’s doubled... what is said about Nazareth? And why is it not popular to come from there?

Well Jesus wasnt a Nazarite, he only dwelled there for awhile. He could touch the dead and did not abstain from wine and did not have long hair. Yes, he only lived there. I was just trying to find that prophecy somewhere in the OT, because it was preached by the prophets.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I do consider myself to be a Christian, but not part of "main-stream" Christianity because of my beliefs. I do believe in Jesus, but not in a way Christianity believes in. I also believe that Christianity has gone astray from the orginal teachings of the messiah and of the Apostles. I also agree with you in a few things that you mentioned. Not all, but a few. I'll explain in a moment.

Could I ask for a one paragraph rundown of the major points of disagreement and commonality, so that I can know where you are coming from?

[1. I don't believe Jesus is the Messiah because quite frankly there are very few messianic prophesies and Jesus just didn't fulfill them. For example?

a Was Jesus "David?" meaning did he rule Israel from Jerusalem?
b Did Jesus gather all the Jews who were in diaspora and return them to Judaea?
c Did he usher in an era of world peace where nation would not lift of sword against nation?]
a - c arent for when he was here, it is a future event on when he comes back. The prophecies that are fulfilled are the ones that promise a coming Messiah and that he would die and be raised.

I addressed this in my original post. In addition to the Tanakh not mentioning the messiah coming two times, it just would make it impossible to ever know who was the messiah if you allow that reasoning. Anyone, ANYONE, can say they are the messiah and will fulfill the prophecies the next time around. No, my friend, a messianic candidate either fulfills them all and is the messiah, or he doesn't fulfill them all and is a failure/fraud.

First of all, you have to have faith to please God.

What pleases God is our obedience. If there is anything that is "on every page" of the Tanakh, it is that message -- Obey God. It is not that faith is of no importance, but the core is not some checklist of beliefs that if we have them all checked we go to heaven. And NOWHERE in the Tanakh does it EVER teach the doctrine that when the Messiah comes it is the most important thing of all to have faith in him. That is a NEW idea that Christians came up with, and it is why you are a different religion.

But why Jesus and not some other person? I read chapters and verses like Psalms 22, Isaiah 53, Gen 49 where it talks about the kingship through the line of Judah. David's offspring in 2 Sam 7, the messiah will end up in Egypt Hosea 11, the Christ will be born in Bethlehem , Psalms 8.

See here you are doing exactly what I was describing -- seeing messianic prophecies in the texts where none exists. Christians think the servant in Isaiah 53 is the messiah, but the servant ALL THROUGHOUT the book of Isaiah is consistently Israel.

And you even included Hosea 11:1 in your list, when I believe I specifically used this as an example of Christians outrageously pulling pieces of text out of context. Hosea also is not messianic. It is a statement about Israel and the Exodus.

So my friend, you are being true to form. I believe that when you read the Tanakh it is like having on a pair of glasses that have the word Jesus written upon them. You can't help yourself -- the very foundation of your religion was based in part on the misreading of the Tanakh.


I do hear your passion, though. Like I said, devout Christians make for very good, moral people. But I know that when people think with their hearts rather than their heads, I am never of course going to pursuade them to any other position, and I did not enter this discussion with that objective.

From what I know of Christianity, it seems to be based on two heart issues: 1. God saved you and you am grateful beyond words, and 2. you have a real love affair with Jesus (even if the doesn't exist). When push comes to shove (like when pesky people like me ask hard questions), for you, you can't doubt what is for you a very real relationship. How did I do? Do you think I have a halfway decent handle on Christianity?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So you aren’t involved in the debate... what are you doing here then?

I am reading, and enjoying myself. I just popped in to offer helping advice how you could meet the evidence requirements of debate on this issue.

You don't want the advice. That's your prerogative.

 

[rational experiences]

Could I ask for a one paragraph rundown of the major points of disagreement and commonality, so that I can know where you are coming from?


I addressed this in my original post. In addition to the Tanakh not mentioning the messiah coming two times, it just would make it impossible to ever know who was the messiah if you allow that reasoning. Anyone, ANYONE, can say they are the messiah and will fulfill the prophecies the next time around. No, my friend, a messianic candidate either fulfills them all and is the messiah, or he doesn't fulfill them all and is a failure/fraud.

