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Socialism gets pretty ugly

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Then show people here your assumptions & calculations.
Like how you blame WW2 deaths on capitalism.

I thought I already did, in the other thread. Maybe it was in a post or a part you missed. I'll admit that I sometimes write rather long posts - in an attempt to be comprehensive and cover all the bases, anticipating whatever counterarguments might be raised. This may lead people to just gloss through it while claiming later that I "never addressed it," even if it was in a portion they missed.

I went through the calculations point by point, using the date supplied in the link. If you're questioning the data put forth in the website I linked, we can go over that in greater detail if you're so inclined. I haven't checked all his sources and footnotes, but he does seem to have ample documentation.

As for my assumptions, I recognize capitalism as a competitive form of social/economic Darwinism. It's just a variation of the same theme - the strong take the weak - survival of the fittest.

The ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans did it. The Mongols did it. The Persians did it. The Zulu did it. The Aztecs did it. The British and French did it. We Americans of European ancestry did it. The Germans did it. The Italians did it. The Japanese did it. It might be called different things - nationalism, tribalism, capitalism - but they all come down to the same competitive, dog-eat-dog mindset. "Let's stick it to the other guy so we can get more booty." It's all variations on the same theme.

You can dress it up however you want, and after a while, you can work on points for style - like the club tie and the firm handshake. A certain look in the eye and an easy smile.

But it is what it is.

Nationalism and capitalism have that connection and run parallel to each other, which is why I attribute the deaths in WW2 mainly to capitalism.

To understand the causes of World War II, one has to understand the causes of World War I - which was sparked by a confluence of nationalism and capitalism practiced in their rawest form.

Even before WW1, in the 19th century, Napoleon III, Bismarck, and other ostensibly nationalist leaders also advocated an expansion of government social programs to make life better for their people. Such programs might be considered the early forerunners of "socialism," which may have also carried through to the Nazi era. But it was the idea that a nationalist government should be benevolent to its own people, while largely indifferent to outsiders. The Nazis were obviously the most extreme in this particular area.

But that's not really what caused the war. The Germans and Japanese had relatively small territories, no colonial empires to speak of, and had limited natural resources need by modern industries. In contrast, the US had a huge landmass teeming with resources (along with hegemony over Latin America), while the British and French had huge colonial empires across the entire globe. (Remember that these colonial empires initially started out as business enterprises, so the capitalist aspects are planted in the very foundation of "empire.")

So, the Axis Powers feared becoming second-rate powers. Germany was also resentful over the punitive Treaty of Versailles, while Japan and Italy, even though they were on the winning side in WW1, didn't feel they got enough of the spoils. It wasn't just a matter of nationalism - flag-waving, pride, or glory - but it was also a matter of money, resources, and control of the world markets. These are purely capitalistic concerns and goals, and they were more than willing and able to take the dog-eat-dog approach to get what they wanted.

They may have had some aspects of "socialism," although they still had a class hierarchy. But their overriding nationalism suggested that class wasn't really that big a deal, since all pure "Aryans" were of the same blood and the same "tribe," so to speak. They probably figured that Germany's victory would be so great and lucrative that there'd be more than enough spoils to go around that even the working class Germans could live in comfort and relative luxury with a high standard of living. (Kind of like how it turned out for Americans after WW2.)

Internationalist socialism would be an entirely different kettle of fish, since all humans of all nationalities would be considered equal and deserving of the same standard of living as anyone else. There wouldn't be any "other" to make war against, enslave, exploit, or otherwise mistreat.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Yes. I am aware of that. I was parodying the simple minded who believe such nonsense.
"As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. The word derives from fasces, the Roman symbol of collectivism and power: a tied bundle of rods with a protruding ax. In its day (the 1920s and 1930s), fascism was seen as the happy medium between boom-and-bust-prone liberal capitalism, with its alleged class conflict, wasteful competition, and profit-oriented egoism, and revolutionary Marxism, with its violent and socially divisive persecution of the bourgeoisie. "
https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Yes. I am aware of that. I was parodying the simple minded who believe such nonsense.
Fascism = BIG government , (socialism with some capitalism)

Socialism is BIG government which has more potential for good... Provided that the government is compassionate, benevolent, wise, and prudent.

Either way, big government can create a nightmare, or do a lot of good.

The high taxes in Scandinavia seem to be over all used responsibly and compassionately, at least from what I hear.

I'm no expert, and I don't live in Scandinavia, so I don't know. From what I know about socialism and fascism, the government simply has too much power.

