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Social Justice and Islam

kai

ragamuffin
Strawman.

The Zanj rebellion was not a surprise given the brutal treatment meted out on those saltpans. However, in contrast with the Triangular Trade these institutions were hardly prevalent. Sadly, the same could not be said for the New World where the slave was the necessary economic driving force for cash crops, as the locals made bad slaves Africans were enslaved and shipped.

As I've stated previously the male to female ratio heavily tips into the female's favor and the Arab slave trade heavily focused on concubinage. It wasn't until the 18th century and the destruction of the Swahilli by Portuguese explorers and conquering of Mozambique did the slave trade pick up in number of humans trafficked. Zanzibar became an economic hub and at times 45,000 slaves a year were being shipped to various locations but primarily fueled by Portuguese demand on the Easter coast. This increase in trafficking led to brutal conditions for the enslaved including deadly marches, executions, and leaving the dying to the lions.

In spite of this, the sheer number of humans trafficked toward the chattel enterprise of the New World is hardly comparable, but instead something created to justify Europe's own actions as well as increasing criticisms of the "Islamic slave trade", though the African enjoyed the greatest emancipation of rights within the religion and Islam spread through Africa before it spread to Medina.

After all it was this emancipation that allowed for a unique African culture to thrive attracting Arabs and others towards universities in Timbuktu and proclaim the might of Mali and Mansa Musa's famed pilgrimage to Hajj, where he dispensed so much gold he seriously deflated Egypt's economy.

African culture thrived and pioneered their own exegesis and extrapolation in religion that led to African Suffism.


so all sweetness and light then ? compared to those Europeans eh, why compare it at all? why not just accept it for what it was "a slave trade" with an estimated 8-25 million people taking Oriental and the Trans-Saharan route.



Arab slave trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A6645-2004Jan10

http://www.webcitation.org/query?id=1256433042200897

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1523100.stm
 
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Wombat

Active Member
Yeah i know people cherry pick religious thought to suit themselves but its the underlying beleif that homosexuality is a disease or a mental ilness that needs to be addressed. Just because some people ignore the Roman catholic POV on contrasception that doesnt negate the Roman catholic view on Contraception.

You may think its a non issue but;

Methinks you have misunderstood my pov. I am not "cherry picking" from the Baha'i writings because there is nothing explicit/clear on the subject to pick from...i.e. The central figures of the Baha'i faith, conveying a revelation from God, had every oportunity to say something clear, explicit, direct in relation to homosexuality and did not do so....therefore, my reading, is that to God it is a "non issue". Something that desreves and recieves no clear attention.

Has it been made into an issue within the Baha'i community? Sure it has...and thus becomes one of the reasons I left the Baha'i community but not the Baha'i Faith.

It may assist understanding of my pov/view on the issue to refer you to-
Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

(Edit- Beliefnet, Baha'i Discuss forum, 'Baha'is displaying prejudice' thread )

In this forum I am 'Mr Bear' and I believe the linked thread says everything I have to say re homosexuality in the Baha'i faith.

You might like to cut to #11 and read on from there;)

Enjoy:)
 
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Bismillah

Submit
so all sweetness and light then ? compared to those Europeans eh, why compare it at all? why not just accept it for what it was "a slave trade" with an estimated 8-25 million people taking Oriental and the Trans-Saharan route.
Strawman I am not arguing that it is all "sweetness and light".

It was rather different from the Triangular trade in motives for why it existed in the first place. If you can't accept that I understand, it makes me feel better to when someone else is as guilty as I am.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Strawman I am not arguing that it is all "sweetness and light". forget that, thats just me being pedantic and i apologize for that.

It was rather different from the Triangular trade in motives for why it existed in the first place. If you can't accept that I understand, it makes me feel better to when someone else is as guilty as I am.

Again it may have been "different " but at the end of the day millions of people were taken by force to countries far away and used as slaves by Muslims. I think its wrong the way its sweetened or brushed under the carpet by some apologists.


What i am saying is it existed , the west openly admits its responsibility in the slave trade the East should do the same. Instead of denying culpability by presenting arguments that it could not be, because the Quran , Hadith and Sunnah lays out the issue of slavery in a different manner altogether than what actually happened.

So what happened " Islam " failed in its social justice the argument wasn't clear enough? or strong enough? or Muslims ignored it? or cherry picked it to justify slavery?
 