What pleases God is our obedience. If there is anything that is "on every page" of the Tanakh, it is that message -- Obey God. It is not that faith is of no importance, but the core is not some checklist of beliefs that if we have them all checked we go to heaven. And NOWHERE in the Tanakh does it EVER teach the doctrine that when the Messiah comes it is the most important thing of all to have faith in him. That is a NEW idea that Christians came up with, and it is why you are a different religion.

See here you are doing exactly what I was describing -- seeing messianic prophecies in the texts where none exists. Christians think the servant in Isaiah 53 is the messiah, but the servant ALL THROUGHOUT the book of Isaiah is consistently Israel.

And you even included Hosea 11:1 in your list, when I believe I specifically used this as an example of Christians outrageously pulling pieces of text out of context. Hosea also is not messianic. It is a statement about Israel and the Exodus.

So my friend, you are being true to form. I believe that when you read the Tanakh it is like having on a pair of glasses that have the word Jesus written upon them. You can't help yourself -- the very foundation of your religion was based in part on the misreading of the Tanakh.


I do hear your passion, though. Like I said, devout Christians make for very good, moral people. But I know that when people think with their hearts rather than their heads, I am never of course going to pursuade them to any other position, and I did not enter this discussion with that objective.

From what I know of Christianity, it seems to be based on two heart issues: 1. God saved you and you am grateful beyond words, and 2. you have a real love affair with Jesus (even if the doesn't exist). When push comes to shove (like when pesky people like me ask hard questions), for you, you can't doubt what is for you a very real relationship. How did I do? Do you think I have a halfway decent handle on Christianity?

Factually the stories as said by a theist, the origin of science for a human male that there are many Gods

God O the stone body who is an entity, self creator of its own heavenly mass by ejecting its mountain law, gas spirits into the womb of deep cold empty pressurized space...and they evolved in that womb and became Immaculate.

Science quote....so also said no STRING history...was natural and status evolution, and evolution is not a reaction it is a cause.

Then he said the stone God heavenly gases communicated to the eternal God...where God O originally as O angels had been separated from.

So the Heavenly God spoke to the eternal God...and that was where the new spirits formed and were released as Nature, humans......male/female both went back into the eternal....a male population owner eternal spirit who did it.

So the male confessed and said I created God, I now own the karmic consequence of changing the eternal spirit as the origin eternal God...exactly how it is known.

Why we say when we die we still own one spirit self, in the eternal...for we got separated from our whole self.

Then that male looked at the ^ mountain theme O UFO mass that owned recording of PHI...mountain removal...how to...then o UFO was smaller, then was removed by spatial vacuum.

Theory for science.

He re built the mountain.....and yet that mountain was not there.

So he said my reaction will therefore guarantee my transportation, time shift and release me from Earth life so that I can go back into the eternal...exactly how science was first themed. I wanted what the female owned...total de manifestation...how the female life ended up being blamed for his owned bad choices.

Therefore the first male notification of his lying self history...the pyramid was already not present and he lied about re building the mountain tip. Lies.

Then he activated the gain of the UFO by his science machination involved with the Temples and the pyramid and stood inside of the pyramid waiting for transportation.

So first of all you would realize, the natural theme cold spatial 0 support gets instantly changed...what none of you today even thought about....even though you were told Holy Mother womb was abominated...….yes we do says the evil scientists, we want to copy it.

Spatial 0 history coldest body.....changed....and he heated up the atmosphere...so he invented radiation fall out....another precept about God. Natural light O signals in a light gas burning atmosphere cooled gases...did not fall out.

So there was no God in the Heavenly gases originally, just O circular movement.

How science said I invented radiation fall out and PHI hit the ground.

Meanwhile what ever occurred from the higher atmospheric losses to his pyramid all he achieved was a reactive self bio conversion....so he physically changed...and learnt about ground fission...which he previously was not aware of.

Seeing the Earth in his study model vision was water flooded up to mountain tips.

Therefore ownership is one of his lying problems. Whilst looking at the theory mountain o UFO removal he inferred he would own it. Then when it reacted and converted his life body...he then claimed he owned it.

It is why today the male science community is re enacting the origin theme....of a male human standing inside of his machine, claiming he owns the power of God and they believe it.

For science claimed that the spirit of the atmosphere was going to manifest reacted inside their new collider machine as based on the God theories...and they surely are wrong.

