=Something Bad Jesus Did=

[free spirit]

That verse is neither intolerant nor racist. Sure, it's somewhat exclusive, but that doesn't mean it's bad, or wrong. Everything has a time and a place... and when it comes to the Pesach offering, it's something unique and special for the children of Israel as a reminder of being taken out of Egypt.

If you choose to view that as being intolerant or racist, that's truly unfortunate. You're entitled to your opinion, but I would say you're missing the mark.

The destruction of Amalek wasn't because the Jews figured they had it coming to them because Jews are better than Amalekites... it wasn't because they were gentiles... it was because of what Amalek did to Israel when Israel was leaving Egypt... attacking the weak and the elderly. If Exodus 17:16 was racist because of what God commanded Israel to do to Amalek... you might as well say all of Exodus is racist because of what God did to the Egyptians as well.

A specific reason is given, having to do with those nations cursing Israel. To chalk this up to racism is incorrect. Consider the next passage:

You shall not reject an Edomite, for he is your brother; you shall not reject an Egyptian, for you were a sojourner in his land.

If Israel were nothing but a bunch of ethnocentric bigots, this line sure seems out of place.


Wives from idolatrous nations caused the king to sin. This is a statement of fact, not meant to malaign foreigners... it was a specific warning against marrying women the bible had previously prohibited Jews from marrying, i.e. Moabites. The nations mentioned were specifically those who would try to lead Israel astray.

You don't hang out with people who generally mean harm to you and your people. This is neither a racist nor intolerant position.


Again... consider what's actually being spoken of. The Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, and the Moabites. All nations hostile towards Israel. The Girga****es were one of the nations that inhabited the land... but they made peace with Israel.

Not legitimately. They might be used by people with a poor understanding of the text, with an agenda to paint Israel as being racist... but nobody who takes an honest, impartial view can use it to support racism.

I mean I could point to the golden rule spoken by Jesus.. do unto others as you would have done unto you... and cite selfishness. It's all about how you want people to treat YOU. Of course that misses the mark... but if I used it, I'm sure you'd tell me exactly why the golden rule is not the epitome of selfishness.

I don't trust the "new testament" to highlight the cultural standards of the time. It is my position that either the characters or the authors purposely sought to malign the Jews to establish Christianity, therefore had to fraudulently make the pharisees the epitome of hypocrisy, Israel the epitome of rebelliousness, and the average Jew the epitmoe of ethnocentric bigotry.



[FONT=TREBUCHET, ARIAL, HELVETICA][FONT=TREBUCHET, ARIAL, HELVETICA]The Jewish nation is often referred to as "the Chosen People."[/FONT]


[FONT=TREBUCHET, ARIAL, HELVETICA]Many people (including Jews) are uncomfortable with this idea. They perceive the concept of a "Chosen People" as racist and mindful of the Nazi concept of a supreme "Aryan" nation. It appears to contradict the accepted Western ideal of all people being equal before God.[/FONT]


[FONT=TREBUCHET, ARIAL, HELVETICA]Is the Jewish concept of choseness racist?[/FONT]


[FONT=TREBUCHET, ARIAL, HELVETICA]When the Torah refers to the Jewish people as "chosen," it is not in any way asserting that Jews are racially superior. Americans, Russians, Europeans, Asians and Ethiopians are all part of the Jewish people. It is impossible to define choseness as anything related to race, since Jews are racially diverse. [/FONT]


[FONT=TREBUCHET, ARIAL, HELVETICA]Yet while the term "Chosen People" (Am Nivchar) does not mean racially superior, choseness does imply a special uniqueness. [/FONT]


[FONT=TREBUCHET, ARIAL, HELVETICA]What is this uniqueness?[/FONT]


[FONT=TREBUCHET, ARIAL, HELVETICA]Historically, it goes back to Abraham. Abraham lived in a world steeped in idolatry, which he concluded was contradicted by the reality of design in nature. [/FONT]





So Abraham came to a belief in God, and took upon himself the mission of teaching others of the monotheistic ideal. Abraham was even willing to suffer persecution for his beliefs. After years of enormous effort, dedication and a willingness to accept the responsibility to be God's representative in this world, God chose Abraham and his descendents to be the teachers of this monotheistic message.
In other words it is not so much that God chose the Jews; it is more accurate that the Jews (through Abraham) chose God.


