So what’s so great about a Christian heaven?

[waitasec]

scratches head. Thinks of ommmmmm

No one knows another person's need. That is what no one knows. OK we know some things. There might be someone out there that needs a kind word. Sometimes just to see someone clicked "like" once in a while. You know?

that is superficial, imo.

I have showed people kindness that were starved for it. How did I know what and when to reach out? Chance? I don't think so, but you do and that's A OK with me. I believe heaven put me in a position to help so I will keep looking to it to help me help others. For me most important is the future. To do kindness for the future. It's an investment. I have time.

empathy is what we all have, well those that are sociopaths would be the exception i suppose, we can relate to others because we share all but one 100th of one percent of our genes.

 

[savagewind]

I do not agree that it is superficial for one person to reach out to another person to let them know they are recognizable and appreciated. If a person never gets the feeling they are noticed, how is their life any better than death?

 

[Nakosis]

FOREVER.

And then some....

Heaven as paradise? Sounds like Hell to me.

Excuse me while I pour myself a nice hefty snifter-full of cognac, fire up a decent cigar, sit back in my comfy chair, and watch a TiVo’d Bill Maher on my wide-screen TV in rich Dolby Surround.

While I still can...

I suspect in Heaven you'll be able to create whatever reality you want. Create Hell create anything you can dream up. You can get lost in your creation for a few billion years if you want, until you get tired of it. You set up the game, you set up the rules. You can sit back and watch Bill Maher or you can make him dance. Your reality would be up to you.

 

[waitasec]

I do not agree that it is superficial for one person to reach out to another person to let them know they are recognizable and appreciated.
If a person never gets the feeling they are noticed, how is their life any better than death?

perpetuating superficial acceptance is shallow. sure it's fun, but what does it really mean...? that you gave or got
5 seconds of fame/recognition in the virtual reality of social media? i doubt a person on line is going to put their lives on the line if they don't reach their quota of "likes" on facebook. if they do...they've got some heavy issues to deal with in their real life.

what one needs to 1st worry about is how they feel about themselves through their own eyes, not do things for the purpose of getting virtual "likes".
and more to the point of the thread, not for the purpose of a reward from someone other than themselves. standing with the courage of ones conviction is the best reward one can give themselves.

 

[savagewind]

I know. But a person can post and post and post ..... and never get an answer NOT EVEN A CLICK. OK? So the person never will know even if she is being read. A click should mean "I hear ya". That's what I meant. Thank you for talking to me!

One of my passwords was "solitary confinement" because that is how I feel. And that was BEFORE another 3000 posts. I'm not going to post that much here.

 

[waitasec]

I know. But a person can post and post and post ..... and never get an answer NOT EVEN A CLICK. OK? So the person never will know even if she is being read. A click should mean "I hear ya". That's what I meant. Thank you for talking to me!
One of my passwords was "solitary confinement" because that is how I feel. And that was BEFORE another 3000 posts. I'm not going to post that much here.

i'm sorry to hear that.

 

[s2a]

Guilty as charged. Please accept my apology.

Accepted

Christian Heaven? What is so great about it? Is it not where the power comes from to accomplish something good?

Is it? Is there some Scriptural reference from which to at least see if that might be so?

Justice, freedom, goodness, happy, peace, how are these accomplished? Atheists can accomplish these things...

Theists too...

...but only Heaven knows how to secure them forever.

Source for your claim please?

If there was no antichrists, I suspect Heaven would be very near to accomplishing Peace. To be a part of the solution (heavenly) instead of being a part of the problem is mighty satisfactory I think. The great thing about heaven is owning the satisfaction that my soul has accomplished something good. To me heaven is real, so the accomplishment I can/will/do experience is also witnessed by others who share in real accomplishment for peace and life. But not in THIS life.

Ok…again… all I ask is that you source your understanding of support of your claim as to be found directly from The Bible? Is that unreasonable, or non-existent?

Please, I'd like to show You something.

If in case people read my posts, which I doubt, I want to explain why a person needs Heaven's direction to meet accomplishment. Reading my last sentence "but not in this life" I have to realize it can mean many different things to every reader.

I didn't write it to mean many things.

It might read "good can't be accomplished in this life". That is what I think the Jehovah's Witnesses teach. Present life, not Earth vs spirit life.

It might read "the writer of the posts believes the feeling of accomplishment cannot be realized in this life". That's just sad. And not what I wrote

What it means is real accomplishment should not be dependent on how other people in this life view me. I have a joke, but I sense I probably shouldn't say it.

