Social Justice and Islam

[kai]

A reply that I've posted before



And perhaps you might want to be careful about arguing about America "fighting slavery in 1805" when it was still legalized and enshrined within 'merican values at the time.

yeah yeah! all was sweetness and light and the millions of slaves taken from all over the empire had no cause to complain, after all weren't they better off?


Arab slave trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Of course theres always some who arnt satisfied with their lot!


Zanj Rebellion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[sandandfoam]

Well after reading through the madness that has been posted here I realise I'm the only sane person in the house.

I found what I was looking for in Karen Armstrongs book. Thanks anyway

 

[kai]

Well after reading through the madness that has been posted here I realise I'm the only sane person in the house.

I found what I was looking for in Karen Armstrongs book. Thanks anyway

Madness is a frame of mind Stephen, just a frame of mind!

 

[Looncall]

• Half of Canadian women (51%) have experienced at least one incident of physical or sexual violence since the age of 16.
• Every minute of every day, a Canadian woman or child is being sexually assaulted.
• One to two women are murdered by a current or former partner each week in Canada.

Canadian Women's Foundation

What stops me from saying this reflects the culture of the Canadians? If half of the women have a history of sexual or physical assault, shouldn't this speak volumes about people there and their culture?

Even given these statistics, you cannot claim that harassment is considered the norm here. In Egypt it is so considered.

Here is some info. BBC NEWS | Middle East | Egypt's sexual harassment 'cancer'

 

[England my lionheart]

My oh my how people tend to lose themselves into repeating the same things over and over, well I'll just c/p an answer that directly refutes such idiotic claims.

:ignore:

There is no such thing as "slavery" in the Western sense as there is no such thing in Islam that forfeits the freedom of man, women, or child.

Lets see what a scholar says,Sheikh Amad Kutty good enough for you


Slavery has been abolished once and for all. Therefore, although it was permissible at one time in history, we are not allowed to resurrect it. For Allah will not look at someone who takes a free man or woman and makes them slaves. So the practice you have mentioned can never be approved in Islam. The only choice left for you now is to choose to marry a woman by her own free will with the intention of forming a permanent union. All other forms of establishing intimacy between man and woman, even though it had been permissible at one time in history, have been abolished for ever. May Allah guide us to the truth.


See,it was once ok but now its not,"we are not allowed to ressurect it",this is due to Human effort,if only all Muslims would see it that way

 

[England my lionheart]

Well after reading through the madness that has been posted here I realise I'm the only sane person in the house.

I found what I was looking for in Karen Armstrongs book. Thanks anyway

Well you did ask

 

[England my lionheart]

Quote,wombat:

Ok...put em up and let’s take a look at them.
But let's also be prepared to take a look at Islams contribution to social justice

I'm going to start with sexuality,Homosexuality has only been legal in the UK since 1967 and Scotland,Northern Ireland 1980/82 respectively,this would be impossible in either a Christian or Muslim Theocracy.

In the Qur'an a Homosexual is condemned to Hell,in the hadith to death,thrown from a high place prescribed by some,because this is Allahs word it will never change,in a society that builds its social justice around the Qur'an for example this can never change although there is a Gay Muslim movement.

Here is what some scholars say on the subject:

It clashes with the "natural" order in which God created human beings

If you believe in the Abrahmic God

It brings destruction of the family and the institutions of marriage

IMO the prejudice of in the scripture is more responsible for that

It leads people to ignore God's guidance in other areas of life

The fear here is obvious

In Islamic terminology, homosexuality is alternatively called al-fahsha' (an obscene act), shudhudh (abnormality), or 'amal qawm Lut (behavior of the People of Lut). Islam teaches that believers should neither participate in nor support homosexuality.

Social justice IMO should be inclusive,here it definately isn't,this as i said before cannot change whereas here modern society treats all people the same regardless of sexuality which is something adherents to Islam can not do.

Slavery is wrong,plain and simple,encouraging people to give it up in the Qur'an or Bible isn't enough,if you are an all powerful God and you condemn unbelievers to the fire the same could be done for Slavery,it wasn't and Slavery still exists.

I understand why you haven't replied Wombat,your faith isn't condusive to Homosexuality either.

 

[Wombat]

I understand why you haven't replied Wombat,your faith isn't condusive to Homosexuality either.

1/ I ask you to give quotes from the Quran to support your pov...you give me-
"Here is what some scholars say on the subject".

Meh.

2/ My former >Community< of faith "isn't condusive to Homosexuality"....my Faith is disinterested.

 

[England my lionheart]

1/ I ask you to give quotes from the Quran to support your pov...you give me-
"Here is what some scholars say on the subject".

7:80-1 "And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you? Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but ye are wanton folk."

I know thats not true,how can love be an abomination ?,duh sorry,my bad,the book tells you it is.

Meh.

2/ My former >Community< of faith "isn't condusive to Homosexuality"....my Faith is disinterested.

