Social Justice and Islam

[kai]

Kai, forgive me if i misunderstood you, but are you suggesting that Islam failed in the social justice arena because Prophet Mohamed didn't abolish slavery when he appeared? Is that what you mean?

Yes i am disappointed that the Quran which is timeless did not outlaw slavery , i do agree however that it attempted to regulate and kind of outlaw slavery slowly, but it seems Muslims didn't follow its lead, and i am puzzled why.

 

[kai]

How is slavery allowed in principle when Islam strictly mandates the rights of a "slave" to secure his freedom at a just price, which is decided by the courts, and then his contract is either partly or fully subsidized by the state.
Because its legitimate for him to be a slave in the first place.
Something isn't clicking because the moment a "slave" has the opportunity to decide to choose freedom, he is no longer a slave. Then why were there any slaves?

Rather it isn't even slavery in the most base sense of the word. Or is a prisoner a "slave"? If I go to a penitentiary by committing an offensive action I don't plead my case of enslavement. So you dont think there were any slaves, those people went willingly?

The system Islam sets up is an alternative to the condition of prisoners of war in the modern sense and much more humane as these people are eventually incorporated into society not detained in a no-mans land and left to rot. Why women and children and not just in war but in slaving

Rather obvious isn't it? The Prophet himself set free all the slaves that fell into his possesion and his household set free more than 30,000 slaves. The Rashidun continued this tradition and there are hundreds of accounts of the Caliphs buying slaves from Kaffirs and then setting them free. Pity it didnt continue

Islam did abolish slavery, we can look to our ideal paradigms for that. What? so Muslims just ignored it?

In fact, what I sense is you trying to shift Islam from its core tenants and then looking at the practices of men who valued the coin above the creed and purposefully stopped their dawah to increase the yield of their slave raids. I am not shifting anything, just asking what happened, why was slavery rife until very recently and all you can offer is the view that it wasn't really slavery at all.

I'm sorry, but you have YET to come up with a convincing argument that Islam not only encouraged slavery, but that it even tolerated it.

The edicts don't tolerate it, the Prophet didn't tolerate it, and his companions didn't tolerate it. If Islam were to tolerate slavery, the entire discussion would be mum on their condition, wouldn't begrudge providing a way out of that enslavement as well as command the Caliphate as its religious duty to spend the income it earns from taxes on buying the contracts of these "slaves".

"providing a way out of that enslavement" "thier condition" why enslavement in the first instance.

If you regulate something set down rules and regulations for it your tolerating it.

 

[kai]

Although Islam is much credited for moderating the age-old institution of slavery, which was also accepted and endorsed by the other monotheistic religions, Christianity and Judaism, and was a well-established custom of the pre-Islamic world, it has never preached the abolition of slavery as a doctrine.
Forough Jahanbaksh, Islam, Democracy and Religious Modernism in Iran, 1953-2000, 2001




The condition of slaves, like that of women, may well have improved with the coming of Islam, but the institution was not abolished, any more than it was under Christianity at this period.
Malise Ruthven, Islam in the World, 2000



How Islam moderated slavery

Islam's approach to slavery added the idea that freedom was the natural state of affairs for human beings and in line with this it limited the opportunities to enslave people, commended the freeing of slaves and regulated the way slaves were treated:

Islam greatly limited those who could be enslaved and under what circumstances (although these restrictions were often evaded)
Islam treated slaves as human beings as well as property
Islam banned the mistreatment of slaves - indeed the tradition repeatedly stresses the importance of treating slaves with kindness and compassion
Islam allowed slaves to achieve their freedom and made freeing slaves a virtuous act
Islam barred Muslims from enslaving other Muslims
But the essential nature of slavery remained the same under Islam, as elsewhere. It involved serious breaches of human rights and however well they were treated, the slaves still had restricted freedom; and, when the law was not obeyed, their lives could be very unpleasant.


The paradox

A poignant paradox of Islamic slavery is that the humanity of the various rules and customs that led to the freeing of slaves created a demand for new slaves that could only be supplied by war, forcing people into slavery or trading slaves.

Muslim slavery continued for centuries

The legality of slavery in Islam, together with the example of the Prophet Muhammad, who himself bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves, may explain why slavery persisted until the 19th century in many places (and later still in some countries). The impetus for the abolition of slavery came largely from colonial powers, although some Muslim thinkers argued strongly for abolition.

BBC - Religions - Islam: Slavery in Islam


It seems to have put down set rules, which i think, if anything, formally legalises it.

 

[England my lionheart]

BBC - Religions - Islam: Slavery in Islam


It seems to have put down set rules, which i think, if anything, formally legalises it.