But socialism has worked well at times and places imo
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
As I said, I have been to communities where the monks, the nuns, or the friars, own almost nothing, and almost everything belongs to the community.

This is a form of Socialism that I've seen work very well.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Regarding the thread title, the word "pretty" next to the word "ugly" sort of cancels each other out. Socialism is pretty and ugly. Socialism overall is plain ;). Lol! The Good The Bad and The Ugly! :D
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Your post makes me want to cry.

But I appreciate it! :)

I don't really know what the future holds, although perhaps someday, humans might learn to live with each other in peace, cooperation, and shared effort towards mutual benefit. It's not totally hopeless.

We are, after all, just "ugly giant bags of mostly water."


Star Trek gives us a vision of what a socialist future might look like.

"People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We have grown out of our infancy."

 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I don't really know what the future holds, although perhaps someday, humans might learn to live with each other in peace, cooperation, and shared effort towards mutual benefit. It's not totally hopeless.

We are, after all, just "ugly giant bags of mostly water."


Star Trek gives us a vision of what a socialist future might look like.

"People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We have grown out of our infancy."

In you I see a socialist with a good heart.
The world needs more of you! :)
 

Cacotopia

Let's go full Trottle
why does everyone confuse socialism fascism and communism and then magically think they are the same thing?
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
The National Socialist German Workers' Party, commonly referred to in English as the Nazi Party, and the Communist Parties (which have a higher kill count) are both socialist.

Why has socialism turned so ugly?
Well, if you read the first line of Wikipedia about the Nazi Party, it says....
The National Socialist German Workers' Party abbreviated NSDAP), commonly referred to in English as the Nazi Party was a far-right political party in Germany that was active between 1920 and 1945, that created and supported the ideology of Nazism. Its precursor, the German Workers' Party, existed from 1919 to 1920.

So, although wiki isn't totally reliable, it does appear to describe it as FAR RIGHT.

The use of the word 'socialist' cab be used to fool the electorate.
 

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Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't think there's any agreed upon definition for it.
Those who like it tend to reject dictionary the dictionary
definitions I've offered. Makes it hard to discuss, eh.

Well, there is, but of course there are those groups that like to dissociate socialism from communism and whatnot.

Socialism in a free market societies like in Scandinavia raid the profiteers with taxes. Like 50% taxes, so they float the social burden by oppressively commandeering the resources that could be injected back into their economies and growing them. This is generally the crap people like Bernie Sanders want, but apparently they can't do basic math and realize it's burden is at least half the burden we already carry. Just imagine all the government expenditures doubling or worse from the levels that they are doing now. Services provided usually get rationed, so if this is what you're down with... :D

In communistic socialist countries, it's more that the government makes the market. Everything will be "taken care of" at the expense of having no true ownership. Personally, I think in such a system you give up too much for too little. The government is never really as good at giving anyone anything in comparison to someone motivated by personal profit and reputation. However, this leads to some other real problems -- like quality control. Since there is no pride and no need to appease the customer the services are not driven by customer happiness. You basically get the lowest level of anything -- whatever keeps the peasants from revolting.

All systems have faults, even capitalism... It's just capitalism allows you to solve the faults yourself if you're willing to take the risk.
 
After totalling up the score, at least based on the events listed in the above link, it came to:

Capitalists: 322,500,000
Communists: 68,000,000


Only if you assume, in a highly facile manner, that there have only been 2 economic systems than have existed throughout human history and that everything that happened in these societies is a direct consequence of the economic system.

To do this though, you need to claim that pre-modern nomadic tribes were 'capitalists' in the modern sense which is pretty ridiculous.

Also, given by your criteria we have a very small number of communist states (maybe 1% of human societies) and a massive number of 'capitalist' ones (the other 99%) from throughout human history, we still see this tiny number of communist states appearing disproportionately highly in this list.

Nazism is nationalism, which is a natural consequence of unchecked capitalism. Both nationalism and capitalism subscribe to principles of dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest, so the connection is clear.

Again you are projecting contemporary expectations back into the past. Even 70 or so years ago nationalism and imperialism were very much also supported by left wing parties throughout Europe. Imperialism had a progressive mission after all.

Trying to fit everything into right v left, communism v capitalism is an impediment to thought and can only ever result in a misrepresentation of human history.
 
So, although wiki isn't totally reliable, it does appear to describe it as FAR RIGHT.

Perhaps reductionist terms like right/left are incapable of contributing to an informed discussion particularly when they carry so much contemporary identitarian baggage.

The Nazis certainly weren't conservatives, and conservative is also a synonym for right wing.