Kind of sitting on the fence type disinterested,i've heard there is some disagreement within your faith on the subject

 

[Wombat]

Kind of sitting on the fence type disinterested,

Nope...Kind of nothing much or clear cut in Baha'i scripture that indicates it was an issue God was interested in/concerned about.

i've heard there is some disagreement within your faith on the subject

Yea...there are some among the Baha'i sex police who think there is clear Baha'i law on the issue...but cannot articulate how breach of such law could/would be determined (unless some Baha'i boldly stated/claimed to be actively gay or had sex in public)...the supposed 'Baha'i law' cannot intrude into the bedroom and is therefore uninforcable/useless.

 

[England my lionheart]

Nope...Kind of nothing much or clear cut in Baha'i scripture that indicates it was an issue God was interested in/concerned about.

Fair enough

Yea...there are some among the Baha'i sex police who think there is clear Baha'i law on the issue...but cannot articulate how breach of such law could/would be determined (unless some Baha'i boldly stated/claimed to be actively gay or had sex in public)...the supposed 'Baha'i law' cannot intrude into the bedroom and is therefore uninforcable/useless.

Interesting

 

[kai]

he Bahá'í Faith teaches that the only acceptable form of sexual expression is within marriage, and Bahá'í marriage is defined in the religion's texts as exclusively between one man and one woman.[1][2] Bahá'ís stress the importance of absolute chastity for any unmarried person,[3] and focus on personal restraint.
While in authoritative teachings homosexuality is described as a condition that an individual should control and overcome,[4] Bahá'ís are left to apply the teachings at their own discretion, and are discouraged from singling out homosexuality over other transgressions, such as the consumption of alcohol, or heterosexual promiscuity.[5] Membership in the Bahá'í community is therefore open to lesbian and gay adherents,[6] who are to be

"advised and sympathized with"

.


well i suppose its ok as long as you dont want to admit it, or if you do, you can be advised ( not sure what) and sympathized with.


Homosexuality and the Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[England my lionheart]

he Bahá'í Faith teaches that the only acceptable form of sexual expression is within marriage, and Bahá'í marriage is defined in the religion's texts as exclusively between one man and one woman.[1][2] Bahá'ís stress the importance of absolute chastity for any unmarried person,[3] and focus on personal restraint.
While in authoritative teachings homosexuality is described as a condition that an individual should control and overcome,[4] Bahá'ís are left to apply the teachings at their own discretion, and are discouraged from singling out homosexuality over other transgressions, such as the consumption of alcohol, or heterosexual promiscuity.[5] Membership in the Bahá'í community is therefore open to lesbian and gay adherents,[6] who are to be .


well i suppose its ok as long as you dont want to admit it, or if you do, you can be advised ( not sure what) and sympathized with.

Hope its not the advice some Christians and Muslims give,sympathized with,perhaps they see it as some kind of sickness

 

[Wombat]

well i suppose its ok as long as you dont want to admit it, or if you do, you can be advised ( not sure what) and sympathized with.

kai....It's much like the dynamic you will find in any religion/group/organization- There is the Mission Statement/Scripture (many ignore or have forgotten it)...the Administrations current operating Policy.....and what people do .

In my limited hetro male experience most Baha'is couldn't care less about someones sexuality. There are fundamentalist Baha'is that do...but, as I said previously, what can they do? How can the Baha'i Administrative Order (and/or concerned fundamentalists) track down/identify >who< is actively gay?

They can't....and thus their pov is rendered much the same as the Catholic pov on contraception...........most people just ignore it.

And the world moves on from such non issues.

 

[Bismillah]

yeah yeah! all was sweetness and light and the millions of slaves taken from all over the empire had no cause to complain, after all weren't they better off?

Strawman.

The Zanj rebellion was not a surprise given the brutal treatment meted out on those saltpans. However, in contrast with the Triangular Trade these institutions were hardly prevalent. Sadly, the same could not be said for the New World where the slave was the necessary economic driving force for cash crops, as the locals made bad slaves Africans were enslaved and shipped.

As I've stated previously the male to female ratio heavily tips into the female's favor and the Arab slave trade heavily focused on concubinage. It wasn't until the 18th century and the destruction of the Swahilli by Portuguese explorers and conquering of Mozambique did the slave trade pick up in number of humans trafficked. Zanzibar became an economic hub and at times 45,000 slaves a year were being shipped to various locations but primarily fueled by Portuguese demand on the Easter coast. This increase in trafficking led to brutal conditions for the enslaved including deadly marches, executions, and leaving the dying to the lions.

In spite of this, the sheer number of humans trafficked toward the chattel enterprise of the New World is hardly comparable, but instead something created to justify Europe's own actions as well as increasing criticisms of the "Islamic slave trade", though the African enjoyed the greatest emancipation of rights within the religion and Islam spread through Africa before it spread to Medina.

After all it was this emancipation that allowed for a unique African culture to thrive attracting Arabs and others towards universities in Timbuktu and proclaim the might of Mali and Mansa Musa's famed pilgrimage to Hajj, where he dispensed so much gold he seriously deflated Egypt's economy.