Exactly,thats why the Bible and Qur'an are IMO unsuitable references for social justice today.

 

[Bismillah]

Because its legitimate for him to be a slave in the first place.

How is he a slave if he has a right to freedom?

Is a prisoner a slave?
What about a prisoner of war?

So you dont think there were any slaves, those people went willingly?

A prisoner goes to prison willingly? What are you talking about!

Why women and children and not just in war but in slaving

Show me where the Prophet enslaved women and children for the purpose of "slave raiding".

Women and children are incorporated into certain houses to provide their physical needs until they are incorporated into society and either marry and establish their own household or stay in that household permanently.

Here is an account of just that example from an Hadith that is framed around the women's brother and his conversion to Islam

The Muslims defeated the tribe of Tai in the battle; and some were made captives. Muslims brought Saffana, the sister of Adi ibn Hatim to Medina along with other captives and related the story of Adi ibn Hatim's escapade to Prophet Mohammed (saw).The prisoners were sheltered in a low walled compound near the Mosque. One day, Prophet Mohammed (saw), while going to the Mosque passed beside the enclosure. Saffana, intelligent and talkative as she was, moved from her place and said: "My father is dead; my guardian is hiding; be generous to me, Allah will be generous to you".
Prophet Mohammed (saw): "Who is your guardian?"
"Adi, son of Hatim"
"The one who has run away from Allah (SWT) and His Prophet Mohammed (saw)?"
Saying these words Prophet Mohammed (saw) went away, Next day again she repeated the same words, heard the same reply. Her plea produced no result. The third day, having lost her hopes, Saffana decided to keep silent. But a young man walking behind Prophet Mohammed (saw) made signs to her to repeat her demand. She repeated the same words. Prophet Mohammed (saw) said, "Very well, I am waiting for some reliable man from your tribe. As soon as such a man is found I shall send you with him to your tribe. Inform me if you find such a person who has come to Medinah".
Saffana asked the people who was the young man walking behind Prophet Mohammed (saw) who had encouraged her to repeat her demand? They said he was Imam Ali (as).
After some time, Saffana informed Prophet Mohammed (saw) that some men of her tribe had come to Medinah. Prophet Mohammed (saw) gave her a new dress, some cash for meeting the expense of the journey and a camel to ride on. She went along with them to her brother, Adi ibn Hatim in Damascus (Syria).


http://www.ezsoftech.com/stories/prophet.mohammed1.asp

Pity it didnt continue

Lots of Islamic practices didn't continue.

What? so Muslims just ignored it?

Ignored it? There is an in depth means towards emancipation, incorporation, and creating a stronger Ummah. Hardly "ignored it".

I am not shifting anything, just asking what happened, why was slavery rife until very recently and all you can offer is the view that it wasn't really slavery at all.

What are you talking about? Again you mix religion with the people? I am quite clearly stating that in Islam, there are no "slaves" rather these people are afforded ways to attain their freedom. Period.

"providing a way out of that enslavement" "thier condition" why enslavement in the first instance.

It's not "enslavement" if there is a way out in the first place. That's a basic definition.

These people are held in bondage, to be sure, but in no ways are they "enslaved" as the very practice of enslavement forgoes all personal liberties.

 

[TashaN]

Yes i am disappointed that the Quran which is timeless did not outlaw slavery , i do agree however that it attempted to regulate and kind of outlaw slavery slowly, but it seems Muslims didn't follow its lead, and i am puzzled why.

Kai, it's mentioned in the Quran, and prophet Mohammed took part of the process of totally abolishing slavery too at his time and all the Muslims after him.

In order for the Quran to be the timeless revelation of God, it needed to be relevant to both, the time of Prophet Mohammed, our time, and so on.

Do you really believe, and with all the complications and social severe challenges at the time of Prophet Mohammed, that he could do it all?

There is something which you really need to know about how Muslims view God, and life in general.

Life to Muslims is a struggle--you might know this part--but what you don't know is that it's a struggle for any human beings whether he was a Muslim or not. Just because we are Muslims that doesn't give us a blank cheque to heaven.

Please read the two verses below "they are in my signature too".

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?

And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah , and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason. (Quran 10:99-100

It was directed at Prophet Mohamed himself and all of Muslims after him. Allah revealed these verses when Prophet Mohammed wished so strongly that all people could believe in Him. Allah showed him that if the purpose of creation was just for all humanity to suddenly be Muslims by sending a Prophet, Allah would have done it right away with one word of him. We could all be just like angels. We could all just live in heaven, not earth and so forth.

