Someone present to me an innovative religious idea in the Koran

[firedragon]

Let's say just for arguments sake you're right and I'm wrong about . Those behaviors are still covered in the NT which leads me back my original qualm with the Koran, that to my knowledge, it doesn't present one revolutionary insight on how to live ones live morally speaking. It copies it's best material from previous sources. It's new 'insights' are that Mohammed is Allahs prophet and everyone should listen to him over all other God messengers. Also it say Jesus wasn't crucified. This represents the chief 'contribution' to religious thinking based on what I've seen

It does, just that you don't know.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I can think of one innovation of Islam. It permitted its founder to marry a 7 year old girl and insist its followers agree that was a good thing. That's innovative. I can't think of another religion that did that.

Actually it was a brilliant insight. They still marry underage little girls over there. Mohammed started his own trend in his culture.

That's a misunderstanding, and unfortunately taken by some weak heart-ed Muslims as something good to do. Islam did not come up with that, people of all beliefs (and non beliefs) thru out history did this. It may be true that Muhammad had one of his wives a 9 year old (there are controversies actually), but that does not mean anything. Just because Muhammad did it, it does not mean it is something to follow. What we follow of Muhammad is the habits he lived with, and doing something once and never again is far from that. Marriage is a social practice, not just religious. It is also wrong to assume ill of the nature of that marriage, since that specific wife loved Muhammad so much that she reported his Hadeeth along with other things Islamic history talks about.

Also please keep in mind that this thread is about innovations found in the Quran and this point is not part of the Quran. Getting out of this requirement in further posts is considered going off-topic, and that's against the rules, unless it is proven it is mentioned in the Quran in the reply. Your are more than welcome to start this discussion in a separate thread so this one can take its course, and I'm sure Muslims of RF will respect that, as long as it is discussed in the right manner. We're here to share beliefs and socialize at the same time. Nothing is better than having that in a good an welcoming spirit. Bless you both.

 

[Shaul]

That's a misunderstanding, and unfortunately taken by some weak heart-ed Muslims as something good to do. Islam did not come up with that, people of all beliefs (and non beliefs) thru out history did this. It may be true that Muhammad had one of his wives a 9 year old (there are controversies actually), but that does not mean anything. Just because Muhammad did it, it does not mean it is something to follow. What we follow of Muhammad is the habits he lived with, and doing something once and never again is far from that. Marriage is a social practice, not just religious. It is also wrong to assume ill of the nature of that marriage, since that specific wife loved Muhammad so much that she reported his Hadeeth along with other things Islamic history talks about.

Also please keep in mind that this thread is about innovations found in the Quran and this point is not part of the Quran. Getting out of this requirement in further posts is considered going off-topic, and that's against the rules, unless it is proven it is mentioned in the Quran in the reply. Your are more than welcome to start this discussion in a separate thread so this one can take its course, and I'm sure Muslims of RF will respect that, as long as it is discussed in the right manner. We're here to share beliefs and socialize at the same time. Nothing is better than having that in a good an welcoming spirit. Bless you both.

Surah 65:4 of the Quran establishes that a Muslim can marry a prepubescent girl.

It is in the Quran.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Surah 65:4 of the Quran establishes that a Muslim can marry a prepubescent girl.

It is in the Quran.

I'm an Arab and just double checked that verse in its original language; Arabic, (a verse which I actually know but couldn't remember clearly).

It does not say that a Muslim can marry a prepubescent girl. It just forbids divorce in some cases.

Could you please link me to the source you're looking at? It is mistranslated and could be from an anti-Islam source.

 

[Lyndon]

While we're on the topic, how about coming up with some texts from Jewish sources that say you can't marry a 10 year old.

 

[firedragon]

Surah 65:4 of the Quran establishes that a Muslim can marry a prepubescent girl.

It is in the Quran.