In the mid-eleventh century, the African caliph Al-Mustansir ruled Egypt with his mother, a Sudanese enslaved woman of remarkable strength of character.

The 9th century African Muslim author Al-Jahiz, wrote a book entitled Risalat mufakharat al-Sudan 'ala al-bidan ("the Superiority of Blacks over Whites"), in which he stated that Africans:

"...have conquered the country of the Arabs as far as Mecca and have governed them. We defeated Dhu Nowas (Jewish King of Yemen) and killed all the Himyarite princes, but you, White people, have never conquered our country. Our people, the Zenghs revolted forty times in the Euphrates, driving the inhabitants from their homes and making Oballah a bath of blood."

Blacks are physically stronger than no matter what other people. A single one of them can lift stones of greater weight and carry burdens such as several Whites could not lift nor carry between them. [...] They are brave, strong, and generous as witness their nobility and general lack of wickedness

African culture thrived and pioneered their own exegesis and extrapolation in religion that led to African Suffism.

 

[dsmith678]

Interesting

 

[kai]

kai....It's much like the dynamic you will find in any religion/group/organization- There is the Mission Statement/Scripture (many ignore or have forgotten it)...the Administrations current operating Policy.....and what people do .

In my limited hetro male experience most Baha'is couldn't care less about someones sexuality. There are fundamentalist Baha'is that do...but, as I said previously, what can they do? How can the Baha'i Administrative Order (and/or concerned fundamentalists) track down/identify >who< is actively gay?

They can't....and thus their pov is rendered much the same as the Catholic pov on contraception...........most people just ignore it.

And the world moves on from such non issues.

Yeah i know people cherry pick religious thought to suit themselves but its the underlying beleif that homosexuality is a disease or a mental ilness that needs to be addressed. Just because some people ignore the Roman catholic POV on contrasception that doesnt negate the Roman catholic view on Contraception.

You may think its a non issue but;


"No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Baha'u'llah, and homosexual relationships He looks upon as such, besides being against nature.

"To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap."



UHJ letter: homosexuality.uhj.html




V. The Struggle With Homosexual Inclinations



The condition of being sexually attracted to some object other than a mature member of the opposite sex, a condition of which homosexuality is but one manifestation, is regarded by the Faith as a distortion of true human nature, as a problem to be overcome, no matter what specific physical or psychological condition may be the immediate cause. Any Baha'i who suffers from such a disability should be treated with understanding, and should be helped to control and overcome it. All of us suffer from imperfections which we must struggle to overcome, and we all need one another's understanding and patience. (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, Sept. 11, 1995; published in "The American Baha'i", Qawl 152 BE/Nov. 23, 1995, p 11.)

http://bahai-library.com/unpubl.compilations/homosexuality.comp.html

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I find that those who espouse an ideal of social justice are very particular about who's idea of justice they represent. Then again, they're very good at rationalizing that their particular ideals are what's good for everyone. A very frightening perspective.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

The comparison with Catholic official teaching on contraception is a good one. There's a letter written on the Guardian's behalf that says,

"As to the problem of birth control. Neither Bahá'u'lláh nor 'Abdu'l-Bahá has revealed anything direct or explicit regarding this question. But the Bahá'í Teachings, when carefully studied imply that such current conceptions like birth control, if not necessarily wrong and immoral in principle, have nevertheless to be discarded as constituting a real danger to the very foundation of our social life. For Bahá'u'lláh explicitly reveals in His Book of Laws that the very purpose of marriage is the procreation of children who, when grown up, will be able to know God and to recognize and observe His Commandments and Laws as revealed through His Messengers. Marriage is thus, according to the Bahá'í Teachings, primarily a social and moral act. It has purpose which transcends the immediate personal needs and interests of the parties..."
(October 14, 1935)

I don't know of any Bahais who go around saying that the Bahai Faith teaches that birth control should be abandoned as a danger to society. Yet I do know Bahais who cite the two letters on the Guardian's behalf you've quoted as if they were the last word on Bahai law and doctrine (the Bahais who do this, don't distinguish law and doctrine - we're talking about popular religion at its most simplistic here).

So why is one letter ignored, and the other held up as central? Because our fear of the danger of birth control (pillophobia?) has faded, while homophobia is still alive and well. It's about peoples' prejudice, emotions, and insecurities, which makes it painful to address in the short term, but is good news in the long term. Where there's death, there's hope. The next generation will be as relaxed about same sex marriages, as this generation is about birth control.

 

[England my lionheart]

This is what social justice means to me:

The fair and proper administration of laws conforming to the natural law that all persons, irrespective of ethnic origin, gender, possessions, race, religion, etc., are to be treated equally and without prejudice. See also civil rights.

What is social justice? definition and meaning

IMO its obvious that the Bible and Qur'an fall short of providing for everyone,of course secular social justice isn't perfect but it has the bebefit of being able to change whereas scriptual social justice doesn't.