Read the last word in my signature, "reason". Allah created us to see how we can get benefit from the mind he gave us. How we will use our reason!!!

There are so many examples to show that it was God's plan, after all, that there would be no slavery at specific point in time. It doesn't matter who abolished slavery because whether they were Muslims or not, it doesn't matter because we are all human beings, we are all of his creation, we are all of Adam.

1. I swear by this city (Makkah);

2. And you are free (from sin, and to punish the enemies of Islâm on the Day of the conquest) in this city (Makkah).

3. And by the begetter (i.e. Adam عليه السلا&#1605 and that which he begot (i.e. his progeny).

4. Verily, We have created man in toil.

5. Does he think that none can overcome him?

6. He says (boastfully): "I have wasted wealth in abundance!"

7. Does he think that none sees him?

8. Have We not made for him two eyes,

9. And a tongue and two lips?

10. And shown him the two ways (good and evil)?

11. But he has not attempted to pass on the path that is steep (i.e. the path which will lead to goodness and success).

12. And what will make you know the path that is steep?

13. (It is) freeing a neck (slave)

14. Or giving food in a day of hunger (famine),

15. To an orphan near of kin.

16. Or to a Miskîn (poor) cleaving to dust (out of misery).

17. Then he became one of those who believed (in the Islamic Monotheism) and recommended one another to perseverance and patience, and (also) recommended one another to pity and compassion.

18. They are those on the Right Hand (i.e. the dwellers of Paradise),

19. But those who disbelieved in Our Ayât (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they are those on the Left Hand (the dwellers of Hell).

20. The Fire will be shut over them (i.e. they will be enveloped by the Fire without any opening or window or outlet. (Quran 90:1-20)

Also in another Surah ...

3. And those who make unlawful to them their wives by Zihâr and wish to free themselves from what they uttered, (the penalty) in that case is the freeing of a slave before they touch each other. That is an admonition to you (so that you may not repeat such an ill thing). And Allâh is All-Aware of what you do. (Quran 58:3)

And ...

89. Allâh will not punish you for what is unintentional in your oaths, but He will punish you for your deliberate oaths; for its expiation feed ten Masâkîn (poor persons), on a scale of the average of that with which you feed your own families, or clothe them or manumit a slave. But whosoever cannot afford (that), then he should fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths when you have sworn. And protect your oaths (i.e. do not swear much). Thus Allâh make clear to you His Ayât (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) that you may be grateful. (Quran 5:89)

There are tons of hadiths where Prophet Mohammed have stated the importance of freeing slaves, not to mention the hundereds and maybe thousands of slaves who been freed during the life of Prophet Mohammed and after he passed away at the hand of the Muslims who were buying slaves from the market and setting them free. The most close disciples of Prophet Mohammed didn't have to read the above verses to free the slaves because they were the best example of Muslims who sacrificed their lives, money, and everything they posses to serve Islam and humanity. They would spend all their fortune to free slaves and feed the poor amongst other things. Then these verses came to stress this concept of freeing slaves even more, but attaching slavery to all kinds of virtues, and even by linking it as a way to redemption.

Was Mohammed able to abolish slavery at that time once and for all? yes.

Were humanity ready for it at that time? that's a big no.

There is a hadith of Prophet Mohammed "in the meaning of it" mentioning to one of his wives that if people at this time "Prophet Mohammed's time" weren't so new to Islam, he would have opened a new door at one of the sides of Ka'aba. He was afraid from their reaction because they just knew what is Islam, and just few months and years a go they were non-Muslims.

Kai, sometimes i get frustrated at some of the threads i see in RF because people don't read. Mohammed came 1400 years a go but people are so careless and so lazy that they don't want to read about the beginning of Islam and it's progression during all this period. How can a sane person ignore a civilization which been there for centuries and then shamelessly point fingers at it in the way so many people do here?

Is it because it's called "Islam"? I know people who spent their whole life to study a specific type of animals, plants, race, a culture, etc. How about an entire civilization which was scattered all around the world starting from Asia and finishing with Europe and beyond.

I can't imagine how could people so easily condemn something they have not read about in depth? how could they dare to insult it and misjudge it?

I appreciate at least those who don't have much time to study the history of Islam, but are brave enough to asks and then listen before throwing accusations at our faces.

so many times i see tons of lies and misunderstandings about Islam but i don't have the time to respond to all of it so i'm just trying my best to find some good threads and participate as much as my time allow me to do so. add to that i see myself as unfit to to this mission for not having a deep knowledge about Islam. I just try my best from the so little i know about Islam. I myself am trying to learn more about my religion everyday, and i still feel lost in the ocean of Islam.

