Social Justice and Islam

[kai]

I don't get this wander off into slavery Kai. Slavery is tolerated in my society today. Prostitution is the first example that jumps to my mind, illegal domestic workers might also in many instances be classified as slaves.
Our society is largely secular these days. It would be daft in the extreme to conclude from this that slavery has got something to do with secularism.

Its not a wander Stephen i am merely pondering the relationship of Islam or to be more precise Muslims to the principle of Slavery.

The Quran , Sunnah and Hadith do not outlaw slavery.

Prostitution by consent isn't Slavery and the word illegal when talking about domestic workers just about sums it up.

I am not saying its anything to do with secularism . Looking at all the evidence it seems to me that Islam was fine with slavery and adapted it and yes gave slaves more rights etc. But i challenge you to tell me that taking people by force from there homes in their millions was right.

The basic principle of slavery was condoned in Islam. In my book thats wrong, if Slavery was stated to be the outrage that it was and is, by the Prophet then that indeed would have been something for me to ponder.


Your question of Islam and social Justice must take into account Islams view on the principles of

Slavery
Homosexuality
Apostacy

And furthermore if Islam did provide social justice in leaps and bounds then in 1400 years that aspect of it it didnt catch on , why?

Social justice generally refers to the idea of creating a society or institution that is based on the principles of equality and solidarity, that understands and values human rights, and that recognizes the dignity of every human being. if the best thats on offer is 30 odd years of the rashidun then thats not a good example.



( by Islam i mean the Quran, Sunnah and Hadith.)

 

[kai]

When Islam dawned in the Arabia, slavery was prevalent, Islam didn’t invent slavery as many Christian apologists claim but rather uprooted it.
Islam abolished slavery gradually in a way that guaranteed the safety of society against social troubles. In the Arabian Peninsula trade and agriculture depended mainly on the work of slaves. Some people traded in slaves. So, to avoid a revolution or social insurgences, Islam set rules to eliminate this problem gradually.
Islam Uprooted Slavery




Yep it was gradual alright:

1962 Saudi Arabia abolishes slavery
1962 Yemen abolishes slavery
1963 United Arab Emirates abolishes slavery
1970 Oman abolishes slavery


why was it that gradual?

 

[sandandfoam]

Hi Kai ,

Prostitution by consent isn't Slavery and the word illegal when talking about domestic workers just about sums it up.

You're splitting hairs. What is legal and what society accepts are not the same. You know well I'm not talking about prostitution by consent - I am talking about the many many people trafficked in, ditto with domestic workers.
But that's not the argument we're at here.

The Quran , Sunnah and Hadith do not outlaw slavery.

They don't outlaw speeding on the motorway either. But they do present a standard for people to attempt to follow.

I am not saying its anything to do with secularism .

Agreed, that was me. My point was to make a daft argument for illustrative purposes.

Looking at all the evidence it seems to me that Islam was fine with slavery and adapted it and yes gave slaves more rights etc.

So was Britain, America etc etc. Times move on and I don't see the relevance

But i challenge you to tell me that taking people by force from there homes in their millions was right.

Of course I'm not going to try and do that because it would be daft of me - but again I don't see the point.

The basic principle of slavery was condoned in Islam. In my book thats wrong, if Slavery was stated to be the outrage that it was and is, by the Prophet then that indeed would have been something for me to ponder.

Trying to come to grips with Islam in a modern world is more than enough of a task for me -delving into imaginations of how it may have been understood/applied in a society geographically, culturally and temporally remote from me is beyond my abilities




Your question of Islam and social Justice must take into account Islams view on the principles of

Slavery
Homosexuality
Apostacy

And furthermore if Islam did provide social justice in leaps and bounds then in 1400 years that aspect of it it didnt catch on , why?

Social justice generally refers to the idea of creating a society or institution that is based on the principles of equality and solidarity, that understands and values human rights, and that recognizes the dignity of every human being. if the best thats on offer is 30 odd years of the rashidun then thats not a good example.

Precisely the message I get from Islam. It's there very visibly if one cares to find it
Of course it's equally as easy to find nutters who confirm pre-existing stereotypes, depends what one is seeking I suppose.