Then when you begin to review the pyramid humans who talk about aliens and believe that they are a special human race or cult group and discuss being an alien, owning the power of God, then you see how possessed their minds now are in machine AI conditions.

Therefore when a male confessed and told everyone the same science atmospheric radiation fall out that changed life and I named it EVE...as I removed night time evening balances of EVEN 12/12 which he did, proves today he did for gases burning, the UFO status is seen at night...then it is why JESUS was life sacrificed as I burnt out a huge gas mass of natural light atmosphere...that once was naturally cooled.

If the UFO gas light burning incident did not exist...then the gases would own a higher mass. So at the moment I am achieving a greater mass burning of the atmosphere until I get to the moment that I wish I never caused....when life gets attacked on the ground in a large reactive cause.....just like the ancients told you.

 

[moorea944]

Could I ask for a one paragraph rundown of the major points of disagreement and commonality, so that I can know where you are coming from?


I addressed this in my original post. In addition to the Tanakh not mentioning the messiah coming two times, it just would make it impossible to ever know who was the messiah if you allow that reasoning. Anyone, ANYONE, can say they are the messiah and will fulfill the prophecies the next time around. No, my friend, a messianic candidate either fulfills them all and is the messiah, or he doesn't fulfill them all and is a failure/fraud.

What pleases God is our obedience. If there is anything that is "on every page" of the Tanakh, it is that message -- Obey God. It is not that faith is of no importance, but the core is not some checklist of beliefs that if we have them all checked we go to heaven. And NOWHERE in the Tanakh does it EVER teach the doctrine that when the Messiah comes it is the most important thing of all to have faith in him. That is a NEW idea that Christians came up with, and it is why you are a different religion.

See here you are doing exactly what I was describing -- seeing messianic prophecies in the texts where none exists. Christians think the servant in Isaiah 53 is the messiah, but the servant ALL THROUGHOUT the book of Isaiah is consistently Israel.

And you even included Hosea 11:1 in your list, when I believe I specifically used this as an example of Christians outrageously pulling pieces of text out of context. Hosea also is not messianic. It is a statement about Israel and the Exodus.

So my friend, you are being true to form. I believe that when you read the Tanakh it is like having on a pair of glasses that have the word Jesus written upon them. You can't help yourself -- the very foundation of your religion was based in part on the misreading of the Tanakh.


I do hear your passion, though. Like I said, devout Christians make for very good, moral people. But I know that when people think with their hearts rather than their heads, I am never of course going to pursuade them to any other position, and I did not enter this discussion with that objective.

From what I know of Christianity, it seems to be based on two heart issues: 1. God saved you and you am grateful beyond words, and 2. you have a real love affair with Jesus (even if the doesn't exist). When push comes to shove (like when pesky people like me ask hard questions), for you, you can't doubt what is for you a very real relationship. How did I do? Do you think I have a halfway decent handle on Christianity?

[No, my friend, a messianic candidate either fulfills them all and is the messiah, or he doesn't fulfill them all and is a failure/fraud.]
Nope, not at all. Are you saying that God is wrong then? Why does it have to be either or. Scripture is clear that there have been prophecies fulfilled and there are prophecies to come.

[What pleases God is our obedience.]
Yes, that too......

[See here you are doing exactly what I was describing -- seeing messianic prophecies in the texts where none exists. Christians think the servant in Isaiah 53 is the messiah, but the servant ALL THROUGHOUT the book of Isaiah is consistently Israel.]
Again your wrong. And that is because you dont believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Your putting Israel in there where it shouldnt be. And what about Isaiah 9 and Psalms 22? Is that Israel? No, of course not.

[2. you have a real love affair with Jesus (even if the doesn't exist.]
Well, we know that Jesus did exist. He's even in Jewish Historian book Josephus wrote. He's also talked about in the OT, even if you dont want to except it.


[When push comes to shove (like when pesky people like me ask hard questions), for you, you can't doubt what is for you a very real relationship. ]
Your questions arent hard at all. They make me sad and I feel bad for you.