Choseness was not part of God's "original plan." Initially all of humanity was to serve the role of God's messengers, but after the fall of Adam, humanity lost that privilege, and it was open for grabs. Only Abraham chose to take the mantel. If others would have (and they were offered the choice), they too would have joined in this special covenant which was sealed upon the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai.


If a privilege is offered to everyone willing to pay the necessary price, nobody can protest that those willing to make the extra effort are being shown favoritism. For example: It is reasonable that an employee who agrees to work overtime, attend training seminars, and manage special projects, should be entitled to a performance bonus -- particularly if each employee was given the same opportunity.


The essence of being chosen means responsibility. It is a responsibility to change the world -- not by converting everyone to Judaism, but by living as a model community upheld by ethics, morals and beliefs of one God. In that way, we can influence the rest of mankind, a "light unto the nations" (Isaiah 42:6).

[SIZE=+1]Judaism is Universal[/SIZE]
Further, Judaism is not exclusionary. A human being need not to be Jewish to reach a high spiritual level. Enoch "walked with God," and Noah had quite a high level of relationship, though neither were Jewish. Our tradition is that all of the 70 nations must function together and play an integral part in that "being" called humanity.


According to Judaism (Talmud - Sanhedrin 58b), any person can achieve a place in the World to Come by faithfully observing the seven basic laws of humanity. These seven laws are named the "Laws of Noah," since all humans are descended from Noah:

1) Do not murder.
2) Do not steal.
3) Do not worship false gods.
4) Do not be sexually immoral.
5) Do not eat the limb of an animal before it is killed.
6) Do not curse God.
7) Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.
​

[/FONT][FONT=TREBUCHET, ARIAL, HELVETICA]Torah is for all humanity. King Solomon built the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, he specifically asked God to heed the prayer of non-Jews who come to the Temple (1-Kings 8:41-43). The Temple was the universal center of spirituality, which the prophet Isaiah referred to as a "house of prayer for all nations." Non-Jews were welcome to bring offerings to the Temple as well. In fact, the service in the Holy Temple during the week of Sukkot featured a total of 70 bull offerings, corresponding to each of the 70 nations of the world. In fact, the Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much they were benefiting from the Temple, they never would have destroyed it![/FONT]
[FONT=TREBUCHET, ARIAL, HELVETICA]Most other religions say that non-believers are condemned to eternal damnation. Even the calendar systems of Christianity and Islam reflect an exclusionary philosophy; each begins with the birth of their respective religion. The Jewish calendar, on the other hand, begins with the creation of Adam, the first man, teaching us the intrinsic value of every human, even though the Jewish religion was not yet born. [/FONT]


[FONT=TREBUCHET, ARIAL, HELVETICA]For this reason, Jews do not proselytize in search of converts. One can still merit a place in heaven, no conversion necessary.[/FONT]

The Chosen People

Poisen
Your Jewish religion has even forgot the purpose of why they were chosen, please let me remind you, they were chosen to bring into the world the son of God, you call him the Messiah. The law and all the other blessings are the by products of that one principal mission, He is the light of the world, and not the Hebrews, however he was a Hebrew.
Do you realy believe that the Jews are a "light unto the nations"
but you should know that God shows no partiality.
And if you are a light unto the nations, right now your light is in durkness, or hasn't the light been switched on yet.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Thief here....
So all of this was sparked by a complaint over what the Carpenter said to a woman...as she pleaded for relief of her ailing child.

What do you argue, should I point out that incident at the temple?

See it clearly...as if you were there....

He walks into the temple with a makeshift whip in hand.
Makes the announcement....GET OUT!

Anyone who hesitates is beaten.
He drives them as if cattle.
He persists until the temple is empty...

Was this a bad thing?
How does this compare to the supposed insult aimed at that poor woman?

The woman being insulted rates far worse.

I mean, there are things to consider... at the time, the Temple issue caused injury to more people, disrupted the observance of biblical obligations for countless thousands... desecrating the temple, the laws violated by driving out the cattle... don't get me wrong, the temple incident was horrible unholy act....

But the incident with the poor woman who wanted to help her daughter... that story has fueled a lot of confusion, intolerance, anger, and hatred against Jews because of a fraudulent depiction of how Jews treat non-Jews.