At this point, all I would ask of you is to reread my OP, and effort some or any attempt to actually address the questions and observations put forward there, or provide C&V (Chapter and Verse) support for any counter-claims you wish to substantiate as being Scripturally derived.

That’s all

It’s really not a trick question you know, nor an unreasonable one for an unbeliever to inquire of a believer to answer earnestly, honestly, and with their provided foundational support as stated within the tenants and religious texts of their own professed faith-belief. Is that an unfair burden to meet as provision of such an extraordinary claim to any claim of an eternal realm of everlasting and unremitting joy, peace, love, and pretty housing with paved streets?

Does it really boil down to nothing more that “Trust me, you’ll love it?”. If I got that line from a travel agent booking me to a destination I’ve never seen, with no available photos, or provided anecdotal testimonies of others that have been there, or even a brochure that details whether or not double beds are available in the hotel room… what sort of absolute trust would you place in that travel agent (with the attendant caveats that you must love and and obey the owner of that hotel without question, forego everything you hold dear, and accept every and anything the owner of that destination tells you as absolute truth)?

So, I’m listening

 

[-Peacemaker-]

This is the biblical Christian Heaven. I don't know if it's been posted already. I'm not looking through 30 pages to find out. It's definately not for everybody (see verses 7-8 of ch.21. The good news is that man gets to co-reign with God over creation. (see verse 6.) ch 22



Revelation 21

21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
The New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[c] in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits[d] thick.[e] 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.[f] 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Revelation 22

Eden Restored

22 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

 

[savagewind]

"Our Father IN HEAVEN let YOU"RE will be done". Matthew 6:9,10 "God is love". 1 John 4:8 Love is desirable Psalm 145:7-9 and good. Luke 18:19 It is accomplished from Heaven. Psalm 143:8-10

For the "power to accomplish something good".

Isaiah 9:7 for heaven knows how to secure them forever.
Happy Matthew 5:1-11
Justice Proverbs 21:15
Freedom John 8:32
Goodness Micah 4:4
Peace Isaiah 9:6,7

Isaiah 55:1,2 for "satisfaction"

And why do I not seek mankind's approval? "What it means is real accomplishment should not be dependent on how other people in this life view me."
Luke 12:32
"Do not be afraid little flock for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom".

The joke was no one views me at all. haha

 

[tennisman5]

How ya doin? I'm new to this forum. Not sure if I want to spend time doing it, but as I scanned topics this one caught my attention. Your thoughts on it were really good and well thought out, something Christians would do well to practice. I've worked on this topic for a while, and would share a few thoughts if interested. So to start slow, our assumption (for the sake of this discussion) would have be that there is a heaven and that there is a God involved with it somehow. I assume this would be our starting point since if there is no God or heaven in our consideration this topic is moot. I'm not saying we have to believe in them, just to lay the beginning foundation.

 

[Thief]

How ya doin? I'm new to this forum. Not sure if I want to spend time doing it, but as I scanned topics this one caught my attention. Your thoughts on it were really good and well thought out, something Christians would do well to practice. I've worked on this topic for a while, and would share a few thoughts if interested. So to start slow, our assumption (for the sake of this discussion) would have be that there is a heaven and that there is a God involved with it somehow. I assume this would be our starting point since if there is no God or heaven in our consideration this topic is moot. I'm not saying we have to believe in them, just to lay the beginning foundation.

Yep....without Someone in charge, we stand up from the dust...into chaos.

More than 6billion people will die in my lifetime.
That's a lot of confusion, without resolve.

So if there is a heaven....The Almighty will be on His throne.

 

[no-body]

As Alan Watts said the Christian heaven sounds as dreadful as the Christian hell. Why would a God model his "kingdom" on human notions? Perhaps that was as close as the Christian authors could get to interpreting the divine, which is why all religions must be taken with a bag of salt.

 

[Thief]

As Alan Watts said the Christian heaven sounds as dreadful as the Christian hell. Why would a God model his "kingdom" on human notions? Perhaps that was as close as the Christian authors could get to interpreting the divine, which is why all religions must be taken with a bag of salt.

And you would prefer a scheme of things to which you cannot relate at all?
Cross over into the next life and into something has nothing for you?

Kingdom...might well be a 'territory' that many people live in together.
Without such notion...are you prepared for eternal isolation?

You can't get out of your body now.
What makes you think you will when you die?

Eternal darkness is physically real.
No form of light follows anyone into the grave.