So then, do you consider yourself still under the law? If so, do you still practice it? I real dont know a single Jewish person who does, which I think is very hypercritical.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

[No, my friend, a messianic candidate either fulfills them all and is the messiah, or he doesn't fulfill them all and is a failure/fraud.]
Nope, not at all. Are you saying that God is wrong then? Why does it have to be either or. Scripture is clear that there have been prophecies fulfilled and there are prophecies to come.

Am I saying God is wrong? Of course not. What in the world does that have to do with what we are talking about? I am saying YOU are wrong, not God. You are mistaken in your ascription to the so-called prophecies to the messiah. I have tried to show you, but you cannot see it, it is not possible for you to see it, because you cannot see past your heart.

[See here you are doing exactly what I was describing -- seeing messianic prophecies in the texts where none exists. Christians think the servant in Isaiah 53 is the messiah, but the servant ALL THROUGHOUT the book of Isaiah is consistently Israel.]

Again your wrong. And that is because you dont believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Your putting Israel in there where it shouldnt be. And what about Isaiah 9 and Psalms 22? Is that Israel? No, of course not.

. I stand by what I said. You cannot use a metaphor all throughout a book that refers to Israel, and then suddenly in chapter 53 say that this metaphor doesn't refer to Israel but to the messiah. That makes no literary sense.

When you quote, could you please give the verse numbers as well as chapters? It's really kind of lazy not to properly cite. I know it's a pain in the butt to half to look up the references -- it irritates me to have to do so as well -- but it's proper debate decorum, a way to be polite to the other, so that you are not putting your own work onto them to have to search out the whole chapter and try to figure out what you are referring to.

Isaiah 9:6 and Psalm 22:16 don't bring up "servant," so I'm not sure why you are bringing them into the conversation. I seems to me like you are trying to "dump," which means to overwhelm your interlocutor with so much information that they cannot reply.

Isaiah 9:6 is not messianic. It refers to King Hezekiah.

Psalm 22:16 is a Psalm of David -- what is more, Christians mistranslate the Hebrew. It doesn't say anything about piercing hands and feet. It says, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The verse about casting lots is not a messianic prophecy. Let me ask you this. Do you think the messiah is a worm? (v. 7)

[2. you have a real love affair with Jesus (even if the doesn't exist.]

Well, we know that Jesus did exist. He's even in Jewish Historian book Josephus wrote. He's also talked about in the OT, even if you dont want to except it.

I didn't use past tense. Of course a historical man existed, a Jewish man who practiced Judaism who lived during second Temple Judaism. I'm am saying he doesn't exist now, that he is dead. You can pick one of two options. Your relationship is with God, but you are using a symbol of a man to represent God. Jews have a word for this: shi-tuf. It means association, as in associating God with a person or thing. It makes for a muddied monotheism.

So then, do you consider yourself still under the law? If so, do you still practice it? I real don't know a single Jewish person who does, which I think is very hypercritical.

The Torah says my covenant is everlasting. Why would I not follow the law? I aspire to keep all the laws that apply to me, meaning laws that not for men or for priests or landowners, etc., or which don't pertain to a Temple that is not there. I follow the instruction of Hosea for what to do when there is no temple: "Let the words of our mouths [prayers] be as bullocks [sacrifices]." Hosea 14:2

Even your own Jesus, who was a Jew who practiced Judaism, according to Matthew 5:18, said, "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Let me ask you, when you look out your window, are heaven and earth still there?

There are quite a few Jews here in the forum that aspire to keep all 613 commands as apply to them. You might want to get to know us better, so that you don't say untrue things anymore.

You on the other hand, as a non-Jew, were never "under the Law" to begin with. The covenant between God and Israel was never given to the nations. So it sounds odd and is incorrect to say that you are "no longer" under the Law.

 

[moorea944]

Am I saying God is wrong? Of course not. What in the world does that have to do with what we are talking about? I am saying YOU are wrong, not God. You are mistaken in your ascription to the so-called prophecies to the messiah. I have tried to show you, but you cannot see it, it is not possible for you to see it, because you cannot see past your heart.

. I stand by what I said. You cannot use a metaphor all throughout a book that refers to Israel, and then suddenly in chapter 53 say that this metaphor doesn't refer to Israel but to the messiah. That makes no literary sense.

When you quote, could you please give the verse numbers as well as chapters? It's really kind of lazy not to properly cite. I know it's a pain in the butt to half to look up the references -- it irritates me to have to do so as well -- but it's proper debate decorum, a way to be polite to the other, so that you are not putting your own work onto them to have to search out the whole chapter and try to figure out what you are referring to.