The fact is, because of this story, to this very day, there are non-Jews convinced that the Hebrew word for non-Jew is similar or the same to the word used for "dog". This horrific slanderous assault against the character of Judaism as a whole has been one that brought us nothing but suffering for the past 2000 years.

Jesus, or at least whoever wrote his dialogue, has put in a great deal of effort to depict the Jews as ethnocentric bigots, bullies, hypocrites, and thugs. And in doing so, has managed to take events that Jews find horrific, humiliating, violations of God's law, desecration of God's name... and made them appear justified, either because it defied God's law, or because they appeared to correct an attitude or behavior that they never would have had to begin with.


But then, "Because Jesus said so" seems to be enough to let ignorant people believe the worst about the Jews.

 

[free spirit]

The woman being insulted rates far worse.

I mean, there are things to consider... at the time, the Temple issue caused injury to more people, disrupted the observance of biblical obligations for countless thousands... desecrating the temple, the laws violated by driving out the cattle... don't get me wrong, the temple incident was horrible unholy act....

But the incident with the poor woman who wanted to help her daughter... that story has fueled a lot of confusion, intolerance, anger, and hatred against Jews because of a fraudulent depiction of how Jews treat non-Jews.

The fact is, because of this story, to this very day, there are non-Jews convinced that the Hebrew word for non-Jew is similar or the same to the word used for "dog". This horrific slanderous assault against the character of Judaism as a whole has been one that brought us nothing but suffering for the past 2000 years.

Jesus, or at least whoever wrote his dialogue, has put in a great deal of effort to depict the Jews as ethnocentric bigots, bullies, hypocrites, and thugs. And in doing so, has managed to take events that Jews find horrific, humiliating, violations of God's law, desecration of God's name... and made them appear justified, either because it defied God's law, or because they appeared to correct an attitude or behavior that they never would have had to begin with.


But then, "Because Jesus said so" seems to be enough to let ignorant people believe the worst about the Jews.

"If you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the law and boast in God, and know his will, and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the law, and are confident that tyou yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the law the embodiment of knowledgr and of the truth, you therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? you who preach that one should not steal do you steal? You who say that one should no commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law, through your breaking the law you dishonor God. FOR THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU, just as it is written.

 

[Ben Masada]

Oh, I err not. Here, Matthew wants us to identify with the woman, who was also marginalized and yet was persistent in her faith, just as Matthew's community was.
Sorry to disappoint you. It falls perfectly within the scheme of Matthew's five great sermons, all of which seek to identify the Church as the true Israel.

The guy who wrote Matthew learned very well his lesson of Replacement Theology with Paul. Do you need a better evidence that he was a disciple of Paul's?

 

[Ben Masada]

Enlighten me what is his name?

Ben: Israel is his name.


Read the first two chapters of ACTS you may learn something about this Jew named Jesus, for in them you will find written of him. "therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Ben: That speech in Acts 2 was never delivered. It was written by Luke but never delivered. He wrote it only to document the Church. If you read Acts 2:14 without blinders, you might see that no Jew would ever introduce himself to an audience of Jews by, "You who are Jews, indeed all of you staying in Jerusalem..." Besides, Peter could have never delivered such a speech because he was a Nazarene Jew and not an anti-Semite to falsely accuse the Jews of having crucified Jesus when he knew very well that the Romans had been the ones.

for it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says; THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE THINE ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR THY FEET. Therefore let all the house of israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ - this Jesus whom you crucified

Ben: I would suggest to you to read Psalm 110:1 with a mind bent to the truth and think. Many Psalms were written to be chanted in the Temple by the choir of Levites. That Psalm was originally written thus, "The Lord said to me , Sit at My right hand till I make your enemies your footstood." An adaptation was in order because it would be too awkward for the Levites to sing it, "The Lord said to me..." Therefore, it was agreed to sing that Psalm as follows: "The Lord (God) said to my Lord (David), sit at My right hand till I make your enemies your footstool."



You are misinterpreting the scriptures, it is obvious that you see what you want to see.

Ben: Who is talking, Freespirit? No wonder! Give me an example of someone who does not see what he or she wants to see, you?