There are so many things which i want to say and explain but that would require from me to write an entire book about it or at least a decent article because the words i have threw here are nothing compared to all what i want to say about this big topic.

What people don't know is that so many if not most of the early Muslims who stood in the side of Prophet Mohammed were nothing but either slaves or poor people because they believed it could set them free, and it certainly did. Heck, the sole reason mentioned by the non-Muslims brethren of Prophet Mohammed to not follow Islam was because all of his followers were just a bunsh of slaves who felt the justice of Islam.

and going back to the issue of why Muslims couldn't totally abolish slavery till recently, the answer is that they were at the bottom of civilizations--and they still are?--compared to their glorious past, and according to Allah's laws on earth, only those who deserve to be the best, those who really think and work will deserve to lead humanity no matter what religion they have. That's the law of Allah on earth, but will it be as great? as just?

cont. below ....

 

[TashaN]

Let me leave you with a little observation by Malcom X. Although he was a controversial personality, but i don't know doubt his honesty whether people liked him or not.

“Never have I witnessed such sincere hospitality and overwhelming spirit of true brotherhood as is practiced by people of all colors and races here in this ancient Holy Land, the home of Abraham, Muhammad and all the other Prophets of the Holy Scriptures. For the past week, I have been utterly speechless and spellbound by the graciousness I see displayed all around me by people of all colors. “I have been blessed to visit the Holy City of Mecca, I have made my seven circuits around the Ka’ba, led by a young Mutawaf named Muhammad, I drank water from the well of the Zam Zam. I ran seven times back and forth between the hills of Mt. Al-Safa and Al Marwah. I have prayed in the ancient city of Mina, and I have prayed on Mt. Arafat.

“There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blondes to black-skinned Africans. But we were all participating in the same ritual, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and non-white.

“America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered white - but the white attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam.

I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color. “You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to rearrange much of my thought-patterns previously held, and to toss aside some of my previous conclusions. This was not too difficult for me. Despite my firm convictions, I have always been a man who tries to face facts, and to accept the reality of life as new experience and new knowledge unfolds it. I have always kept an open mind, which is necessary to the flexibility that must go hand in hand with every form of intelligent search for truth. “During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass, and slept on the same rug - while praying to the same God - with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the deeds of the white Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan and Ghana.

“We were truly all the same (brothers) - because their belief in one God had removed the white from their minds, the white from their behavior, and the white from their attitude. “I could see from this, that perhaps if white Americans could accept the Oneness of God, then perhaps, too, they could accept in reality the Oneness of Man - and cease to measure, and hinder, and harm others in terms of their ‘differences’ in color. “With racism plaguing America like an incurable cancer, the so-called ‘Christian’ white American heart should be more receptive to a proven solution to such a destructive problem. Perhaps it could be in time to save America from imminent disaster - the same destruction brought upon Germany by racism that eventually destroyed the Germans themselves. “Each hour here in the Holy Land enables me to have greater spiritual insights into what is happening in America between black and white. The American Negro never can be blamed for his racial animosities - he is only reacting to four hundred years of the conscious racism of the American whites. But as racism leads America up the suicide path, I do believe, from the experiences that I have had with them, that the whites of the younger generation, in the colleges and universities, will see the handwriting on the walls and many of them will turn to the spiritual path of truth - the only way left to America to ward off the disaster that racism inevitably must lead to. “Never have I been so highly honored. Never have I been made to feel more humble and unworthy. Who would believe the blessings that have been heaped upon an American Negro? A few nights ago, a man who would be called in America a white man, a United Nations diplomat, an ambassador, a companion of kings, gave me his hotel suite, his bed. Never would I have even thought of dreaming that I would ever be a recipient of such honors - honors that in America would be bestowed upon a King - not a Negro. “All

praise is due to God, the Lord of all the Worlds.”

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/471/

​

The Quran trigger the mind to think and reason, and it gave us the choice to take initiatives to develop, progress, and prosper, not to wait for a ready formula or a rainbow bridge to take us to total unreasltic perfection. If we didn't think and work hard, neither Islam nor the Quran itself will benefit us. That's the challenge. The Quran just gave us guidelines to walk through not to stumble into darkness without knowing. So the Quran is not fixed, and it's timeless, and even what you believe to be a proof for you is actually against you because the greatness of the words of God doesn't stem from mere words we read where we can point at it and say see, here is God did this and here did that. God doesn't need to prove anything to you, me or anyone else. He has implemented in the Quran the visiona dn the light which we have to use in our life, not a mere manual which says do this and leave that, full stop.