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TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Again it may have been "different " but at the end of the day millions of people were taken by force to countries far away and used as slaves by Muslims. I think its wrong the way its sweetened or brushed under the carpet by some apologists.


What i am saying is it existed , the west openly admits its responsibility in the slave trade the East should do the same. Instead of denying culpability by presenting arguments that it could not be, because the Quran , Hadith and Sunnah lays out the issue of slavery in a different manner altogether than what actually happened.

So what happened " Islam " failed in its social justice the argument wasn't clear enough? or strong enough? or Muslims ignored it? or cherry picked it to justify slavery?

Wow, that's really interesting! Sorry kai, but could you please direct me to the posts where you have jusified your opinion on why Islam failed in its social justice? If you still didn't do so, so can you please justify and elaborate on why you think so?
 

kai

ragamuffin
Wow, that's really interesting! Sorry kai, but could you please direct me to the posts where you have jusified your opinion on why Islam failed in its social justice? If you still didn't do so, so can you please justify and elaborate on why you think so?

No TashaN what i am doing is asking questions, if Muslims for hundreds and hundreds of years were in the business of slavery then what happened? did Islam fail to influence them enough? did they ignore it? or did they just interpret it wrong.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No TashaN what i am doing is asking questions, if Muslims for hundreds and hundreds of years were in the business of slavery then what happened? did Islam fail to influence them enough? did they ignore it? or did they just interpret it wrong.

They were in the business alone or with the entire world?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
With the entire world but and its a big but, the rest of the world didnt have Islam.

Sorry, i didn't understand. The world didn't have Islam, meaning? what does this Islam you are referring to was supposed to do in your opinion? and what do you mean by Islam? the religion, the people, the governments, the scholars, what exactly are you referring to because it seem vague to me.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Sorry, i didn't understand. The world didn't have Islam, meaning? what does this Islam you are referring to was supposed to do in your opinion? and what do you mean by Islam? the religion, the people, the governments, the scholars, what exactly are you referring to because it seem vague to me.

OK i think you are toying with me, but let me recap:


When i say Islam i mean the Quran ,Hadith and Sunnah which explicitly details the conditions and treatment of slaves and their emancipation, I have heard varying statements from Muslims that range from there was no slavery to there was slavery but it was somehow benign.

It seems there was the wholesale abduction of peoples from Africa and Europe to be used as slaves in the Muslim World and it went on for Hundreds and hundreds of years.


Now it seems to me that its either condoned in Islam or it isnt so which is it?




Take a look at this:


The abolition movement starting in 19th century in England and later in other Western countries influenced the slavery in Muslim lands both in doctrine and in practice.[2] One of the first religious decrees comes from the two highest dignitaries of the Hanafi and Maliki rites in the Ottoman Empire. These religious authorities declared that slavery is lawful in principle but it is regrettable in its consequences. They expressed two religious considerations in their support for abolition of slavery: "the initial enslaving of the people concerned comes under suspicion of illegality by reason of the present-day expansion of Islam in their countries; masters no longer comply with the rules of good treatment which regulate their rights and shelter them from wrong-doing."[2]
According to Brunschvig, although the total abolition of slavery might seem a reprehensible innovation and contrary to the Qur'an and the practice of early Muslims, the realities of the modern world caused a "discernible evolution in the thought of many educated Muslims before the end of the 19th century."[2] These Muslims argued that Islam on the whole has "bestowed an exceptionally favourable lot on the victims of slavery" and that the institution of slavery is linked to the particular economic and social stage in which Islam originated. According to the influential thesis of Ameer Ali, Islam only tolerated slavery through temporary necessity and that its complete abolition was not possible at the time of Muhammad.[2]
According to Brockopp, some modern interpreters have accused the medieval interpreters of having subverted the Qur'an's demand for manumission contracts (see Mukataba). They have used the dramatic change in the institution of slavery in the seventh and eighth centuries to argue that the Qur'an would not have condoned the slaving practices common in Islamic history. Others have argued that the original intent of the Qur'an, when understood properly, was to abolish slavery altogether (cf. Arafat, Attitude).[14]
The idea that Islam only tolerated slavery due to necessity has to some extent found its way into the circle of the Ulema.[14] It has been unable to gain support among the Wahhabis.[2


Islamic views on slavery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Maybe you could give me your view on it. I mean if the Quran sets out social justice what went wrong here then? or did nothing go wrong and slavery was acceptable?
 
