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So, What Happened, Jesus?
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Lots of contradictions to see.
I could only accommodate three [3] before I get overwhelmed
I really don't like to make this a career.
lukethethird
unknown member
Most biblical scholars are devoted Christians who know what side their bread is buttered on. Appealing to a consensus such as that doesn't amount to much. Besides that, their arguments are tired, especially references to Josephus.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Lame, next!
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Actually, there are many Biblical scholars, and scholars of the history of the east who are not Christians, most reluctantly admit that Christ existed.
You have an idea, therefore you reject any research and conclusions by anyone who disagrees with your idea.
Got it
What you're actually arguing is that the text doesn't say what you want.
Whereas the texts of the bible are simply historical documents, written by various humans at various times and places for various purposes.
So the questions in each case are the same as for any other historical document ─ what, when, where, who, why.
And they're to be answered according to the rules of reasoned enquiry applicable to history, which as you know are assisted by archaeology and the sciences.
And honesty being foremost, as ever, one is careful to avoid imposing one's preconceptions on the document; instead one seeks to understand what its author or authors ─ our fellow humans ─ intended to convey, and why.
So in this case we're looking at the author of Mark and his attribution to Jesus of the following words:
Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
Mark 13:28 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place.
They represent the author of Mark's expectation, shared by the authors of Matthew and of Luke, that Jesus would return in the immediate future, in the lifetime of some of the audience. In other words, GET READY, THE KINGDOM IS AT HAND.Mark 13:28 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place.
That this doesn't happen in history is unsurprising. It may also explain why the author of John doesn't repeat it 20-25 years later.
That some believers might later (and even now) try to invent excuses, to explain away somehow what they perceive as an unacceptable failure, may be understandable, but inventing excuses is not a search for historical truth.
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We agree on this.
If you re-read my post, you will see that I don't place the gathering of the 144,000 only at the end times. These began to be gathered in the first century, but apostasy was foretold and it happened...corrupting Christianity with "weeds" so that the "wheat" were almost choked out of existence for centuries.
Any who opposed "the church" did not live to promote the truth, so as Daniel foretold, at "the time of the end" God was going to "cleanse, whiten and refine" his people by providing them with an abundance of knowledge, not disclosed or fully understood until this time. (Daniel 12:4) Nevertheless, this knowledge was not revealed all at once....it was progressive revelation as Jesus indicated. (Matthew 24:45) They received their "food at the proper time".
Those who wanted to retain the spiritual 'filth' that had overtaken the church, would not be granted insight or understanding. The "wicked" would go on as they always had. (Daniel 12:9-10) This, we believe is Christendom.
I guess this is where we totally disagree. Those who identify as "anointed" have no advantage over any other member of the congregation. Their humility does not allow for exaltation. If anyone claims to be of that group, taking the emblems at our annual Memorial, without authority from God to do so, they will answer to God, not us. Their anointing is not just a vague feeling that they want to go to heaven to be with their Lord, but an inordinate longing to be free of their earthly body and take on the immortality that only a spirit body can experience.....that is promised only to them.
I came to understand the difference between "immortality" and "everlasting life". The desire to live in "paradise" and the desire to live in "heaven". Most have no idea of this difference.
When I first started studying the Bible and found out that we are not all going to heaven, I felt an enormous sense of relief because I did not ever want to go there. I thought there was something wrong with me. My ideal was living in paradise conditions on earth. That is exactly what God has programmed into all of us. We only have to look at all the paradisaic places on earth to see the attraction they have for all those who flock there even for a short vacation.
The anointing of Christ's "brothers" is given to override that natural desire to remain on earth. I was able to see the difference in the desired destiny of both groups and why each has no envy of the other...each gets to go where their heart is. Both end up enjoying the benefits of the Kingdom.
I don't see it that way. I see the choosing of this group as interrupted by the apostasy that Jesus and the apostles foretold....and the emergence of a cleansed people in "the time of the end" who separated into two groups once their identities became clear.
In the earlier decades of the 1900's some were coming to a knowledge of Christ as separate from Christendom, but did not have the desire to go to heaven. These wanted to join the ranks of Jehovah's people, but held back from baptism because they did not feel that they had an anointing for heaven.
At a large convention, they heard a discourse where the difference between "the little flock" and Christ's "other sheep" identified them as subjects of the kingdom, rather than its chosen rulers. Once they understood the reason why they were not anointed for heavenly life, they presented themselves as happy subjects of their anointed Christian brothers.