As for those who have reached menopause from your women, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months—as well as for those who did not menstruate. And those who are already pregnant, their interim is until they give birth. And anyone who reverences God, He makes his matters easy for him. - 65:4

 

[FearGod]

I'm talking about something that innovates the way we live our lives. The teachings of Jesus represent an innovation of the Old Testament. For instance where the OT preached 'an eye for and eye' Jesus preached to turn the other cheek. He offered the beatitudes 'blesses are the poor in spirit, blessed are the meek, etc'. He condemned divorce for any reason other than sexual immorality. He said never to swear an oath. These were all things not found in the Old Testament.


Muslims claim the Koran to be a miraculous book. I've heard the rhyming scheme is some of the evidence of this. I'm not impressed with rhyming. I'm impressed with ideas. I find the Koran to be a repetitive incoherent book. I can't even make it all the way through it becaus the lack of a connecting thread through what I've read makes it come across as a bunch of random thoughts just strung together. The best parts of it seem to be plagiarized from the Bible. My impression from what I've read is that it seems more like the Old Testament than the new in terms of instruction on how to live ones life. If that's the case, then it represents a regression in religious thinking. Can somebody provide me with one idea in the Koran, not already found in the Bible, that teaches people how to live better lives

Do you think that the Christians are following Jesus teachings?

 

[firedragon]

While we're on the topic, how about coming up with some texts from Jewish sources that say you can't marry a 10 year old.

Check Rashis commentary on Genesis 25:20.

forty years old: For when Abraham came from Mount Moriah, he was informed that Rebecca had been born. Isaac was then thirty-seven years old, for at that time Sarah died, and from the time that Isaac was born until the “Binding” [of Isaac], when Sarah died, were thirty-seven years, for she was ninety years old when Isaac was born, and one hundred and twenty-seven when she died, as it is stated (above 23:1): “The life of Sarah was [a hundred and twenty seven years.”] This makes Isaac thirty-seven years old, and at that time, Rebecca was born. He waited for her until she would be fit for marital relations-three years-and then married her. — [From Gen. Rabbah 57:1;

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Let's say just for arguments sake you're right and I'm wrong about . Those behaviors are still covered in the NT which leads me back my original qualm with the Koran, that to my knowledge, it doesn't present one revolutionary insight on how to live ones live morally speaking. It copies it's best material from previous sources. It's new 'insights' are that Mohammed is Allahs prophet and everyone should listen to him over all other God messengers. Also it say Jesus wasn't crucified. This represents the chief 'contribution' to religious thinking based on what I've seen

The idea that Jesus was not crucified is not an innovation of the Qur'aan. Some of the Gnostics in earlier times also believed that Jesus was not crucified. The author of the Second Treatise of the Great Seth (generally considered to date to the 3rd century CE) was one such Gnostic.

To look for innovation in the Qur'aan is to miss the point of the Qur'aan. The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws) did not come with a new religion. The God/dess sent Muhammad (saws) with the Qur'aan to bring people who had strayed very far from Her Service back to Her Service.

 

[Sabour]

Can somebody provide me with one idea in the Koran, not already found in the Bible, that teaches people how to live better lives

Belief and doing good deeds takes us to heaven ( by God's mercy).

It makes us live our lives better by knowing that we will be held accountable for our actions and that they matter. Heaven wouldn't be granted by a belief only. ( I believe that this is mentioned in the bible but don't know if you believe in it or believe that you would be saved because Jesus peace be upon him died on the cross)

 

[idav]

So we've established that while the Koran adds some stuff on economics it basically takes us back to Old Testament times in terms of morality. There isn't one idea that I've heard on morality that isn't covered time and again in the Old Testament

Why yes the muslim religion does happen to be Abrahamic in origin. I'm sure your aware they argue about who has the true line to Abraham.

Abraham has a kid with a milk maid and caused a war for the next thousands of years, all from lack of faith.

