=Something Bad Jesus Did=

[free spirit]

Very good! So, who of the gospel writers saw the walk and heard the talk of Jesus to have an idea about his character? You must be kidding!

Ben, Jesus Has been resurrected And his human soul has received the promise of the Holy Spirit, in fact the soul of a sinless Jew has became one with God, he his your Christ, and not only yours but the Saviour of the world, and your people of 2000 years ago has produced him, he is your inheritance. He longs to fill your heart with his presence, for true Christians do not need to go among the dead to find the living Christ, for he is alive.

 

[free spirit]

I do believe but by Reason; not by blind faith. Remember the faithful of Jim Jones? If they had rationalized instead of trusting their faith, they would not have perished so stupidly.

yes Ben but they believed in man a fullish thing to do, for man is not trustworthy, that is why we need the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ben Masada]

Yes Ben we wish to end up in the same place, and I hope we all do, But My Lord Jesus of Nazareth has become a very important signpost to show the way to the father in 1st Peter it is written;
For this is contained in scripture: Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, and he who believes in him shall not be disappointed.
This precious value then is for you who believe. But for those who disbelieve. The stone which the builders rejected, this become the very corner stone,
and. A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and a people for God’s own possession, that you may proclaim the Excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvellous light,
for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received CHRIST.
Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshy lusts, which wage war against the soul.
Keep your behaviour excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the
things in which they slander you as evildoers, they may on account of your good deeds; as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

You missed to have finished this much better if you didn't have to bring your Replacement Theology in.

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben, Jesus Has been resurrected And his human soul has received the promise of the Holy Spirit, in fact the soul of a sinless Jew has became one with God, he his your Christ, and not only yours but the Saviour of the world, and your people of 2000 years ago has produced him, he is your inheritance. He longs to fill your heart with his presence, for true Christians do not need to go among the dead to find the living Christ, for he is alive.

Jesus did not resurrect. Luke said that he was alive after his suffering on the cross. It does not mean he died, and much less that he resurrected. Now, he has been dead for about 2000 years. And you won't make him alive because of your faithful excitement. Sorry my friend, reality is hard to take sometimes.

 

[Ben Masada]

yes Ben but they believed in man a fullish thing to do, for man is not trustworthy, that is why we need the Holy Spirit.

And neither do I believe in man. I do believe in God, whose name is Holy Spirit. Didn't Jesus say to the Samaritan? You Gentiles worship what you do not undersatand; while we Jews understand what we worship. Because salvation is of the Jews. (John 4:22-24)

Where are you, on the side of the Samaritan or on the side of Jesus? You know very well that you are on the side of the Samaritan if you are not Jewish. So, what's taking you so long to embrace the Faith of Jesus and be able to say you understand whom you worship?

 

[shortfade2]

Jesus did not resurrect. Luke said that he was alive after his suffering on the cross. It does not mean he died, and much less that he resurrected. Now, he has been dead for about 2000 years. And you won't make him alive because of your faithful excitement. Sorry my friend, reality is hard to take sometimes.

Right, and 500 people were all dillusional when they saw him.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Right, and 500 people were all dillusional when they saw him.

Thousands of people have seen Elvis walking around after 1977... and I'm not talking about Elvis impersonators either.

I guess you're right... delusional is the word for it.

 

[free spirit]

And neither do I believe in man. I do believe in God, whose name is Holy Spirit. Didn't Jesus say to the Samaritan? You Gentiles worship what you do not undersatand; while we Jews understand what we worship. Because salvation is of the Jews. (John 4:22-24)

Where are you, on the side of the Samaritan or on the side of Jesus? You know very well that you are on the side of the Samaritan if you are not Jewish. So, what's taking you so long to embrace the Faith of Jesus and be able to say you understand whom you worship?

To me Jesus is the true Jew, I do not know who you are, nor were you came from.
Faith is only a vehicles or a door to get the Holy Spirit into your heart. And when he is in there you will sorely know that you have a Holy guest within you.

 

[free spirit]

You missed to have finished this much better if you didn't have to bring your Replacement Theology in.

Yes you are correct Ben Jesus came to replace the Jewish religion and some of the Jews that did not want to loose power and authority had him killed.
They had the Christ of God killed for their selfish gains.

 

[shortfade2]

Thousands of people have seen Elvis walking around after 1977... and I'm not talking about Elvis impersonators either.

I guess you're right... delusional is the word for it.

But, of course, was that over the course of 6 weeks? did elvis appear to a group of 12 people ever? Did his body disapear from his tomb?

 

[Poisonshady313]

But, of course, was that over the course of 6 weeks? did elvis appear to a group of 12 people ever? Did his body disapear from his tomb?

Nope.

And neither did Jesus.

 

[Ben Masada]

Right, and 500 people were all dillusional when they saw him.