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Bismillah

Submit
Again it may have been "different " but at the end of the day millions of people were taken by force to countries far away and used as slaves by Muslims. I think its wrong the way its sweetened or brushed under the carpet by some apologists.
There is a difference between "sweetening" history and acknowledging that the purpose and methods of slavery were completely contradictory between the European slave trade and the Arab slave trade the vast majority of the time until the 19th Century.

What i am saying is it existed , the west openly admits its responsibility in the slave trade the East should do the same. Instead of denying culpability by presenting arguments that it could not be, because the Quran , Hadith and Sunnah lays out the issue of slavery in a different manner altogether than what actually happened.
Sorry? No one is denying it existed, certainly not on the basis of the Qur'an and the Haidth. Those two realms are not even related in the particular cause, however there are countless books written by African Muslims and their chronology of the enslavement of Africa.

So what happened " Islam " failed in its social justice the argument wasn't clear enough? or strong enough? or Muslims ignored it? or cherry picked it to justify slavery?
Islam was and is quite clear in its vision towards emancipation. It is the first system in history to provide the practical steps towards a free society and outright rejected the traditional modem of slavery as thought of in the West. The idea of indentured servants most closely mirrors the condition of those who were "enslaved" in Islam and even then the horrific nature of indentured servitude is all but gone in Islam. From this basis every man, women, and child is given certain rights as well as the most important right of demanding freedom.
 

kai

ragamuffin
There is a difference between "sweetening" history and acknowledging that the purpose and methods of slavery were completely contradictory between the European slave trade and the Arab slave trade the vast majority of the time until the 19th Century.

Sorry? No one is denying it existed, certainly not on the basis of the Qur'an and the Haidth. Those two realms are not even related in the particular cause, however there are countless books written by African Muslims and their chronology of the enslavement of Africa.

Islam was and is quite clear in its vision towards emancipation. It is the first system in history to provide the practical steps towards a free society and outright rejected the traditional modem of slavery as thought of in the West. The idea of indentured servants most closely mirrors the condition of those who were "enslaved" in Islam and even then the horrific nature of indentured servitude is all but gone in Islam. From this basis every man, women, and child is given certain rights as well as the most important right of demanding freedom.



Lets for one minute please leave the west out of it and deal with Muslim societies where millions of people from Africa and Europe were forcibly taken as slaves over hundreds and hundreds of years.
 

Bismillah

Submit
I did not bring the "West" into it, I responded to this false assertion

Are you kidding? In modern (ie not ancient) times, muslims have been the most notorious slave traders of all.

Furthermore, can you please tell me how you reconcile your idea, in response to my post and thoughts on slavery?
 

kai

ragamuffin
I did not bring the "West" into it, I responded to this false assertion

thats not my post?

Furthermore, can you please tell me how you reconcile your idea, in response to my post and thoughts on slavery?

well i would do but your thoughts and posts seem to justify slavery if its less barbaric than western slavery, my idea is that slavery is wrong end of. Its never been right, its always been wrong.

These people are not immigrants or travelers they were captured and taken from their families from their country and people against their will. that has to be wrong doesn't it?



Bernard Lewis writes: "In one of the sad paradoxes of human history, it was the humanitarian reforms brought by Islam that resulted in a vast development of the slave trade inside, and still more outside, the Islamic empire." He notes that the Islamic injunctions against the enslavement of Muslims led to massive importation of slaves from the outside.[83] According to Patrick Manning, Islam by recognizing and codifying the slavery seems to have done more to protect and expand slavery than the reverse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery#Concubinage
 
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Bismillah

Submit
thats not my post?
You responded to my post which addressed the parent topic.

well i would do but your thoughts and posts seem to justify slavery if its less barbaric than western slavery, my idea is that slavery is wrong end of. Its never been right, its always been wrong.
I don't think you've really read what I've written if you think that I justify slavery, I further condemn that Islam put in place the very steps towards practical emancipation prior to any other system. Islam in essence raised the status of the slave, gave the slave certain rights, and then gave the slave an easy to reach means to escape his bondage and the Islamic government provided monetary support in this endeavor of manumission. Islam granted liberty to the most violent of antagonists and provided sanctuary to those who placed in the most precarious position due to warfare.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2336784-post389.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2336784-post389.html

That Lewis talks about Islam's fault at being responsible for increasing numbers of slaves from non-Muslim countries is laughable, the same slave raiders also made sure to limit non-Muslim's exposure to Islam. They curtailed dawah and started to imprison Muslims as well.
 