But Isaiah 53 is portraying a man, he is also mentioned in PSALM 22, who is suffering for the atonement of all of humanity, one man and not one state,

Ben: Who is speaking about the State? Obviously, you are. Isaiah means Israel, the People and not Israel the State. And that's exactly what I mean too. And where do you see Jesus in Isaiah 53 or Psalm 22? See now what I mean? You see only what you want to see.

and from that one man cames a new people, a new nation, that has no land, a new israel, the bride of Christ, for we read in 2 Peter 2 - 6 to 11, "For this is contained in scriptures; Behold I LAI IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER STONE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Ben: The precious stone laid in Zion is the remnant of Judah when they returned from exile in Babylon.

This precious value, then is for you who believe. but for those who disbelieve, THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECOME THE VERY CORNER STONE. AND A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE.

Ben: That's exactly what Israel is for the other nations.

For they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the exellences of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts, which wage war agains the soul."

Ben: That's a good statement for Replacement Theology. Congratulations!

 

[sojourner]

The guy who wrote Matthew learned very well his lesson of Replacement Theology with Paul. Do you need a better evidence that he was a disciple of Paul's?

One HUGE problem here: Matthew didn't know Paul.
:no: :sorry1:

 

[Ben Masada]

One HUGE problem here: Matthew didn't know Paul.
:no: :sorry1:

You mean the guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew? Most definitely he was a disciple of Paul's in his youth and wrote that gospel in his old age. And he definitely was a Greek man like Paul. Too much Hellenism in that gospel.

 

[AK4]

Ben: I would suggest to you to read Psalm 110:1 with a mind bent to the truth and think. Many Psalms were written to be chanted in the Temple by the choir of Levites. That Psalm was originally written thus, "The Lord said to me , Sit at My right hand till I make your enemies your footstood." An adaptation was in order because it would be too awkward for the Levites to sing it, "The Lord said to me..." Therefore, it was agreed to sing that Psalm as follows: "The Lord (God) said to my Lord (David), sit at My right hand till I make your enemies your footstool."

Let me stroke your ego for a sec ben. For once you are right, that is the Lord speaking to David. Yet this passage is key into understanding who Jesus is.

Heres a little help for you even though you wont see it

Jesus says "before Abraham was, I AM"

He also says "no one has seen God at ANYTIME. You have niether seen His shape or heard His voice"

Now back up to Ps 110- "The Lord (God) said to my Lord (David),..."

And remember Moses and others seen His shape and heard God speaking. How can this be if Jesus says no one has seen or heard God at anytime? Is he lying or is this just another one of Pauls "tricks"?

One last clue--who does Jesus come to reveal?

I know, i know. A waste of time.:faint:

 

[sojourner]

You mean the guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew? Most definitely he was a disciple of Paul's in his youth and wrote that gospel in his old age. And he definitely was a Greek man like Paul. Too much Hellenism in that gospel.

Sorry. History and the literary indicators do not bear you out on this.

 

[Thief]

Thief here....
So apparently no one has noticed....
Jesus loved His people.

The gospels do show severe actions on His part.
But, if you read the text with a closed mind set...you will never be able to see His perspective.

He gave insult...to show how unbecoming it can be...no matter who performs it.
He taught parables aimed right at the face of the pharisees...when they needed to be silent.
And He was physically firm and forward, when faced with stubborn mind sets.

He was not understood by His own disciples.
This can be seen at the 'last supper event', as they put their swords on His table.

I see that modern day readers still have the same difficulty.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Thief here....
So apparently no one has noticed....
Jesus loved His people.

The gospels do show severe actions on His part.
But, if you read the text with a closed mind set...you will never be able to see His perspective.

He gave insult...to show how unbecoming it can be...no matter who performs it.
He taught parables aimed right at the face of the pharisees...when they needed to be silent.
And He was physically firm and forward, when faced with stubborn mind sets.

He was not understood by His own disciples.
This can be seen at the 'last supper event', as they put their swords on His table.

I see that modern day readers still have the same difficulty.

You don't cause shame and humiliation to a person in need just to prove a point or teach a lesson, no matter how wonderful a lesson it's supposed to be.

 

[Thief]

Thief here...
Some lessons cannot be dealt any other way.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Thief here...
Some lessons cannot be dealt any other way.

I disagree.