Who said so, Paul? When he was arrested in the Temple, the reason was because he was teaching the Jews to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children and to renounce their Jewish customs. (Acts 21:21,28)

When Paul was taken to Court and asked why he had been arrested, he said that the reason was because of his hope in the resurrection of the dead. (Acts 22:6)

As we can see, Paul lied according to the evidences I have quoted here. Having been proved a liar, it's only obvious that he lied about the 500 people whom he alleged to have seen Jesus.

Besides, to have seen Jesus after crucifixion, is no proof that he died and much less that he resurrected. (Acts 1:1-3)

 

[shortfade2]

uhh. The 500 people said they had seen him. It was written in 4 books, and not to mention that his body was never found.

 

[Poisonshady313]

uhh. The 500 people said they had seen him. It was written in 4 books, and not to mention that his body was never found.

Harry Potter was written in 7 books. I'm sure Hogwarts had at least 500 students who would have seen him...

I wonder if that guy has a facebook, twitter, or myspace account.

 

[shortfade2]

ha, I love how your arguments pretty much mock me without actually saying anything to prove/disprove it.

 

[Poisonshady313]

ha, I love how your arguments pretty much mock me without actually saying anything to prove/disprove it.

I don't need to disprove anything. My assertion is that the "new testament" is fiction.

The same book that says a lot of people saw something that the book said happened is circular, therefore invalid.


"x happened"
"How do you know?"
"The book said so"
"So what?"
"500 people saw it happen"
"How do you know that?"
"The same book said so"


Why bother looking for the body of someone if they never existed?

 

[Harmonious]

I tried to wait until I finished reading through this thread before responding, because I have quite a lot to say on the topic of Jesus and that Canaanite woman, not as a god, or as a son of a god, but as a Jewish man and his treatment of non-Jews. But this post caught my attention and needs to be addressed before I get there.

Hey there,
I think that really Jesus was trying to see how much faith this lady had, when she said yes, but even the dogs lick from their masters table. We have to look at our condition sometimes and say or cry out to Jesus and say Lord I know I am not where I need to be with you BUT I NEED YOU LORD!! I need your grace and mercy and LOVE, I need you to help me and fix my situation. When the friends of the man on the bad came and broke open the roof to get to Jesus that was a test of their faith! Jesus calls our hand sometimes and says, Look at your heart, where is it?

I was with you until here. You have your beliefs, and it makes a lot of sense to you, and I would not criticize what you believe (in general). But when you got HERE, I couldn't hold back anymore.

What are your motives, are you really willing to seek me to get your needs met, do you realize I came to the Jew first then to the Greek, ( and we all know that we Gentiles were at one time considered dogs to the Jew because we did not adhere to the strict customs that they do.

This is patently incorrect.

While I realize that there might have been a few Jews at the time who might have believed this (there are always a few bad apples in every bunch), this is not correct in any way, shape, or form, when it comes to describing the beliefs of the Jews at ANY time.

Since Noah, God had a respectable covenant with every human in the world, but since Abraham, He maintained that covenant with humanity, but had a special one with Abraham and his eventual descendants, who became the Jews.

I don't know how familiar you are with Jewish law, but it is absolutely forbidden to humiliate people. There are quite a few laws that govern human interaction, and there are countless laws that discuss how people are to talk to one another. And I appreciate the fact that Jesus actually DID help the woman, but what he put her through was absolutely untenable, from one human being to another, much less one Jew to a non-Jew.

In no place in Tanach where prophets speak to the non-Jews, or even give commandments to the Jews regarding non-Jews are the non-Jews referred to, analogized to, or otherwise compared to animals, unless it is to compare the nations to animals of strength.

Even Amalek, the one nation that God commanded the Jews to utterly annihilate, was never referred to as "a dog," particularly not when the idea was Jews are humans, and Amalek was... other.

Jews are commanded to give non-Jews respect, because despite common courtesy (which is always important), to do less than that is a profanation of God's name.

Just the concept that you can even SAY "we all know that we Gentiles were at one time considered dogs to the Jew" shows how badly Jesus made the Jews of the time look. If the person you consider to be your Lord and Savior could say such things about non-Jews, surely (in your mind) this must be how the average Jew would have thought of non-Jews.

While the non-Jews of the time certainly gave the Jews of the time plenty of reasons not to love them (the Romans really took delight in crucifying Jews for any and all reasons, "to prevent revolt," and things of that nature), that did not give anyone reason to treat non-Jews badly, or to humiliate them before providing goods and/or services.

It saddens me to no end to know that Christians and other non-Jews across the board think that Jews at that time, or any other, would have gladly treated non-Jews as badly (the fact that Jesus actually cured the Canaanite's daughter, notwithstanding) and compared them to animals, when Jews were compared to humans.

Even if the animals were cute and adorable, the comparison is still disgusting, and totally against Jewish law and philosophy. Individuals might have sinned similarly, I'm sure, but this is not the way to impress people thousands of years after the fact.