I understand that if a person has cherished beliefs and conviction concerning them, it is not easy to relinquish them. But, it's not only the teachings, but the conduct and the activity of these people as a whole brotherhood who claim to teach the truth, that is also important. I believe that no other organization on earth fulfills Christ's commission like JW's do. We see the command to "preach the good news of the Kingdom" and to "make disciples of people of all nations" by that means as an obligation, not as something optional. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
Can you name any denomination in Christendom who fulfills that commission on a global scale....who are no part of this world and its conflicts and who are trying their best to live a Christian lifestyle, guided by what has come to be viewed as 'outdated' Bible principles. There may be individuals who try to do that, but they are usually unaffiliated...they have no brotherhood with whom to meet or identify with.
Do you identify with a particular denomination?
This is a great topic if you wish to explore it, I would be happy to do so.
It's not something that can be explained in a simple way or in a short space of time, to do it justice. It takes study and a deep knowledge of the Bible to explain it scripturally....but again, I am willing to discuss it verse by verse if you wish.
Oh cool so your willing to concede that everything in the Bible actually happened as depicted then?
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
Mat13:13 "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."
This genealogical race shall not pass until ALL of these things be fulfilled. Since Iesous holds responsible those who persecute and murder both Him and His sent ones, why are you in a hurry to have it over? Sad as it is, y'all've STILL got AT LEAST another 144k to murder.
It ain't even startin' to be over till...
all grass and third trees,
third ships on third seas
... are gone.
Revelation IS.
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lukethethird
unknown member
Why would there be any reluctance to believe someone of ancient history existed or not? Do you think anyone outside of Christianity gives a hoot either way when it comes to Christians and their savior figure? It appears your bias is showing.
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So if he hasn't come yet, why do these signs have to have come yet, and if it was at his crucifixion time, how do you know that these signs didn't appear?
The bible isn't a history book, though there's some history and some folk history in the Tanakh. And the NT has at least five different Jesuses, none a credible biography (and indeed the only biography is Mark's ─ the others are 'corrections' of Mark). Was Jesus Mark's ordinary Jew adopted by God at his baptism in the manner of Psalm 2:7? Or was he the product of Matthew's and Luke's angelic annunciations, divine insemination (in the Greek tradition), moving stars and trailing magi, 'massacre of the innocents', flights to Egypt and so on? Was he Mark's despairing human dying awfully, or John's cool master of ceremonies on the cross? The resurrection exists in five different versions, each incompatible with the other four in major ways and having in sum the historical credibility of a Green Lantern comic.
Do you really believe in magic? The alteration of reality independently of the rules of physics, usually just by wishing? Really?
That's why I will ignore you now and no longer communicate. You use it as a history book when it confirms your biases and when it contradicts your biases you view it as a fabrication. I wish you well on your journeys.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Then why do you comment on it ? It appears your bias is showing.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
The little flock illustration is simply Christ speaking of others in the world not of this flock ( Jews)We agree on this.
If you re-read my post, you will see that I don't place the gathering of the 144,000 only at the end times. These began to be gathered in the first century, but apostasy was foretold and it happened...corrupting Christianity with "weeds" so that the "wheat" were almost choked out of existence for centuries.
Any who opposed "the church" did not live to promote the truth, so as Daniel foretold, at "the time of the end" God was going to "cleanse, whiten and refine" his people by providing them with an abundance of knowledge, not disclosed or fully understood until this time. (Daniel 12:4) Nevertheless, this knowledge was not revealed all at once....it was progressive revelation as Jesus indicated. (Matthew 24:45) They received their "food at the proper time".
Those who wanted to retain the spiritual 'filth' that had overtaken the church, would not be granted insight or understanding. The "wicked" would go on as they always had. (Daniel 12:9-10) This, we believe is Christendom.
I guess this is where we totally disagree. Those who identify as "anointed" have no advantage over any other member of the congregation. Their humility does not allow for exaltation. If anyone claims to be of that group, taking the emblems at our annual Memorial, without authority from God to do so, they will answer to God, not us. Their anointing is not just a vague feeling that they want to go to heaven to be with their Lord, but an inordinate longing to be free of their earthly body and take on the immortality that only a spirit body can experience.....that is promised only to them.
I came to understand the difference between "immortality" and "everlasting life". The desire to live in "paradise" and the desire to live in "heaven". Most have no idea of this difference.
When I first started studying the Bible and found out that we are not all going to heaven, I felt an enormous sense of relief because I did not ever want to go there. I thought there was something wrong with me. My ideal was living in paradise conditions on earth. That is exactly what God has programmed into all of us. We only have to look at all the paradisaic places on earth to see the attraction they have for all those who flock there even for a short vacation.
The anointing of Christ's "brothers" is given to override that natural desire to remain on earth. I was able to see the difference in the desired destiny of both groups and why each has no envy of the other...each gets to go where their heart is. Both end up enjoying the benefits of the Kingdom.