Guys, you all have to admit that slavery still exist in the heart of people in the so called civilized world. Although government have fought for it by a rifle "not a sword this time" in the US for instance, but they couldn't remove it from their heart. Only a true and very genuine faith in equality can blossom, but not a superficial one described in papers. Look at how many years America and many other parts of the world had to go through till they could abolish slavery from their law, but they couldn't abolish it from the hearts entirely as Islam could do so. There is no point in bragging about freedom when the hearts see something different than what eyes see.

Sorry for my long posts, i just had to make a case for what i believe in to the best of my abilities, and sorry for any shortcoming or mistakes i might have said or done without my awareness.


Peace and blessings,
Tashan
​

 

[Peace]

Kai, it's mentioned in the Quran, and prophet Mohammed took part of the process of totally abolishing slavery too at his time and all the Muslims after him.

In order for the Quran to be the timeless revelation of God, it needed to be relevant to both, the time of Prophet Mohammed, our time, and so on.

Do you really believe, and with all the complications and social severe challenges at the time of Prophet Mohammed, that he could do it all?

There is something which you really need to know about how Muslims view God, and life in general.

Life to Muslims is a struggle--you might know this part--but what you don't know is that it's a struggle for any human beings whether he was a Muslim or not. Just because we are Muslims that doesn't give us a blank cheque to heaven.

Please read the two verses below "they are in my signature too".

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?

And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah , and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason. (Quran 10:99-100

It was directed at Prophet Mohamed himself and all of Muslims after him. Allah revealed these verses when Prophet Mohammed wished so strongly that all people could believe in Him. Allah showed him that if the purpose of creation was just for all humanity to suddenly be Muslims by sending a Prophet, Allah would have done it right away with one word of him. We could all be just like angels. We could all just live in heaven, not earth and so forth.

Read the last word in my signature, "reason". Allah created us to see how we can get benefit from the mind he gave us. How we will use our reason!!!

There are so many examples to show that it was God's plan, after all, that there would be no slavery at specific point in time. It doesn't matter who abolished slavery because whether they were Muslims or not, it doesn't matter because we are all human beings, we are all of his creation, we are all of Adam.

1. I swear by this city (Makkah);

2. And you are free (from sin, and to punish the enemies of Islâm on the Day of the conquest) in this city (Makkah).

3. And by the begetter (i.e. Adam عليه السلا&#1605 and that which he begot (i.e. his progeny).

4. Verily, We have created man in toil.

5. Does he think that none can overcome him?

6. He says (boastfully): "I have wasted wealth in abundance!"

7. Does he think that none sees him?

8. Have We not made for him two eyes,

9. And a tongue and two lips?

10. And shown him the two ways (good and evil)?

11. But he has not attempted to pass on the path that is steep (i.e. the path which will lead to goodness and success).

12. And what will make you know the path that is steep?

13. (It is) freeing a neck (slave)

14. Or giving food in a day of hunger (famine),

15. To an orphan near of kin.

16. Or to a Miskîn (poor) cleaving to dust (out of misery).

17. Then he became one of those who believed (in the Islamic Monotheism) and recommended one another to perseverance and patience, and (also) recommended one another to pity and compassion.

18. They are those on the Right Hand (i.e. the dwellers of Paradise),

19. But those who disbelieved in Our Ayât (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they are those on the Left Hand (the dwellers of Hell).

20. The Fire will be shut over them (i.e. they will be enveloped by the Fire without any opening or window or outlet. (Quran 90:1-20)

Also in another Surah ...

3. And those who make unlawful to them their wives by Zihâr and wish to free themselves from what they uttered, (the penalty) in that case is the freeing of a slave before they touch each other. That is an admonition to you (so that you may not repeat such an ill thing). And Allâh is All-Aware of what you do. (Quran 58:3)

And ...

89. Allâh will not punish you for what is unintentional in your oaths, but He will punish you for your deliberate oaths; for its expiation feed ten Masâkîn (poor persons), on a scale of the average of that with which you feed your own families, or clothe them or manumit a slave. But whosoever cannot afford (that), then he should fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths when you have sworn. And protect your oaths (i.e. do not swear much). Thus Allâh make clear to you His Ayât (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) that you may be grateful. (Quran 5:89)

There are tons of hadiths where Prophet Mohammed have stated the importance of freeing slaves, not to mention the hundereds and maybe thousands of slaves who been freed during the life of Prophet Mohammed and after he passed away at the hand of the Muslims who were buying slaves from the market and setting them free. The most close disciples of Prophet Mohammed didn't have to read the above verses to free the slaves because they were the best example of Muslims who sacrificed their lives, money, and everything they posses to serve Islam and humanity. They would spend all their fortune to free slaves and feed the poor amongst other things. Then these verses came to stress this concept of freeing slaves even more, but attaching slavery to all kinds of virtues, and even by linking it as a way to redemption.