You could probably, fairly accurately, describe them as millenarian, authoritarian, racial supremacist, progressive, state corporatist nationalists. Trying to fit such a group into a facile left/right dichotomy is antithetical to understanding and only serves the purpose of facilitating 'No YOU are the Nazis' style polemics.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Only if you assume, in a highly facile manner, that there have only been 2 economic systems than have existed throughout human history and that everything that happened in these societies is a direct consequence of the economic system.

To do this though, you need to claim that pre-modern nomadic tribes were 'capitalists' in the modern sense which is pretty ridiculous.

Also, given by your criteria we have a very small number of communist states (maybe 1% of human societies) and a massive number of 'capitalist' ones (the other 99%) from throughout human history, we still see this tiny number of communist states appearing disproportionately highly in this list.

Most of these societies listed involve some form of class hierarchy and accumulation of gold/precious metals and some form of inheritance of wealth/power. It would also involve a few people living at the very top, usually in some luxurious palace while the majority live in sub-standard conditions.

To me, that's sufficient to associate it with the worst elements of capitalism for the purposes of this discussion, even if you want to pedantically go over technicalities and claim "well, that's not a true Scotsman."

A lot of nomadic societies didn't even understand the concept of "ownership." It was totally alien to them. They didn't believe one could own the land anymore than one could own the sky, the sun, or the moon. As the saying goes - "the land doesn't belong to us, we belong to the land."

Again you are projecting contemporary expectations back into the past. Even 70 or so years ago nationalism and imperialism were very much also supported by left wing parties throughout Europe. Imperialism had a progressive mission after all.

Trying to fit everything into right v left, communism v capitalism is an impediment to thought and can only ever result in a misrepresentation of human history.

Perhaps, although one should also take all of this into context of how these discussions have generally been presented to the Western masses.

If you look at the line of argumentation used by most advocates of capitalism (a few here in this forum), you'll see the same recurring patterns.

- "Hey, don't you think we should have more affordable housing?"
- "No, that's communism, and communism leads to famine, mass murder, and gulags. Look at the SU, NK, etc."

- "Well, what about an extra dime in wages for working people?"
- "No, that's communism, and communism leads to famine, mass murder, and gulags. Look at the SU, NK, etc."

- "What about a single-payer healthcare system?"
- "No, that's communism, and communism leads to famine, mass murder, and gulags. Look at the SU, NK, etc."

- "How about an extra cookie at lunch?"
- "No, that's communism, and communism leads to famine, mass murder, and gulags. Look at the SU, NK, etc."

It's the same argument over and over and over again. What leftists may propose in the United States has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happened in the USSR or PRC, but that doesn't stop capitalist ideologues from constantly bringing it up in response to any and all proposals to make life better for the common people.

It's the same mentality which brought about McCarthyism, and it also duped Americans into believing that people like Arbenz of Guatemala, Allende of Chile, or Mosaddegh of Iran were "communists," when nothing was further from the truth.
 
Most of these societies listed involve some form of class hierarchy and accumulation of gold/precious metals and some form of inheritance of wealth/power. It would also involve a few people living at the very top, usually in some luxurious palace while the majority live in sub-standard conditions.

To me, that's sufficient to associate it with the worst elements of capitalism for the purposes of this discussion, even if you want to pedantically go over technicalities and claim "well, that's not a true Scotsman."

So did the Marxist ones.

Hunter gatherer societies accumulated stuff, and the chief's son often became chief, do you think this makes them capitalist too?

It's quite odd to insist that pre-modern nomadic societies and feudalism were not capitalist = "Pedantically going over technicalities". Acknowledging the widely accepted fact that the definition of capitalism isn't simply "not communism" is hardly pointless quibbling.

Is it "no true Scotsman" to identify a Buddhist as not being a Salafi-jihadist even though they are both 'religious', or just a simple acknowledgement that they are 2 different things?

Seems many people mainly see the past as a prop to be used in order to make a point about their own 21st C political ideology.

A lot of nomadic societies didn't even understand the concept of "ownership." It was totally alien to them. They didn't believe one could own the land anymore than one could own the sky, the sun, or the moon. As the saying goes - "the land doesn't belong to us, we belong to the land."

This is what I was getting at, does it not seem a bit incongruous to you to on one hand acknowledge that a society that didn't even understand the concept of ownership, and then to also insist that they should be meaningfully viewed as capitalist?

Perhaps, although one should also take all of this into context of how these discussions have generally been presented to the Western masses.