 

[Shaul]

Check Rashis commentary on Genesis 25:20.

forty years old: For when Abraham came from Mount Moriah, he was informed that Rebecca had been born. Isaac was then thirty-seven years old, for at that time Sarah died, and from the time that Isaac was born until the “Binding” [of Isaac], when Sarah died, were thirty-seven years, for she was ninety years old when Isaac was born, and one hundred and twenty-seven when she died, as it is stated (above 23:1): “The life of Sarah was [a hundred and twenty seven years.”] This makes Isaac thirty-seven years old, and at that time, Rebecca was born. He waited for her until she would be fit for marital relations-three years-and then married her. — [From Gen. Rabbah 57:1;

Here is Rashi's commentary from Rabbah Genesis(Beresheit):
בן ארבעים שנה: שהרי כשבא אברהם מהר המוריה נתבשר שנולדה רבקה, ויצחק היה בן שלשים ושבע שנה, שהרי בו בפרק מתה שרה, ומשנולד יצחק עד העקידה שמתה שרה שלושים ושבע שנה, ובת תשעים היתה כשנולד יצחק, ובת מאה עשרים ושבע כשמתה, שנאמר (כג א) ויהיו חיי שרה וגו', הרי ליצחק שלושים ושבע שנים
ובו בפרק נולדה רבקה, המתין לה עד שתהא ראויה לביאה שלש שנים ונשאה

You are misunderstanding Rashi's commentary. It doesn't say that Rebekah was born simultaneously to when Sarah died. It says that she had been born when Sarah died. In other words Rebekah had been born sometime before Sarah died. Then three years after Sarah died Isaac married her. A simple reading of the Torah portion (Genesis 24) would show you how ridiculous the interpretation you gave is. In it Abraham's servant goes seeking a bride for Isaac. He encounters Rebekah at a well. He asks her to draw water for him and his animals. She agrees and does. After that she is asked if she wants to leave her home and go and marry Isaac. She does and they travel the long journey back to Canaan. These are not the doings of someone less than three years old. Other Jewish sources(see Tosafot, Yevamot 61b) tell us that Rebekah's age when she married Isaac was 14.

It seems like you took this from an anti-Jewish web site. Which is strange since you so often accuse others of taking things from "anti-Muslim" sites.

Also I hardly think that you genuinely accept Rashi as an authority. But if you do, he has some interesting comments with respect to Islam.

Shalom

 

[Shaul]

As for those who have reached menopause from your women, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months—as well as for those who did not menstruate. And those who are already pregnant, their interim is until they give birth. And anyone who reverences God, He makes his matters easy for him. - 65:4

The "those who do not menstruate" is distinct from those who have reached menopause. It includes those that do not menstruate for all reasons. It includes those that have reached menopause but also includes those whoe have a medical condition or (importantly) and prepubescent. This is shown by how this terminology is used elsewhere in the Quran. Since this passage deals with divorce, this shows how a prepubescent girl is treated during a divorce.p, which presupposes that she is married. The Quran allows for a prepubescent girl can be married.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

It does, just that you don't know.

I will be perfectly honest. I don't think the Koran is even intelligently written. I think it's incoherence is passed off as profoundness. I think if a professor was grading it and they didn't know it was a holy book revered by like a billion people they would give it a D or an F. Say what you what about the Bible, call it's writers deluded if you will, at least they were intelligent and knew how to communicate. I ponder what it even says about the human intellect that this book can be accepted by a billion people, many of whom are extremely intelligent.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

The Quran does not claim to have innovated anything. It only claims to confirm monotheism and the same millat ibrahim, the theology of Abraham. And that all messengers the same for human beings etc etc.

Nevertheless, if you want to look at it the way the OP has explained, you can look at the mans gift to the woman at marriage as an innovation.

Oh it sounds so lame but so let it be.