Was Mohammed able to abolish slavery at that time once and for all? yes.

Were humanity ready for it at that time? that's a big no.

There is a hadith of Prophet Mohammed "in the meaning of it" mentioning to one of his wives that if people at this time "Prophet Mohammed's time" weren't so new to Islam, he would have opened a new door at one of the sides of Ka'aba. He was afraid from their reaction because they just knew what is Islam, and just few months and years a go they were non-Muslims.

Kai, sometimes i get frustrated at some of the threads i see in RF because people don't read. Mohammed came 1400 years a go but people are so careless and so lazy that they don't want to read about the beginning of Islam and it's progression during all this period. How can a sane person ignore a civilization which been there for centuries and then shamelessly point fingers at it in the way so many people do here?

Is it because it's called "Islam"? I know people who spent their whole life to study a specific type of animals, plants, race, a culture, etc. How about an entire civilization which was scattered all around the world starting from Asia and finishing with Europe and beyond.

I can't imagine how could people so easily condemn something they have not read about in depth? how could they dare to insult it and misjudge it?

I appreciate at least those who don't have much time to study the history of Islam, but are brave enough to asks and then listen before throwing accusations at our faces.

so many times i see tons of lies and misunderstandings about Islam but i don't have the time to respond to all of it so i'm just trying my best to find some good threads and participate as much as my time allow me to do so. add to that i see myself as unfit to to this mission for not having a deep knowledge about Islam. I just try my best from the so little i know about Islam. I myself am trying to learn more about my religion everyday, and i still feel lost in the ocean of Islam.

There are so many things which i want to say and explain but that would require from me to write an entire book about it or at least a decent article because the words i have threw here are nothing compared to all what i want to say about this big topic.

What people don't know is that so many if not most of the early Muslims who stood in the side of Prophet Mohammed were nothing but either slaves or poor people because they believed it could set them free, and it certainly did. Heck, the sole reason mentioned by the non-Muslims brethren of Prophet Mohammed to not follow Islam was because all of his followers were just a bunsh of slaves who felt the justice of Islam.

and going back to the issue of why Muslims couldn't totally abolish slavery till recently, the answer is that they were at the bottom of civilizations--and they still are?--compared to their glorious past, and according to Allah's laws on earth, only those who deserve to be the best, those who really think and work will deserve to lead humanity no matter what religion they have. That's the law of Allah on earth, but will it be as great? as just?
cont. below ....

:clap Great post indeed brother!! May Allah bless you!
You owe me frubals for this

 

[gnostic]

Did not Muhammad allow Muslims to sell women and children into slavery, after the siege of Medina and the beheading of all male adults (except those who converted to Islam) of the Banu Qurayza?

Muhammad was hardly the savior of slaves. Sorry, but I don't buy he attempt a revolution to abolish slaves.

And even Muhammad may have freed some slaves that he may have owned, this is hardly earth-shattering news. Many Roman nobles have been known to free slaves and some of these freed-men had gain high positions in the Roman world.

 

[England my lionheart]

Did not Muhammad allow Muslims to sell women and children into slavery, after the siege of Medina and the beheading of all male adults (except those who converted to Islam) of the Banu Qurayza?

Muhammad was hardly the savior of slaves. Sorry, but I don't buy he attempt a revolution to abolish slaves.

Well it wasn't very succesful if he did

And even Muhammad may have freed some slaves that he may have owned, this is hardly earth-shattering news. Many Roman nobles have been known to free slaves and some of these freed-men had gain high positions in the Roman world.

Absolutely,no big deal here,i think though the Qur'an was satisfactory for its time for social justice but when its applied in these changing times it conflicts with things like Homosexuality and Slavery to name just two,add to this the ahadith and its problem city IMO.

 

[kai]

How is he a slave if he has a right to freedom? he had a right to freedom when he was born and in his own country.

Is a prisoner a slave?
What about a prisoner of war?

A prisoner goes to prison willingly? What are you talking about!

Are you trying to say they all went willingly?

Show me where the Prophet enslaved women and children for the purpose of "slave raiding". I can show you hundreds of examples of Muslims taking women and children from Europe and Africa and transporting them to Islamic countries , why didn't they follow the prophets example is what i am asking?