If you look at the line of argumentation used by most advocates of capitalism (a few here in this forum), you'll see the same recurring patterns.

- "Hey, don't you think we should have more affordable housing?"
- "No, that's communism, and communism leads to famine, mass murder, and gulags. Look at the SU, NK, etc."

- "Well, what about an extra dime in wages for working people?"
- "No, that's communism, and communism leads to famine, mass murder, and gulags. Look at the SU, NK, etc."

- "What about a single-payer healthcare system?"
- "No, that's communism, and communism leads to famine, mass murder, and gulags. Look at the SU, NK, etc."

- "How about an extra cookie at lunch?"
- "No, that's communism, and communism leads to famine, mass murder, and gulags. Look at the SU, NK, etc."

It's the same argument over and over and over again. What leftists may propose in the United States has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happened in the USSR or PRC, but that doesn't stop capitalist ideologues from constantly bringing it up in response to any and all proposals to make life better for the common people.

It's the same mentality which brought about McCarthyism, and it also duped Americans into believing that people like Arbenz of Guatemala, Allende of Chile, or Mosaddegh of Iran were "communists," when nothing was further from the truth.

American masses perhaps, not western masses. America is a very anomalous nation in these sort of things for numerous historical reasons.

In general though, using what ideologues say as the baseline for general discussion is not really productive.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So did the Marxist ones.

Hunter gatherer societies accumulated stuff, and the chief's son often became chief, do you think this makes them capitalist too?

I don't recall that any hunter gatherer societies made the list in question. But to answer your question, it would depend on what they're accumulating and for what purpose. If they're just storing food for survival, that's a far different mindset than those who accumulated gold just because they wanted gold. If we're talking about different variations on the same theme of "gold, glory, and god," then I would say it's in the same ballpark as capitalism.

It's quite odd to insist that pre-modern nomadic societies and feudalism were not capitalist = "Pedantically going over technicalities". Acknowledging the widely accepted fact that the definition of capitalism isn't simply "not communism" is hardly pointless quibbling.

Is it "no true Scotsman" to identify a Buddhist as not being a Salafi-jihadist even though they are both 'religious', or just a simple acknowledgement that they are 2 different things?

Seems many people mainly see the past as a prop to be used in order to make a point about their own 21st C political ideology.

Exactly, that's the point I've been making all along. Thank you for being one of the few commenters here who has actually gotten it.

We use all kinds of historical "props" to justify our governmental policies and practices in the present day. Hitler is one of the most commonly used props, such as in this thread which is a slam against socialism. Stalin and Mao are also used as props in the same basic argument.

The point is, if people are going to use that and accept it as a valid line of argumentation, then I can't see why they would protest about my line of argumentation in this instance.

This is what I was getting at, does it not seem a bit incongruous to you to on one hand acknowledge that a society that didn't even understand the concept of ownership, and then to also insist that they should be meaningfully viewed as capitalist?

The societies I mentioned above most definitely understood the concept of ownership. Just like with the Mongols. The Great Khan told traders that the Silk Road was on "my land," and if you wish to use it, you have to pay me for the privilege. That's no less capitalistic than my ISP charging me a fee every month for using "their property."

American masses perhaps, not western masses. America is a very anomalous nation in these sort of things for numerous historical reasons.

In general though, using what ideologues say as the baseline for general discussion is not really productive.

I suppose it would depend on what the actual discussion is about.

If we want to talk about all the sins and atrocities of humanity, we can talk about that.

If we want to compare and contrast different ideologies, political systems, and economic systems - past and present - then we can probably get into that as well.

And yes, as I was born and raised in America, I was raised and conditioned to believe in the exact same mindset - although that was tempered somewhat by the conflicting views and attitudes which reached a crescendo in the 1960s and 70s.

But by Reagan in the 1980s, we were mostly back to the old "evil empire" stuff. And the narrative has gotten more and more absurd with each passing decade. Meanwhile, the rich keep getting richer, and the poor keep getting poorer.

Over the years, I've encountered more than a few of these smug, self-absorbed "capitalists" who crow on and on about how great our system is - and respond to any criticism or proposal for reform by trotting out Stalin and Mao (as "props" like you mentioned above).

They refuse to listen, and the fact is, they don't really have to. They won the Cold War, and in their eyes, capitalism has prevailed. So, they've got the bragging rights for now, and they can be just as irrational and silly as they want to be.

It's just that sometimes it feels like talking to a parrot, so I try to throw a few curves here and there just to see if I can break them out of "parrot" mode and get one of them to talk seriously.
 
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