There are specific laws in the Torah... the same one Jesus said he didn't come to change... against

Humiliating anyone
Mistreating foreigners
Putting a fellow Jew to shame
Evil speech

And in this particular incident, he managed to violate all four.

This would make him a sinner at best, a heretic somewhere in the middle, or a false prophet at worst.

 

[free spirit]

To ben Masada

Enlighten me what is his name?

Ben: Israel is his name.
FS. JESUS IS HIS NAME AND HE WAS AN ISRAELITES


Read the first two chapters of ACTS you may learn something about this Jew named Jesus, for in them you will find written of him. "therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Ben: That speech in Acts 2 was never delivered. It was written by Luke but never delivered. He wrote it only to document the Church. If you read Acts 2:14 without blinders, you might see that no Jew would ever introduce himself to an audience of Jews by, "You who are Jews, indeed all of you staying in Jerusalem..." Besides, Peter could have never delivered such a speech because he was a Nazarene Jew and not an anti-Semite to falsely accuse the Jews of having crucified Jesus when he knew very well that the Romans had been the ones.
FS. I do not think that you were an eye witness to the event to be able to claim that. Jesus was not anty-semite yet he called the religious of the day ipocrites. On all accounts Pilate wanted to realise him, but the Jews objected, Jesus said to Pilate that those who had delivered him to him had the greater sin.
Beside the Jews of that day said to Pilate, "His blood be on us and on our children!"

for it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says; THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE THINE ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR THY FEET. Therefore let all the house of israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ - this Jesus whom you crucified

Ben: I would suggest to you to read Psalm 110:1 with a mind bent to the truth and think. Many Psalms were written to be chanted in the Temple by the choir of Levites. That Psalm was originally written thus, "The Lord said to me , Sit at My right hand till I make your enemies your footstood." An adaptation was in order because it would be too awkward for the Levites to sing it, "The Lord said to me..." Therefore, it was agreed to sing that Psalm as follows: "The Lord (God) said to my Lord (David), sit at My right hand till I make your enemies your footstool."
FS. David was a prophet and a sinner he has no claim to sit at the right hand of God, the sinless man Jesus was invited to sit at God's right hand.


You are misinterpreting the scriptures, it is obvious that you see what you want to see.

Ben: Who is talking, Freespirit? No wonder! Give me an example of someone who does not see what he or she wants to see, you?
FS. Yes we see what we believe to be the truth, my only chance is if you are open to reason. Look at yourselves you all still believe in the promise land as a piece of real estate conquered by death and destruction, the God of love will never do that. And if he meant it to be real estate, then you must say that he is a God with no power or intecrety, because 4000 years have past and you people are still fighting for it.

But Isaiah 53 is portraying a man, he is also mentioned in PSALM 22, who is suffering for the atonement of all of humanity, one man and not one state,

Ben: Who is speaking about the State? Obviously, you are. Isaiah means Israel, the People and not Israel the State. And that's exactly what I mean too. And where do you see Jesus in Isaiah 53 or Psalm 22? See now what I mean? You see only what you want to see.
FS. well the people form the state, the state are the people, the two are one.
well Jacob was called Israel, and those who are in the spirit are Israel, but unfortunatly in the midst of Israel you will find also the descendents of the flesh or of Esau his twin brother.
Psalm 22- 16, "For dogs have surrounded me; band of evildoers has encompassed me; they pierced my hands and my feet." The first 24 verses of Psalm do expose the suffering of a dieing man on the cross.

and from that one man cames a new people, a new nation, that has no land, a new israel, the bride of Christ, for we read in 2 Peter 2 - 6 to 11, "For this is contained in scriptures; Behold I LAI IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER STONE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Ben: The precious stone laid in Zion is the remnant of Judah when they returned from exile in Babylon.
FS. The precious stone is Jesus, and who belives in him shall not be disappointed.

This precious value, then is for you who believe. but for those who disbelieve, THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECOME THE VERY CORNER STONE. AND A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE.

Ben: That's exactly what Israel is for the other nations.
FS. The unbelieving Jews are offended by Jesus the true Israel. Which the builders (the priests of the Jews) rejected.

For they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the exellences of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts, which wage war agains the soul."

Ben: That's a good statement for Replacement Theology. Congratulations!