 

[England my lionheart]

No surprise that it took Human beings to decide Slavery is wrong and actually do something about it,no gradual weaning from the practice,no special rules for keeping Slaves,once made into law Slavery was illegal end of story.

 

[Badran]

why was it that gradual?

Because many Muslims decided to not follow their religion properly.

 

[kai]

Hi Kai ,


You're splitting hairs. What is legal and what society accepts are not the same. You know well I'm not talking about prostitution by consent - I am talking about the many many people trafficked in, ditto with domestic workers.
But that's not the argument we're at here.

Stephen i dont know about where you live, but people trafficked in as sex slaves or anything else is not acceptable in England thats for sure.





They don't outlaw speeding on the motorway either. But they do present a standard for people to attempt to follow. They never had cars or motorways but slavery they did have and continued to have up until very recently .Slavery was even then thousands of years old.Islam administered and regulated it .


Agreed, that was me. My point was to make a daft argument for illustrative purposes. OK



So was Britain, America etc etc. Times move on and I don't see the relevance :shrug
You dont see the significance of God condoning slavery?





Of course I'm not going to try and do that because it would be daft of me - but again I don't see the point. you dont see the point of making a declaration that slavery in all its forms is an affront to humanity?






Trying to come to grips with Islam in a modern world is more than enough of a task for me -delving into imaginations of how it may have been understood/applied in a society geographically, culturally and temporally remote from me is beyond my abilities. well its easy to understand, its all well documented you just read the rules on how to treat a slave.




Your question of Islam and social Justice must take into account Islams view on the principles of

Slavery
Homosexuality
Apostacy

And furthermore if Islam did provide social justice in leaps and bounds then in 1400 years that aspect of it it didnt catch on , why?



Precisely the message I get from Islam. It's there very visibly if one cares to find it
Of course it's equally as easy to find nutters who confirm pre-existing stereotypes, depends what one is seeking I suppose.

I am glad you can reconcile yourself with those issues

 

[kai]

Because many Muslims decided to not follow their religion properly.

Yes exactly! but on such a scale for such a long time, forgive me if I have to wonder why?

 

[sandandfoam]

I am glad you can reconcile yourself with those issues

The issues are yours not mine

Neither of us has access to 'Islam' - In my view we construct our reality, we don't just pick it up. This Islam that we are discussing is a product of our minds. Your Islam is not mine nor mine yours.
You see threatening bogeymen that keep slaves and engage in goodness knows what type of barbarity, I see social justice and the wisdon of the sufis.
We're both relying on our imagination.

Arguing about literalist interpretations of religion misses the point.

 

[sandandfoam]

Stephen i dont know about where you live, but people trafficked in as sex slaves or anything else is not acceptable in England thats for sure.

On a seperate not I simply do not believe this to be true. If it were these unfortunate people would not have a steady stream of 'clients'.

Human trafficking is perfectly acceptable in our societies, if it were not the number of victims would not be so huge.

 

[Badran]

Yes exactly! but on such a scale for such a long time, forgive me if I have to wonder why?

I understand what you mean. I couldn't answer this question for sure, but my guess would be something like this. Until certain things happened in societies, world wide this was not abolished. Whenever those things happened in a certain society, slavery was abolished. The same way happened with Muslim societies, as they are no different. Whenever any given Muslim society experienced certain changes, slavery was abolished. Add to that, that in the beginning, when the religion was followed properly, slaves were being freed in huge numbers. Muslims used to buy and free slaves as well.

So, basically, the reason it didn't last long and Muslims carried on the way they did is because they ignored their religion and only followed the convenient parts, and became pretty much like the rest of the world. The reason they were such a contributing factor to slavery, might have to do with the power they had. Muslims were powerful for a very long time and as far as i see most if not all powerful nations or empires through history has sunk pretty low when it comes to how have they handled that power of theirs.

EDIT: Not all Muslims of course, and not all people in general were like that, but apparently enough people.

 

[kai]

The issues are yours not mine


yep i have an issues lol

Neither of us has access to 'Islam' - In my view we construct our reality, we don't just pick it up. This Islam that we are discussing is a product of our minds. Your Islam is not mine nor mine yours.
You see threatening bogeymen that keep slaves and engage in goodness knows what type of barbarity, I see social justice and the wisdon of the sufis.
We're both relying on our imagination.