How exactly did mohammed confirm anything? He went into a cave and claims he heard and angel and that we all had to just take his word for it. Jesus and his disciples used signs and wonders along with the fact that there were witness to his resurrection. Now I'm not arguing that actually happened. I'm just saying that's how you confirm something.

 

[firedragon]

Here is Rashi's commentary from Rabbah Genesis(Beresheit):
בן ארבעים שנה: שהרי כשבא אברהם מהר המוריה נתבשר שנולדה רבקה, ויצחק היה בן שלשים ושבע שנה, שהרי בו בפרק מתה שרה, ומשנולד יצחק עד העקידה שמתה שרה שלושים ושבע שנה, ובת תשעים היתה כשנולד יצחק, ובת מאה עשרים ושבע כשמתה, שנאמר (כג א) ויהיו חיי שרה וגו', הרי ליצחק שלושים ושבע שנים
ובו בפרק נולדה רבקה, המתין לה עד שתהא ראויה לביאה שלש שנים ונשאה

You are misunderstanding Rashi's commentary. It doesn't say that Rebekah was born simultaneously to when Sarah died. It says that she had been born when Sarah died. In other words Rebekah had been born sometime before Sarah died. Then three years after Sarah died Isaac married her. A simple reading of the Torah portion (Genesis 24) would show you how ridiculous the interpretation you gave is. In it Abraham's servant goes seeking a bride for Isaac. He encounters Rebekah at a well. He asks her to draw water for him and his animals. She agrees and does. After that she is asked if she wants to leave her home and go and marry Isaac. She does and they travel the long journey back to Canaan. These are not the doings of someone less than three years old. Other Jewish sources(see Tosafot, Yevamot 61b) tell us that Rebekah's age when she married Isaac was 14.

It seems like you took this from an anti-Jewish web site. Which is strange since you so often accuse others of taking things from "anti-Muslim" sites.

Also I hardly think that you genuinely accept Rashi as an authority. But if you do, he has some interesting comments with respect to Islam.

Shalom

Nope. I have so far never quoted anything from any anti anything, although I see that happening a huge lot with those who wish to be anti Islam or whatever.

Nevertheless, I am not an expert on modern Judaism and its scholarship. And I certainly believe that Judaism never propounds marriage to a kid. This is for the sake of discussion.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

How exactly did mohammed confirm anything?

In the Quran. You can live in your cave story mate, but I was speaking of the Quran.

 

[firedragon]

I will be perfectly honest. I don't think the Koran is even intelligently written. I think it's incoherence is passed off as profoundness. I think if a professor was grading it and they didn't know it was a holy book revered by like a billion people they would give it a D or an F. Say what you what about the Bible, call it's writers deluded if you will, at least they were intelligent and knew how to communicate. I ponder what it even says about the human intellect that this book can be accepted by a billion people, many of whom are extremely intelligent.

Well. You have a right to your view. Though its completely nonsensical and bias with no proof by a person who doesnt know what he is talking about.

 

[firedragon]

The "those who do not menstruate" is distinct from those who have reached menopause. It includes those that do not menstruate for all reasons. It includes those that have reached menopause but also includes those whoe have a medical condition or (importantly) and prepubescent. This is shown by how this terminology is used elsewhere in the Quran. Since this passage deals with divorce, this shows how a prepubescent girl is treated during a divorce.p, which presupposes that she is married. The Quran allows for a prepubescent girl can be married.

Yaisna Minal Maheedhi. A phrase for menopause. It means literally despaired (Yaisna). Yaisna means deprived, despaired, given up. You have to have menstruation in the first place for it to seize. And this is speaking about divorce. Not about marriage. About a three month waiting period after separation etc.

THis is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Also, its a blatant lie.

Arabic doesnt have one word for every word in English. And English does not have one word for every word in Arabic. Two different languages have to be understood in two different ways.

I would like to see which idiot says this is talking about Prepubescent girls.

Absurd.

 

[Gharib]

I think I answered the question in the OP. Why did my answer get ignored?