Bismillah

Submit
By the Glorious Morning Light,
And by the Night when it is still,-
Thy Guardian-Lord hath not forsaken thee, nor is He displeased.
And verily the Hereafter will be better for thee than the present.
And soon will thy Guardian-Lord give thee (that wherewith) thou shalt be well-pleased.
Did He not find thee an orphan and give thee shelter (and care)?
And He found thee wandering, and He gave thee guidance.
And He found thee in need, and made thee independent.
Therefore, treat not the orphan with harshness,
Nor repulse the petitioner (unheard);
But the bounty of the Lord - rehearse and proclaim!

Al-Qur'an Surah 93 - The Morning Hours, Morning Bright!

A thorough article on social justice in Islam
Dreamer: Islam and social Justice
 

kai

ragamuffin
You responded to my post which addressed the parent topic.OK

I don't think you've really read what I've written if you think that I justify slavery, I further condemn that Islam put in place the very steps towards practical emancipation prior to any other system. Islam in essence raised the status of the slave, gave the slave certain rights, and then gave the slave an easy to reach means to escape his bondage and the Islamic government provided monetary support in this endeavor of manumission. Islam granted liberty to the most violent of antagonists and provided sanctuary to those who placed in the most precarious position due to warfare.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2336784-post389.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2336784-post389.html


Sure but slaves they are no matter how much you dress it up, i have to repeat they were taken in their millions from their homes by force.

Slavery in what ever form you want was permitted endorsed and prolific in Islamic society for Hundreds and hundreds of years.


That Lewis talks about Islam's fault at being responsible for increasing numbers of slaves from non-Muslim countries is laughable, the same slave raiders also made sure to limit non-Muslim's exposure to Islam. They curtailed dawah and started to imprison Muslims as well.


For example, in a raid on Lisbon in 1189 the Almohad caliph Yaqub al-Mansur took 3,000 female and child captives, and his governor of Córdoba took 3,000 Christian slaves in a subsequent attack upon Silves in 1191.

They didnt leave them there did they? they took them and made them Slaves it doesn't matter what their rights were compared to American slaves. The principle of taking people from their homes and making them slaves is wrong is it not?

Slavery in medieval Europe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Bismillah

Submit
Sure but slaves they are no matter how much you dress it up, i have to repeat they were taken in their millions from their homes by force.
I am not sure how to bridge the breakdown between religious creed and actions of people.

I just outlined what Islam teaches, it gives express rights for freedoms of slaves. That means a slave can choose to create a contract for freedom that must not only be fair but subsidized by the state if not in whole at least in part.

Does that not make sense?
 

kai

ragamuffin
I am not sure how to bridge the breakdown between religious creed and actions of people.

I just outlined what Islam teaches, it gives express rights for freedoms of slaves. That means a slave can choose to create a contract for freedom that must not only be fair but subsidized by the state if not in whole at least in part.

Does that not make sense?
[/COLOR]

Yes it makes perfect sense if slavery in principle is allowed.

But Muslims didn't gradually free their slaves until there were no more , they captured and bought millions more.The Ottoman society was very nearly a slave society. Some middle eastern countries only abolished slavery in the late 20th century.

I agree that the actions of people were most probably different from their religious creed and it must be that then. that is the answer to my Question "Practice what you preach".
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Yes it makes perfect sense if slavery in principle is allowed.

But Muslims didn't gradually free their slaves until there were no more , they captured and bought millions more.The Ottoman society was very nearly a slave society. Some middle eastern countries only abolished slavery in the late 20th century.

I agree that the actions of people were most probably different from their religious creed and it must be that then. that is the answer to my Question "Practice what you preach".


I don't get this wander off into slavery Kai. Slavery is tolerated in my society today. Prostitution is the first example that jumps to my mind, illegal domestic workers might also in many instances be classified as slaves.
Our society is largely secular these days. It would be daft in the extreme to conclude from this that slavery has got something to do with secularism.
 
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