Arguing about literalist interpretations of religion misses the point.

what i am arguing or inquiring about is the historical and modern applications of it. the rest is for those that swim in deeper waters. enjoy the swim Stephen.

 

[kai]

On a seperate not I simply do not believe this to be true. If it were these unfortunate people would not have a steady stream of 'clients'. I am not acquainted with the facts on this.

Human trafficking is perfectly acceptable in our societies, if it were not the number of victims would not be so huge.

The size of the problem ( and i am not sure its huge) is because we are a relatively free society and its relatively easy to get here. I mean compared to some countries our way of life is a boon to the criminal.

But to say its acceptable to society as a whole, is i think wrong.

 

[sandandfoam]

The size of the problem ( and i am not sure its huge) is because we are a relatively free society and its relatively easy to get here. I mean compared to some countries our way of life is a boon to the criminal.

But to say its acceptable to society as a whole, is i think wrong.

I think it's an interesting subject and will start a thread if you're interested in discussing it further?

 

[kai]

I think it's an interesting subject and will start a thread if you're interested in discussing it further?

Yes go ahead.

 

[TashaN]

OK i think you are toying with me, but let me recap:

Believe me i'm not. I just want to know exactly what i'm replying to.

When i say Islam i mean the Quran ,Hadith and Sunnah which explicitly details the conditions and treatment of slaves and their emancipation, I have heard varying statements from Muslims that range from there was no slavery to there was slavery but it was somehow benign.

It seems there was the wholesale abduction of peoples from Africa and Europe to be used as slaves in the Muslim World and it went on for Hundreds and hundreds of years.


Now it seems to me that its either condoned in Islam or it isnt so which is it?




Take a look at this:


The abolition movement starting in 19th century in England and later in other Western countries influenced the slavery in Muslim lands both in doctrine and in practice.[2] One of the first religious decrees comes from the two highest dignitaries of the Hanafi and Maliki rites in the Ottoman Empire. These religious authorities declared that slavery is lawful in principle but it is regrettable in its consequences. They expressed two religious considerations in their support for abolition of slavery: "the initial enslaving of the people concerned comes under suspicion of illegality by reason of the present-day expansion of Islam in their countries; masters no longer comply with the rules of good treatment which regulate their rights and shelter them from wrong-doing."[2]
According to Brunschvig, although the total abolition of slavery might seem a reprehensible innovation and contrary to the Qur'an and the practice of early Muslims, the realities of the modern world caused a "discernible evolution in the thought of many educated Muslims before the end of the 19th century."[2] These Muslims argued that Islam on the whole has "bestowed an exceptionally favourable lot on the victims of slavery" and that the institution of slavery is linked to the particular economic and social stage in which Islam originated. According to the influential thesis of Ameer Ali, Islam only tolerated slavery through temporary necessity and that its complete abolition was not possible at the time of Muhammad.[2]
According to Brockopp, some modern interpreters have accused the medieval interpreters of having subverted the Qur'an's demand for manumission contracts (see Mukataba). They have used the dramatic change in the institution of slavery in the seventh and eighth centuries to argue that the Qur'an would not have condoned the slaving practices common in Islamic history. Others have argued that the original intent of the Qur'an, when understood properly, was to abolish slavery altogether (cf. Arafat, Attitude).[14]
The idea that Islam only tolerated slavery due to necessity has to some extent found its way into the circle of the Ulema.[14] It has been unable to gain support among the Wahhabis.[2


Islamic views on slavery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Maybe you could give me your view on it. I mean if the Quran sets out social justice what went wrong here then? or did nothing go wrong and slavery was acceptable?

Before i give you my views on it, what do you make of the things being said in the link you gave me?

 

[TashaN]

Kai, forgive me if i misunderstood you, but are you suggesting that Islam failed in the social justice arena because Prophet Mohamed didn't abolish slavery when he appeared? Is that what you mean?

 

[Yerda]

Yes exactly! but on such a scale for such a long time, forgive me if I have to wonder why?

Well, Muslims are people, and like the rest of us have an inclination towards ignoring what doesn't suit us. That might, in part, explain something.