 

[no-body]

And you would prefer a scheme of things to which you cannot relate at all?
Cross over into the next life and into something has nothing for you?

Kingdom...might well be a 'territory' that many people live in together.
Without such notion...are you prepared for eternal isolation?

You can't get out of your body now.
What makes you think you will when you die?

Eternal darkness is physically real.
No form of light follows anyone into the grave.

Why would God single out a specific period of time and culture to teach his eternal truths? If Gods teachings really came from God they would be instantly accessible to all times and places and I mean for real not some corny mantra about your religious book being universal to all because it is the greatest story ever told.

It makes more sense that there are truths of God scattered everywhere for the individual to discover. If the deficit is me well God made me so it is still his fault. He is supposed to be the superior being after all.

 

[Thief]

Why would God single out a specific period of time and culture to teach his eternal truths? If Gods teachings really came from God they would be instantly accessible to all times and places and I mean for real not some corny mantra about your religious book being universal to all because it is the greatest story ever told.

It makes more sense that there are truths of God scattered everywhere for the individual to discover. If the deficit is me well God made me so it is still his fault. He is supposed to be the superior being after all.

Not my greatest story ever told.
In fact....if you've been following my post work....
I'm a rogue theologian. Check my banner.

God's teachings are everywhere...always have been.
It seems however some people need it spelled out for them.

But scripture is intended as preservation.
Prophets don't live forever, and generations could pass by.
If the men of God fail to write some things down it all becomes word of mouth...generation to generation.
That can be haphazard.

So we all end up quoting scripture.
I do so sparingly.

As you for you being less than God.....of course you are.
Having to discover what to hold true, and what to let go...
is the cause that you are here in this life.

This linear existence...one lesson at a time....
makes you unique....and therefore of possible interest.

 

[s2a]

I suspect in Heaven you'll be able to create whatever reality you want. Create Hell create anything you can dream up. You can get lost in your creation for a few billion years if you want, until you get tired of it. You set up the game, you set up the rules. You can sit back and watch Bill Maher or you can make him dance. Your reality would be up to you.

Hi Nakosis

As you hint to be "eclectic" in an self-espoused religion, I'll treat with you as an "eclectic" and detached witness on the stand in lent testimony as an informed/credible apologist regarding any support of a "Christian Heaven"

Please note, without particular highlights (since the thead OP directly references a "Christian Heaven", not an obscure or "eclectic" notion of any imagined "heaven"), that your response would be deemed as far beyond most Christian adherent's concepts or claimed realities of "Heaven"

Whatever religion or faith-based concepts you imagine may encompass/entail/evince your particular artistic paintings and sculptures of a ..."select from the following options menu" interpretation/explanation...will no doubt be of interest to some contributors here. and may inspire you to instigate a thread of your own promoting that perspective...but let's all try to operate within the lent parameters of the OP within this thread for now, shall we?

Preach/teach/sell/infomercial your own religion in another thread please. Thank you

 

[s2a]

This is the biblical Christian Heaven. I don't know if it's been posted already. I'm not looking through 30 pages to find out.

You know…all you really need offer is your reply to the OP, not the 29 1/2 pages that follow…

Just saying

I appreciate you cutting and pasting Rev 21 and 22 here, for all to appreciate and reread again (certainly no Christians that might offer supported reply may have read that C&V beforehand…)


That’s all very pretty poetry and prose… but what does any person of the 21st century draw from that as answer to the basic question put forward in the OP, and the defining inquiry as presented?

C’mon.

Jeweled paths and gates? Really?

Are we to look forward to milk and honey, or golden streets too? Really?

That’s it? Everlasting “light”? Really?

Those are the big selling points of the Christian Heaven? Really?

Tell me there’s something more. Please.

Tell unbelievers across the globe that forgoing everything they understand, believe, accept as fact, and own as convenience/comfort/independence should all be cast aside like a chewed piece of gum to embrace little more than…shiny things that are well lit?

To do what…stare upon twirling pendants in some abject wonder for a hack hypnotist, for trillions upon trillions of years? Even squirrels would bore of that in 20 minutes or so…

Have you nothing more? Really?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

You know…all you really need offer is your reply to the OP, not the 29 1/2 pages that follow…

Just saying

I appreciate you cutting and pasting Rev 21 and 22 here, for all to appreciate and reread again (certainly no Christians that might offer supported reply may have read that C&V beforehand…)


That’s all very pretty poetry and prose… but what does any person of the 21st century draw from that as answer to the basic question put forward in the OP, and the defining inquiry as presented?