Women and children are incorporated into certain houses to provide their physical needs until they are incorporated into society and either marry and establish their own household or stay in that household permanently. slaves in Muslim society were in some ways better off free poor men, once they were there but the process of acquisition and transportation beggars belief, lets call it what it was Abduction, in fact I think they would prefer to stay in their own country dont you?

Here is an account of just that example from an Hadith that is framed around the women's brother and his conversion to Islam

The Muslims defeated the tribe of Tai in the battle; and some were made captives. Muslims brought Saffana, the sister of Adi ibn Hatim to Medina along with other captives and related the story of Adi ibn Hatim's escapade to Prophet Mohammed (saw).The prisoners were sheltered in a low walled compound near the Mosque. One day, Prophet Mohammed (saw), while going to the Mosque passed beside the enclosure. Saffana, intelligent and talkative as she was, moved from her place and said: "My father is dead; my guardian is hiding; be generous to me, Allah will be generous to you".
Prophet Mohammed (saw): "Who is your guardian?"
"Adi, son of Hatim"
"The one who has run away from Allah (SWT) and His Prophet Mohammed (saw)?"
Saying these words Prophet Mohammed (saw) went away, Next day again she repeated the same words, heard the same reply. Her plea produced no result. The third day, having lost her hopes, Saffana decided to keep silent. But a young man walking behind Prophet Mohammed (saw) made signs to her to repeat her demand. She repeated the same words. Prophet Mohammed (saw) said, "Very well, I am waiting for some reliable man from your tribe. As soon as such a man is found I shall send you with him to your tribe. Inform me if you find such a person who has come to Medinah".
Saffana asked the people who was the young man walking behind Prophet Mohammed (saw) who had encouraged her to repeat her demand? They said he was Imam Ali (as).
After some time, Saffana informed Prophet Mohammed (saw) that some men of her tribe had come to Medinah. Prophet Mohammed (saw) gave her a new dress, some cash for meeting the expense of the journey and a camel to ride on. She went along with them to her brother, Adi ibn Hatim in Damascus (Syria).

Very good but not the norm


Prophet Mohammed (saw) and Forbearance, Kindness and forgiveness, Umar ibn al-Khattab, Adi, son of Hatim (Adi ibn Hatim), Embraced Islam

Lots of Islamic practices didn't continue.

Ignored it? There is an in depth means towards emancipation, incorporation, and creating a stronger Ummah. Hardly "ignored it".

What are you talking about? Again you mix religion with the people? I am quite clearly stating that in Islam, there are no "slaves" rather these people are afforded ways to attain their freedom. Period.


I think you have shown that to some muslims there never were any slaves , i wonder after 500 years, even 1000 years of Islam were there any left to free?

It's not "enslavement" if there is a way out in the first place. That's a basic definition.

Thats a cop out, tell me why they needed a way out in the first place , a way out of what?

These people are held in bondage, to be sure, but in no ways are they "enslaved" as the very practice of enslavement forgoes all personal liberties.

And you think they would have taken comfort in your definition , the fact that they wernt really enslaved.

 

[kai]

Tashan i would like to thank you for going to so much trouble to post such an informative post i am almost embarrassed to bring this up but:

and going back to the issue of why Muslims couldn't totally abolish slavery till recently, the answer is that they were at the bottom of civilizations--and they still are?

Are you forgetting the hundreds and hundreds of years when the Muslims were at the very top of the tree of civilizations.

 

[Marble]

When Quran is the word of God, it needs to state the truth, uncompromising, scrupulous.
If humans follow the word of God is another thing.
But when the words come from God there can be no compromising in them with regard to anything.

 

[kai]

OK i get it that Islam was an innovation giving slaves rights and regulating slavery . It was beneficial for a Muslim to free a slave but is wasn't a requirement, neither was it forbidden to get another one .

In my view although it was groundbreaking it wasnt abolition it was regulation. In effect it was religion regulating slavery.

Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war can become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim; therefore slavery is theoretically doomed to disappear with the expansion of Islam, the idea was to gradually fade it out it, as all free men became Muslim i suppose, the fact is it increased. As the Muslim Empires grew new access to unbelievers opened up in Europe and Africa


It was only pressure from western nations that finally coerced "Islamic" nations into outlawing slavery and even then in the Arabian peninsular it wasn't done until the 1960s-70s.
But thats the way of the world Slavery has been part of the human experience since prehistory and we all have skeletons in the cupboard.

I recognize that there is of course an enormous gulf between the theory and practice of Muslim slavery. Apologists though take refuge in the theory but the theory dosent reflect the facts and the facts about Muslim slavery are horrible.