 

[Bismillah]

Yes it makes perfect sense if slavery in principle is allowed.

How is slavery allowed in principle when Islam strictly mandates the rights of a "slave" to secure his freedom at a just price, which is decided by the courts, and then his contract is either partly or fully subsidized by the state.

Something isn't clicking because the moment a "slave" has the opportunity to decide to choose freedom, he is no longer a slave.

Rather it isn't even slavery in the most base sense of the word. Or is a prisoner a "slave"? If I go to a penitentiary by committing an offensive action I don't plead my case of enslavement.

The system Islam sets up is an alternative to the condition of prisoners of war in the modern sense and much more humane as these people are eventually incorporated into society not detained in a no-mans land and left to rot.

I agree that the actions of people were most probably different from their religious creed and it must be that then. that is the answer to my Question "Practice what you preach".

Rather obvious isn't it? The Prophet himself set free all the slaves that fell into his possesion and his household set free more than 30,000 slaves. The Rashidun continued this tradition and there are hundreds of accounts of the Caliphs buying slaves from Kaffirs and then setting them free.

Islam did abolish slavery, we can look to our ideal paradigms for that.

In fact, what I sense is you trying to shift Islam from its core tenants and then looking at the practices of men who valued the coin above the creed and purposefully stopped their dawah to increase the yield of their slave raids.

I'm sorry, but you have YET to come up with a convincing argument that Islam not only encouraged slavery, but that it even tolerated it.

The edicts don't tolerate it, the Prophet didn't tolerate it, and his companions didn't tolerate it. If Islam were to tolerate slavery, the entire discussion would be mum on their condition, wouldn't begrudge providing a way out of that enslavement as well as command the Caliphate as its religious duty to spend the income it earns from taxes on buying the contracts of these "slaves".

 

[Yerda]

Rather it isn't even slavery in the most base sense of the word.

So, to be clear, the people that are protected in Islam are not actually slaves?

Not the people Kai is talking about who are (were) commodities in a slave trade?

 

[Bismillah]

So, to be clear, the people that are protected in Islam are not actually slaves?

The Qur'an enjoins Muslims to not call those under their possession "slaves" and but rather my man and maiden. It also refers to them as those who are possessed by your right hand.

Two important factors considering this, the Qur'an notes that the condition of those who fall under the possession of the state are not slaves. They retain basic human rights and the right to ask for a just manumission as well as the right to be aided in that contract's fulfilling through monetary aid. They are not to lose their humanity as that is the precursor to losing the means towards freedom.

Islam also recognizes that if they are indeed "slaves" they are not slaves of a person or individual but rather the state. It is the state that allocates to which household these people are assigned to, rather than the other way around. These people are entrusted to Muslims, without their own preference, and as such a man has no right to call another his slave as it was provided and enjoined by the state.

Possessed by your right hand means that you are given authority over them and also given responsibility. To clothe and feed them, to treat them respectfully, and if they desire chastity or marriage to let them do so freely. It recognizes that the blood of a "slave" is as valuable as that of a man and that he cannot be given tasks of hard labor without adequate assistance.

My prior links give adequate references to the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sunnah on the treatment of these people.

What we must recognize is the ultimate goal of slavery.

What is the motives of slavery? For economic profit? That is outlawed considering that Islam heavily punishes those who commit injustices on their people.

For concubinage as was the aim of the Arab slave trade? That is also outlawed given that those in bondage are given the rights towards chastity and marriage if they desire.

Why would Islam dictate manumissions if it tolerated slavery? Does that make any rational sense?

The aim of this bondage is not slavery, as a slave loses all hopes towards freedom and can never dictate his condition on the return of those freedoms.

The closest parallel would be the penitentiary system, however a man in Islam is given his freedom once he contributes positively towards society (such as teaching a person to read).

The aim can roughly be considered parallels in that they aim at reforming those who were at war with the Ummah and incorporating them into society.

The question then pops up what about those who did not fight? Women and children? Provided that the man of the household was not killed in fighting, he would be in bondage.

In Islam, the family is the network of support financially and spiritually. These people would be incorporated into the same household and become, by law, members of the family. They would never lose the right to support themselves if they so desired.

It is also the basis of Islamic jurisprudence that if the male is freed then his family is also freed.