Non-Jews, not then, and not ever, are as beloved to God as the Jews are. The fact that God has a different covenant for them does not mean that they are any less human, or any less deserving of dignity.

I'm glad this lady passed Jesus' "test." As far as Jewish law goes, this "test" was completely forbidden. Even God (assuming that Jesus and God are two different entities) would never have tested anyone like that. No one suffered as much as Job, and God never humiliated Job the way Jesus mocked that Canaanite woman.

 

[Harmonious]

You are so bent on making Jesus completely into a modern Jew, and so bent on defaming Paul, that you actually contradict yourself.

The passage in question is Markan -- not Matthean. It's found in Mark 7:24-30. If we look at how Mark is set up, we find that a crisis is building. In chapter 6, Jesus' own people don't recognize him. Mark says, "He could do no work of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them. And he was amazed at their unbelief." Clearly, belief -- faith -- is a necessary ingredient for kingdom power.

Immediately following that episode, Jesus sends his disciples out. (A nice allegory).

In Chapter 7, we find Jesus railing against the religious authorities with a passage from Isaiah: "This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, teaching human precepts as doctrines." Then he teaches about defilement.

Immediately after this lesson is the pericope in question. A woman (unclean) -- a Syrophoenician woman (unclean) approached Jesus (women were not allowed to approach men. Gentiles were not allowed to approach rabbis).

That is certainly not true. All kinds of people came to the Rabbis, looking for justice in Courts of Law, and in order to convert to Judaism.

"Unclean" women (not because of their nationality, but because of their menstrual status, and this would not refer to non-Jewish women at all because Jewish men were not permitted to have sexual intercourse with non-Jewish women at all) were not permitted to touch Jewish men. Anyone was supposed to approach Rabbis if they had questions, or a desire to convert, or had any need whatsoever.

Saying that women were not supposed to approach men is patently ridiculous. How else was a woman supposed to bring a sacrifice after she gave birth? Her husband might have gone with her, but SHE had to approach the Cohen (priest) regarding the animal being sacrificed.

If a woman had a question about Kashrut, or marital purity, or any other thing, they asked a Rabbi. She could only do that if SHE approached the man.

If a non-Jewish woman had a question, or desired to understand Jewish law, there was absolutely NO reason she could not approach a man, or a Jewish man, or a Rabbi to seek answers.

The explanation you gave might be commonly used to excuse Jesus' unseemly behavior, but it has nothing to do with reality of how Jews lived, at that time or any other.

That

person was not an "unbeliever," and Jesus was able to exercise power, because of her faith.

This is problematic, especially if you believe Jesus was a god. He should have modeled appropriate behavior that could have been looked to down through the ages. He should have acted as a model for how humans are SUPPOSED to act towards one another.

Even if his ministry was limited by command or design, he treated her as no human should treat another. He did not attempt to correct her wayward behavior, by addressing what she might have done wrong.

She was made to feel unworthy because HE CLAIMED Jews were considered children, and non-Jews were considered dogs.

The emphasis is not on Jesus treating the woman like a dog, but on the woman's faith in the face of adversity.

I'm glad you think so.

But that is not what I (and other Jews, like Ben) see when reading this passage.

 

[Harmonious]

TO BEN MASADA

You are missing the point Ben Masada the dog rapresent an unclean animal, those outside his chosen people were also seen as unclean,

No they weren't. Not necessarily.

I may not have any type of grip on Koinic Greek, but I DO understand the laws of "cleanliness" being discussed. It may not have translated well at all, because the actual words in Hebrew that are probably being discussed here are not actually translated as "clean" and "unclean" or "pure" and "impure." If they are what I THINK they are, the words are actually Tahor and Tamei. These words don't translate nicely and neatly in any Romance language, and probably not well into Greek.

I know they do just fine translated from Hebrew to Aramaic and Arabic. The actual translation of Tahor into English, though unwieldy and clunky, is approximately "the state of being whereby something is permitted." Usually, that refers to Temple usage, or sometimes the part of the menstual cycle where a husband and wife are permitted to each other. And the corollary is that Tamei translates just as approximately to "the state of being whereby something is forbidden," such as a Jew is not permitted to go to the Temple, partake of a sacrifice, or a woman wouldn't be permitted to have relations with her husband.

The idea that non-Jews are "unclean" without question is patently ridiculous. Non-Jews don't have as many restrictions on them for dealing with certain things that Jews have. While non-Jews may eat food that is unkosher, or have things in their homes that is forbidden for Jews to own, there is nothing that says that a non-Jew, man or woman, is specifically "Tamei."

 

[Harmonious]

Sounds like an awful test... administered by violating several fundamental Jewish principles regarding the treatment of our fellow... especially the treatment of gentiles.

Things like "Do not oppress a stranger for you were yourselves once strangers in the land of Egypt"...

There are also strong and certain principles prohibiting humiliation.

This woman was a woman in need, and there is no way in which I can find Jesus' response to her acceptable.

:yes:

What else is there to be said?