C’mon.

Jeweled paths and gates? Really?

Are we to look forward to milk and honey, or golden streets too? Really?

That’s it? Everlasting “light”? Really?

Those are the big selling points of the Christian Heaven? Really?

Tell me there’s something more. Please.

Tell unbelievers across the globe that forgoing everything they understand, believe, accept as fact, and own as convenience/comfort/independence should all be cast aside like a chewed piece of gum to embrace little more than…shiny things that are well lit?

To do what…stare upon twirling pendants in some abject wonder for a hack hypnotist, for trillions upon trillions of years? Even squirrels would bore of that in 20 minutes or so…

Have you nothing more? Really?

If all you got out of it was "golden streets" and "bright lights" I can promise you that you didn't really look it over at at best gave it a passing glance. Come on man. Work with me here. You wanted a conversation with an actual Christian that could actually talk about the biblical Heaven. Give it a more careful look. Really pull out the key points, not how many rubies or emeralds will be here or there. They're not hiding.

 

[waitasec]

If all you got out of it was "golden streets" and "bright lights" I can promise you that you didn't really look it over at at best gave it a passing glance. Come on man. Work with me here. You wanted a conversation with an actual Christian that could actually talk about the biblical Heaven. Give it a more careful look. Really pull out the key points, not how many rubies or emeralds will be here or there. They're not hiding.

seems to me someone was trippin on some good stuff
:drool:

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Live forever. Check.
No suffering forever. Check.
No evil. Check.
Constant and eternal bliss. Check.
Always happy. Check.

I see you do have least a little bit handle on the Christian Heaven. Let's see if we can increase your understanding.

I suppose that’s all believer’s need to know.
As an unbeliever, I request enhancement and detail (that travel brochure), if you please.

Foremost, what does one do...forever? I’m sure Abraham’s bosom is nice and all, but a billion years of that would get a tad tiresome. Beyond being happy to worship and praise the Almighty for trillions of years without end, what kind of job is there to do?
One would think that God had all the maintenance and upkeep of heaven handled. I assume there’s nothing to buy or sell in heaven; no need for schools (what else does an immortal need to learn?), no hospitals (no pain, illness, or injury), no firehouses (Hell might have an opening or two, I suppose), no police stations (no evil, right?); no department stores (who needs clothes, shoes, or sunglasses?). There’s certainly no mention of recreational activities of any kind (No football on weekends? Are there weekends?); no restaurants (milk and honey excepted, is there any need of even consuming food when you’re immortal?); no movie theaters; no churches; no cars; no government; and presumably, no pets allowed.


Is the one occupation to be sitting around and shooting the breeze about how happy and joyous everyone is...forever?

Revelation along with the Garden of Eden are the two best places to get a handle on this subject as Eden in Genesis represented what God had originally intended for creation to be like and Rev makes clear that it is restored. We see both in genesis and Revelation that man was made to co-reign with God over all creation. In Genesis, man's job was to take care of the garden

Genesis 1:27-31 - “27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.
Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground​

Genesis 2:15

"The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it."

Man was created from the start to be a worker and he'll presumably work again if such a Heaven will exist

And what about the interpersonal things?

Assuming a previous ex-wife makes it to heaven along with your current wife, does (or must) everyone share the same house and makeup? What about your ex's hubby/boyfriend?

If you ascend to heaven unmarried, are you allowed to date? Since procreation is no longer an issue, is sex allowed (at least the Muslims have that few dozen vestal virgins thing going for them)? Are cigars permitted? Is XO cognac flowing from some endless source (screw that milk and honey for my money)? Can I get french fries with that Big Mac now that I can’t get fat or die of heart disease (again)? Do ugly people stay ugly in heaven, or do they get a holy "extreme makeover" first? Do babies stay babies, endlessly crying (and doing you know what else), or do they get a “base age” of say, 25, to live out eternity? Does anyone really want to be changing baby diapers for the next trillion years or so?

Jesus was asked a similar question about marriage in Heaven. He says there'll be no marriage. Now we can surmise that you'll probably get to have a woman in Heaven given that one man being with one woman was how creation was originally designed.

Matthew 22

23On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him, 24asking, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘IF A MAN DIES HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP CHILDREN FOR HIS BROTHER.’ 25“Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; 26so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. 27“Last of all, the woman died. 28“In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.”
29But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30“For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31“But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.