Isaiah 9:6 and Psalm 22:16 don't bring up "servant," so I'm not sure why you are bringing them into the conversation. I seems to me like you are trying to "dump," which means to overwhelm your interlocutor with so much information that they cannot reply.

Isaiah 9:6 is not messianic. It refers to King Hezekiah.

Psalm 22:16 is a Psalm of David -- what is more, Christians mistranslate the Hebrew. It doesn't say anything about piercing hands and feet. It says, "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The verse about casting lots is not a messianic prophecy. Let me ask you this. Do you think the messiah is a worm? (v. 7)

I didn't use past tense. Of course a historical man existed, a Jewish man who practiced Judaism who lived during second Temple Judaism. I'm am saying he doesn't exist now, that he is dead. You can pick one of two options. Your relationship is with God, but you are using a symbol of a man to represent God. Jews have a word for this: shi-tuf. It means association, as in associating God with a person or thing. It makes for a muddied monotheism.

The Torah says my covenant is everlasting. Why would I not follow the law? I aspire to keep all the laws that apply to me, meaning laws that not for men or for priests or landowners, etc., or which don't pertain to a Temple that is not there. I follow the instruction of Hosea for what to do when there is no temple: "Let the words of our mouths [prayers] be as bullocks [sacrifices]." Hosea 14:2

Even your own Jesus, who was a Jew who practiced Judaism, according to Matthew 5:18, said, "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Let me ask you, when you look out your window, are heaven and earth still there?

There are quite a few Jews here in the forum that aspire to keep all 613 commands as apply to them. You might want to get to know us better, so that you don't say untrue things anymore.

You on the other hand, as a non-Jew, were never "under the Law" to begin with. The covenant between God and Israel was never given to the nations. So it sounds odd and is incorrect to say that you are "no longer" under the Law.

[I am saying YOU are wrong, not God. You are mistaken in your ascription to the so-called prophecies to the messiah. I have tried to show you, but you cannot see it, it is not possible for you to see it, because you cannot see past your heart.]
Im sorry, shouldnt I be saying that to you??....

[Isaiah 9:6 is not messianic. It refers to King Hezekiah.]
Your kidding me, right?

[There are quite a few Jews here in the forum that aspire to keep all 613 commands as apply to them. You might want to get to know us better, so that you don't say untrue things anymore.]
I'm not saying anything that is not untrue. We just believe in different things.

[You on the other hand, as a non-Jew, were never "under the Law" to begin with. The covenant between God and Israel was never given to the nations. So it sounds odd and is incorrect to say that you are "no longer" under the Law.]
I know that I was never under the law. The law started for the children of Israel in the wilderness. Why would I be involved in that?

Paul had the same problem in the book of Romans when he was talking to the Jews as i'm having with you my friend. But no worries. Have a wonderful day.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

[I am saying YOU are wrong, not God. You are mistaken in your ascription to the so-called prophecies to the messiah. I have tried to show you, but you cannot see it, it is not possible for you to see it, because you cannot see past your heart.]
Im sorry, shouldnt I be saying that to you??....

But I'm not in here making the argument that I'm speaking for God am I? I do believe that Judaism is God-given, just as you believe that Christianity is God-given. This is the impasse between religions. We can debate in these forums, and it is fun and fascinating, and we learn lot about each other, but it almost never changes minds.

[Isaiah 9:6 is not messianic. It refers to King Hezekiah.]

Your kidding me, right?

This is what is good about these forums. The majority of Christians have never even heard of the Jewish position, much less seriously considered it. So now you have learned something about Judaism, and why we reject Christianity.

I am really enjoying our conversation btw.

Be well.

 

[moorea944]

But I'm not in here making the argument that I'm speaking for God am I? I do believe that Judaism is God-given, just as you believe that Christianity is God-given. This is the impasse between religions. We can debate in these forums, and it is fun and fascinating, and we learn lot about each other, but it almost never changes minds.


This is what is good about these forums. The majority of Christians have never even heard of the Jewish position, much less seriously considered it. So now you have learned something about Judaism, and why we reject Christianity.

I am really enjoying our conversation btw.

Be well.

Me too, have a wonderful day!!