Hello DeepShadow,
You said:
"Perhaps the problem is with the original question itself."
Perhaps...perhaps not. I would not presume to suggest that I have never posed a premised question without flaw, or one unworthy of reflective consideration - but at the moment, this isn't one of them.
"After all, scripture is mostly concerned with matters of faith; it's not a science textbook, as has been demonstrated elsewhere on these forums. Scripture mentions heaven having an end of death and sin because those were spiritual concerns, and also because they were different than life here in mortality."
I am well aware that Scripture is primarily concerned with establishing and validating the concept of faith. Part of the "problem" is that believers (the adherent faithful) claim Heaven as unequivocal
fact - beyond mere faith alone.
Heaven is the
goal (in attainment thereof) of
all believers - as the promised reward for a mortal life spent in subservience, worship, and idealistic (dogmatic) devotion to their God. This (Heaven) is not offered as suppositional, hypothetical, or theoretical Scriptural conclusion - but as
veritable fact.
If Heaven is
not "real" (or if Christ's "resurrection" isn't true), then what's the point of faith/belief in a Christian God? If there's no "reward" and no "afterlife", then why would anyone "believe"? Not only that, but if an eternity playing "Pong" is all that's offered, then gaining additional "converts" would be all that much more difficult. You wouldn't presume to entice potential/prospective believers with a promise of trillions of years of non-stop "Pong" playing, nor (hopefully) would you presume to offer any eternal (or final) travel destination from life as a "trust me, you'll love it" proposition.
The simple question/rationale that not ONE believer has even bothered to acknowledge, much less attempt to address or answer is..."Would you send a loved one to a final resting home/place predicated solely upon such a vague and unspecified promise? Sight unseen? Without detail? Without question? Would you
really?".
Would you even buy a refrigerator (or a house, car, or boat) for yourself that way? Would you marry a prospective spouse, sight-unseen, unmet, and utterly unknown...upon such a promise? If not...then can you understand why unbelievers doubt such claims of Heaven? If believers can exercise discretion, discernment, and skepticism regarding
earthly claims that seem "too good to be true"; yet can unquestionably accept Biblical claims of Heaven and profess such as veritable truths - then just
whom is peddling the snake oil, and why? Should we question the salesman of such cure-all remedies, or disparage those that doubt the salesman's claims? Is it a matter of "trust" (or faith); resistant "hardened hearts"; or simple reasonable doubt? If the purchased miraculous snake oil doesn't cure all my ills, is it due to a lack of faith in it's efficacy? Should I blame the salesman, or myself for it's failure?
You tell me.
"Was John supposed to say, 'heaven will have music, and dancing, and sex, and all the things you enjoy here on earth, as well as immortality?'"
I don't know. I can't account for the Scriptural claims offered by John. As far as I know, there was nothing preventing him from providing the specificity you offered (and, btw...other beliefs do offer greater detail).
You said:
"Not to me. If you were telling me about China, I wouldn't expect or want to hear much about how people there are the same. I'd want to hear about the differences, because that's how I would construct a picture in my mind--by contrasts."
OK. But if
I were your travel agent, I'd do my best to answer honestly
any questions you might have regarding your destination - and the laws, government, and culture you might expect to encounter, as well as specific details regarding your accommodations while you were there. Once you
are there, thusly fully informed about what to expect; what to see; where to go; and whom your exploring companions are likely to be...you'd be
more than welcome to partake in the "differences" of the people you might encounter once suitably arrived.
"Thus, scripture might mention so little about life in heaven because it won't be any different from here."
But that's not what Scripture suggests or promises...
"Where does it say that we won't have TV, or music, or sex? Do you have any scriptural evidence that it's not, 'All this and immortality, too?'"
Call it an
inference based upon
available evidence. Is it your position that Heaven
will provide those hedonistic indulgences; or will you not claim so beyond any equiviocation; or do you simply
not know?
If you do know, but won't say, then why the concealment?
If you don't know, and won't simply state as much...I am left but to wonder what would preclude you from saying so...
I said:
>>"Matt. 10:26 - "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known."<<
If
everything is to be disclosed, and
all hidden things are made known, then what is there to learn? What question will God
not provide answer to, if asked? What knowledge will be
needed, if immortality - free of effort, or profit, or pain - provides an eternity of "been there, done that", or "I knew that already"?"
You offered:
"You're assuming that all things are known at once, but that's not how we learn. We all learn at different paces, line upon line, precept upon precept. That process will continue in heaven.
Isaiah 28:10--For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"
Is Isaiah talking about a
mortal existence, or an
immortal one here?
"D&C 130
18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come."
Fair to say that most Christians accept (and espouse) the notion that the "soul" is risen "complete", or "in toto" (as some might jest, your "permanent record" follows you everywhere).
But you
do raise an interesting point suggesting that "smarter", or more "experienced" risen souls will enjoy some sort of
advantage in Heaven. An advantage towards/realizing gain? Of
what benefit,
exactly? How does one "better" an immortal existence devoid of pain, suffering, sin, or evil? Recall,
everyone is promised eternal joy in Paradise.
Everyone. How does one top that?
You address Matt. 10:26 again, saying:
"Also note that this scripture only refers to things that are "concealed" or "hidden." It says nothing about things that are in plain view, but have never been studied--at least by you. You'll have plenty to learn and do."
Perhaps this is simply a matter of semantics, but "
...nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known." seems pretty straightforward to me. The operative word being "
nothing" (withheld). If
something is already "revealed", or "made known" (to you), than it leaves "things" unrevealed and unknown to "discover"...
except...those unknown/unrevealed things
will be made known
too...
[Note: You are unwise to attempt to gauge/qualify what levels or study, or experience garnered, that may be retained by someone you do not know. I offer no assessment of your piety, knowledge, or depth of understanding of your own professed beliefs. As always, such qualities tend to "speak for themselves".]
You revisited my statement of:
.."What about entertainment? Again...no movies. No TV. No Nintendo. No magazines. No newspapers (no news). No competitive sports. All winners. No losers.",,
And challenged me with:
You got C&V to back these up?
I don't claim Heaven as a "real" place. The Bible does. It's not my burden of proof to substantiate/validate Biblical claims. That's
your burden to bear as a faithful believer (and especially as
witness to unbelievers that would like to
know these details
before committing to a complete change of behavior, values, and life-long perspective). Can
you provide C&V that categorically "disproves" my assumptions?
When
I make a claim, you are hereby invited and most welcome to demand support of that claim; and it's left for me to satisfy burdens of (your) reasonable doubt with empirical fact.
s2a