FS.Jesus came to reform the Jewish religion, from a religion with laws to observe which no one could observe, to the partaking of holiness through the spirit of God's Son Jesus. He was a Hebrew, an Israelit, a Jew I cannot see why you are offended by him.

 

[Thief]

Thief here..Hey Poison...
You can't rely on any scripture to rebuttal my last post.
Some people won't change until they are shamed...or beaten...etc....

Yes...Jesus was hard on some people....

 

[Poisonshady313]

Thief here..Hey Poison...
You can't rely on any scripture to rebuttal my last post.
Some people won't change until they are shamed...or beaten...etc....

Yes...Jesus was hard on some people....

And I find it somewhat insulting to suggest that the average Jew of 2000 years ago was such a rotten person that they required to be shamed or beaten. And the poor woman... a victim of what... everyone else's rottenness? He humiliated a poor innocent woman to teach the Jews a lesson that you're convinced they needed to be taught (for no other reason than the fact that the story exists, which to your mind says there MUST have been a legit reason).

the further this thread goes on, the more I'm convinced this story was fabricated purely for the effect of demonizing the Jews in order to make the newly established Christianity a more attractive alternative.

 

[Thief]

Thief here....Hey Poison...and now we digress to religious choices.
Most people believe as they do...primarily...because of location.
Born into family, community, country...the greater likelihood would be... the coincidence of your birth is that which made you...who...and what you are.

If you had been born in Brazil, there is a 95% chance...likelihood...you would be catholic.

I believe as I do... freely.
I am not actually defending any particular faith.

When I read the gospels, I kept the motivation as the desired item, sought.
It is not enough to repeat what you have been told.
Tradition and recital... mean very little.... to the angels.

 

[Ben Masada]

Let me stroke your ego for a sec ben. For once you are right, that is the Lord speaking to David. Yet this passage is key into understanding who Jesus is.

Yes, but by assumption. How about the other thousands of Jews crucified by the Romans? Isn't this passage also a key into understanding who the others were? Perhaps you think that Jesus was the only one the Romans crucified. Read Josephus.

Heres a little help for you even though you wont see it

Jesus says "before Abraham was, I AM"

That whole chapter 8 of John is a later interpolation for two reasons: First, that declaration could have never be said by a Jew. Therefore, it was not true. The second reason is that Jesus was speaking to the Jews who had believed in him. (John 8:31) How could Jesus call the Jews who had believed in him "children of the Devil?" (John 8:44) It makes no sense. So, the whole chapter is part of the 80 percent of interpolations of the NT.

He also says "no one has seen God at ANYTIME. You have niether seen His shape or heard His voice"

That's Jewish, but it cancels itself out because of the "before Abraham was, I AM."

Now back up to Ps 110- "The Lord (God) said to my Lord (David),..."

And remember Moses and others seen His shape and heard God speaking. How can this be if Jesus says no one has seen or heard God at anytime? Is he lying or is this just another one of Pauls "tricks"?

No, Jesus was not lying. If he said that, he said the truth; and it's no Paul's tricks. What Moses saw and heard was in a vision, when anyone can even see God and live. God has no shape to be seen nor voice to be heard, as we see and hear another human. God is incorporeal. Don't forget.

One last clue--who does Jesus come to reveal?

You are using the wrong time. When he came, for being part of the People of Israel, he partook of the role to manifest God's holiness in the sight of the nations. (Ezek. 20:41) The Lord shows His glory through Israel. (Isa. 44:23)

 

[Ben Masada]

To ben Masada

FS.Jesus came to reform the Jewish religion, from a religion with laws to observe which no one could observe, to the partaking of holiness through the spirit of God's Son Jesus. He was a Hebrew, an Israelit, a Jew I cannot see why you are offended by him.

So, Jesus came to reform the Jewish religion from a religion with laws to a religion without laws? No wonder! Next time you go to Court, tell the Judge that you belong in a religion without laws. Perhaps he will let you go without a sentence.

 

[sojourner]

To ben Masada

So, Jesus came to reform the Jewish religion from a religion with laws to a religion without laws? No wonder! Next time you go to Court, tell the Judge that you belong in a religion without laws. Perhaps he will let you go without a sentence.

That's not what he said. Next time you answer, how about actually addressing what is said?