But what really gets my goat is when people justify it by suggesting it was OK because it was different than the Atlantic Slave trade, or that they weren't really slaves and it didnt exist at all.


come on just bite the bullet.



The Role of Islam in African Slavery -- Part 1 Obtaining slaves on the African continent

 

[TashaN]

Did not Muhammad allow Muslims to sell women and children into slavery, after the siege of Medina and the beheading of all male adults (except those who converted to Islam) of the Banu Qurayza?

Muhammad was hardly the savior of slaves. Sorry, but I don't buy he attempt a revolution to abolish slaves.

And even Muhammad may have freed some slaves that he may have owned, this is hardly earth-shattering news. Many Roman nobles have been known to free slaves and some of these freed-men had gain high positions in the Roman world.

Mohamed was a hero in the eyes of slaves at that time, and as i explained before, it wasn't suitable at that time to abolish slavery as a whole.

Absolutely,no big deal here,i think though the Qur'an was satisfactory for its time for social justice but when its applied in these changing times it conflicts with things like Homosexuality and Slavery to name just two,add to this the ahadith and its problem city IMO.

I disagree.

Tashan i would like to thank you for going to so much trouble to post such an informative post i am almost embarrassed to bring this up but:

Are you forgetting the hundreds and hundreds of years when the Muslims were at the very top of the tree of civilizations.

Don't mention it kai, i always welcome and value genuine discussions.

I agree that Muslims were at the very top for hundreds of years, but you are discrediting the progress done by humanity as a whole. The Quran doesn't stress that Muslims are superior just for being Muslims but for doing what is best for everybody around them. Quran speaks to the entire humanity, and don't forget that as Muslims we believe that Allah has revealed previous revelations to Jews, Christians, etc, and have sent Prophets to all nations without exception, so his guidance is not just to Muslims but to humanity as a whole.

That's why the topic is not "Social Justice in Islamic Societies" but just "Social Justice and Islam".

I really like the relative social justice you have in the many parts of the Western world which Muslims themselves acknowledge and are impressed with. That's why it was natural for many Muslims--even the religious ones--to live in these progressive just societies. I already mentioned before to you that in Islam, we would prefer to live under a just non-Muslim ruler instead of a non-just Muslim ruler.

Thus, in this topic we are not discussing what Muslims COULD or COULD NOT achieve but what ISLAM itself is capable of achieving in principle.

 

[England my lionheart]

I disagree.

So Homosexuality is acceptable then in Islams social justice?

 

[TashaN]

I disagree.

So Homosexuality is acceptable then in Islams social justice?

Islam doesn't punish people because they can't help but to be in a certain way. In general, what applies to non-legal heterosexual (premarital sex, adultery, etc) also applies to homosexual acts.

We don't have a double standard as how many Western countries have where they claim to be secular having no problem with premarital sex for instance but don't tolerate homosexual acts.

This is what i call justice.

 

[Marble]

Mohamed was a hero in the eyes of slaves at that time, and as i explained before, it wasn't suitable at that time to abolish slavery as a whole.

Since when is prophethood concerned about what is suitable?
A prophet has do deliver the word of God, nothing else, and I do not believe that God cares about what is suitable in the eyes of people - truth is truth.

 

[TashaN]

Since when is prophethood concerned about what is suitable?
A prophet has do deliver the word of God, nothing else, and I do not believe that God cares about what is suitable in the eyes of people - truth is truth.

I'll partially agree with you. In the past, God was giving such orders. For instance, there are stories in the Quran where God have punished people simply for not following what their Prophet said.

On the other hand, in the time of Prophet Mohamed, humanity have had reached to a level where they had more options or let's say, were more ready for a more developed type of final revelation, and the gradual delivering of the message was essential to its success.

The Quran was revealed through a period of more than 20 years. Why didn't God send the Quran all at once and order Mohamed to say this is from God, do what it says or he will punish you on the spot!!!

If we, human beings have the ability to think and reason and find what is suitable for ourselves and others, how about the one who created our mind which allow us to reason on the first place?

 

[England my lionheart]

Islam doesn't punish people because they can't help but to be in a certain way. In general, what applies to non-legal heterosexual (premarital sex, adultery, etc) also applies to homosexual acts.

But Homosexuals are considered an abomination,this is what the Scolar says

We don't have a double standard as how many Western countries have where they claim to be secular having no problem with premarital sex for instance but don't tolerate homosexual acts.

This is what i call justice.

Homosexuals treated the same as Hetersexual here except by religion,luckily we don't rely on religion to make important decisions