I don't see it that way. I see the choosing of this group as interrupted by the apostasy that Jesus and the apostles foretold....and the emergence of a cleansed people in "the time of the end" who separated into two groups once their identities became clear.
In the earlier decades of the 1900's some were coming to a knowledge of Christ as separate from Christendom, but did not have the desire to go to heaven. These wanted to join the ranks of Jehovah's people, but held back from baptism because they did not feel that they had an anointing for heaven.
At a large convention, they heard a discourse where the difference between "the little flock" and Christ's "other sheep" identified them as subjects of the kingdom, rather than its chosen rulers. Once they understood the reason why they were not anointed for heavenly life, they presented themselves as happy subjects of their anointed Christian brothers.
I understand that if a person has cherished beliefs and conviction concerning them, it is not easy to relinquish them. But, it's not only the teachings, but the conduct and the activity of these people as a whole brotherhood who claim to teach the truth, that is also important. I believe that no other organization on earth fulfills Christ's commission like JW's do. We see the command to "preach the good news of the Kingdom" and to "make disciples of people of all nations" by that means as an obligation, not as something optional. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
Can you name any denomination in Christendom who fulfills that commission on a global scale....who are no part of this world and its conflicts and who are trying their best to live a Christian lifestyle, guided by what has come to be viewed as 'outdated' Bible principles. There may be individuals who try to do that, but they are usually unaffiliated...they have no brotherhood with whom to meet or identify with.
Do you identify with a particular denomination?
This is a great topic if you wish to explore it, I would be happy to do so.
It's not something that can be explained in a simple way or in a short space of time, to do it justice. It takes study and a deep knowledge of the Bible to explain it scripturally....but again, I am willing to discuss it verse by verse if you wish.
The 144,000 are only spoken of in the book of Revelation, and the role they play in the end.
I was a Seventh Day Adventist for many years, a Bible teacher and ordained Elder. I left that denomination because I came to the conclusion that their theology was wrong.
They meet your criteria for a people doing missionary work in all the world, as well healing the people as well.
You might be interested to know that a few of your doctrines came from the SDAś, the state of the dead being one.
The founder of your denomination, long before it existed, studied with some of the founders of the SDA church.
They have a great emphasis on prophecy and preparing for the end times which are about upon us.
I am now simply a Christian, and attend a non denominational Bible Church.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Popularity doesn't substantiate truthfulness and this had been God's policy ever since.
This is what God revealed to ancient Israel:
Deuteronomy 7:7 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Why did the Lord love and choose you? It was not because you are such a large nation. You had the fewest of all people!
How about Jesus Christ, what does he have to say?
Matthew 7:13-14 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
“You can enter true life only through the narrow gate. The gate to hell is very wide, and there is plenty of room on the road that leads there. Many people go that way. But the gate that opens the way to true life is narrow. And the road that leads there is hard to follow. Only a few people find it.
So the more popular the religion is the dangerous and hellish it becomes.
And as you said it, That's...
We understand that these are spiritual "Israel", not literal Israel who are as lost today as they were when Christ walked the earth. When Jesus said "have no fear little flock because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.” We see "the little flock" as the 144,000 as these are given the Kingdom. The "great crowd" of Revelation 7:13-14 we see as earthly survivors of the great tribulation...these are the earthly subjects of that heavenly Kingdom. (Revelation 21:2-4)
It wasn't just missionary work that Jesus commanded. It was taking the good news to our neighbors, not just to foreigners overseas. We call on people in our own neighborhoods because they need to hear the good news too. Remember Jesus preached exclusively to his own people....they already thought that they worshipped God correctly.....but their teachers were corrupt.....same with Christendom.
We see the refining process in those early days as just that....a process. It began with those who seriously questioned the status quo of Christendom's doctrines....and began filtering what the Bible said as opposed to what the churches were teaching. It led some in one direction and others in another. There can only be one truth however and I have never found another Christian body of people who fulfill the qualifications that Jesus gave, more than JW's. I have no unanswered questions.
Yes, I am aware of some of their beliefs. I used to call on several SDA's where I used to live. We had some nice discussions. The older ones used to lament that their church was full of old people but had nothing much to attract the younger folk. Has that changed? In a world ruled by the devil (not sure you believe in a personal devil) but we see demonic activity on earth today almost rivaling the immorality and violence of Noah's day, as Jesus said. (Matthew 24:37-39) We also believe that these last days are coming to an end very soon.
It must frustrate you if they teach things that don't sit well with you....? How does one have a "non-denominational church"?....do they just agree to disagree. That is a bit like the Uniting Church in Australia.....they will never be "united" because they have three churches that combined to avoid having to close down due to a lack of parishioners. They just don't talk about their differences....