South Carolina OKs ban on gender affirming care.

[Laniakea]

That's their decision to make - not mine or yours.

Just like it's my decision to decide if I want to take the heart medication I have to take, based on its side effects versus advantages to my health. That's not anyone's decision but mine.

Wrong. Children do not have the ability to legally consent to such things.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Wrong. Children do not have the ability to legally consent to such things.

They do when their parents, doctors and mental health professionals are involved. Parents can certainly make decisions on their child's behalf, and with their child's input.

They're in a much better position to know what the best course of action is. Much better than people who've never met them and know nothing about their situation.

 

[Laniakea]

They do when their parents, doctors and mental health professionals are involved. Parents can certainly make decisions on their child's behalf, and with their child's input.

IOW, bad decisions spurred on by predatory doctors and pharmaceutical companies, with the child suffering the consequences.

 

[SkepticThinker]

IOW, bad decisions spurred on by predatory doctors and pharmaceutical companies, with the child suffering the consequences.

Nope. Not what I said in the slightest.

 

[Laniakea]

Nope. Not what I said in the slightest.

It was the corrected version of it.

 

[VoidCat]

Being trans is a spiritual gift

Tagging @JustGeorge. @Guitar's Cry @PoetPhilosopher. @Rachel Rugelach @Debater Slayer @The Hammer and @Shadow Wolf So I thought I'd write about my experiences being trans and how i view it as a spiritual gift rather then a curse. Slight disclaimer- Im nonbinary my experiences would be...

www.religiousforums.com

I'm posting this again. After reading the hate on this thread i feel yet again compelled to post how i view being trans. So that it can be a pallet cleanser for folk

 

[libre]

Unwatching my thread.
At this point it's just not productive to give debate experience to anyone who doesn't actually care about trans people.

 

[icehorse]

Unwatching my thread.
At this point it's just not productive to give debate experience to anyone who doesn't actually care about trans people.

Just to be clear, I care about ALL kids. GAC sacrifices gay kids JUST IN CASE some kids with GD might be trans.

I care about ALL kids, including trans kids.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Using that logic we can also compare healthcare outcomes both before and after jumping on pogo sticks for 15 minutes a day.

Nope, that's not the logic I just explained. The logic I just explained is literally the basis of all sociological and medical research.

Those studies you've shown all make inappropriate assumptions.

Okay, you're just done. You won't accept scientific research, no matter how much there is.

Why do you pretend to care about facts, and then baselessly reject science that disagrees with you? You're just a dogmatic anti-trans advocate.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

This conversation is all about GAC, which is about a way to treat kids with GD, correct?

Yes.

One huge issue is that when a kid has GD it is UNKNOWN whether that kid is really trans or not. A LOT of kids with GD, when allowed to go thru puberty and adolescence naturally, end up having their GD resolve on its own.

Citation needed.

Many of those kids end up being gay.

And? That doesn't mean that they can't also be trans.

For that subset of kids, GAC would have unnecessarily damaged their lives forever.

This is baseless nonsense. Can you provide a study that shows this is any more significant a problem than, say, a child without bipolar disorder being prescribed medication for bipolar disorder? The fact is, proper diagnosis and analysis prevents this, and the studies show that the application of GAC is significantly beneficial. We simple don't see these "forever damaged" lives you're alleging, any more than we see lives "forever damaged" by a misdiagnosis of cancer, or bipolar, or ADHD. These things can happen, but it's not an argument against the efficacy of PROPER PRACTICE any more than the argument that a cancer patient died because they were given the wrong treatment is an argument against all of modern cancer treatment.

Yes, this is a standard bit of propaganda, but it's not true. Puberty blockers have a host of medical issues associated with them. See the link I provided in post #737.

You mean, the "technical paper" published by an anti-trans advocacy group? Gonna need something better than that.

I have provided links in the GAC low evidence thread which I've already linked to in this thread.

I have provided seven medical studies, and you dismissed all of them off-handedly. You don't care about facts or medical studies.

And again, you have no evidence that GAC is any better than the mythical pogo stick therapy that I'm proposing.

Again, seven medical studies. Seven of them. I presented them to you, including one that had control groups, and you're just ignoring them.

Because - when left alone - a lot of GD resolves itself!!!

Which you have yet to provide any evidence for.

What you don't seem to understand is that GAC involves diagnosis, not just treatment. They're not jumping to the conclusion that these children are trans, they're going through rigorous examination and diagnostic processes to determine whether or not they may be trans, and even then the treatments may vary on an individual basis. This is literally how basically all medical treatment works. In the cases where GD may "resolve itself", often medical intervention isn't prescribed. In cases where it doesn't, or it is determined it likely won't, "resolve itself", further intervention has shown significantly beneficial effects.

I get that this is unfortunate for you, because you have to stick to your anti-trans dogma while desperately trying to appear reasonable, despite rejecting all medical research that contradicts you, and supporting your arguments with explicitly anti-trans sources.

I'll stick to the studies published in medical journals, and the results of actual medical testing. You can stick to your dogma.

 

[icehorse]

Again, seven medical studies. Seven of them. I presented them to you, including one that had control groups, and you're just ignoring them.

I'm not ignoring them, I'm saying that they do not study the question that many healthcare systems in Europe say they should be studying.

I'm summarizing here, but your studies set out to prove that kids end up feeling better if they go through GAC.

But Europe and I are calling for is to compare GAC to talk therapy only.

Those are two different questions.

Which you have yet to provide any evidence for.

The evidence supporting "gender affirming care" is of very low reliability

What you don't seem to understand is that GAC involves diagnosis, not just treatment. They're not jumping to the conclusion that these children are trans, they're going through rigorous examination and diagnostic processes to determine whether or not they may be trans, and even then the treatments may vary on an individual basis. This is literally how basically all medical treatment works. In the cases where GD may "resolve itself", often medical intervention isn't prescribed. In cases where it doesn't, or it is determined it likely won't, "resolve itself", further intervention has shown significantly beneficial effects.

Many kids experience SEVERE GD that does not resolve itself until they go through puberty and adolescence. To start such a kid on the dangerous, one-way path of GAC before they've gone through puberty, is to jump the gun.

Remember, GD is entirely a mental condition. There are no tests that can be run. The only tool we have is therapy and therapy is often not a 100% perfect diagnostic tool.

Why are you in such a rush to get GD kids started on GAC? What's your goal?

I get that this is unfortunate for you, because you have to stick to your anti-trans dogma while desperately trying to appear reasonable, despite rejecting all medical research that contradicts you, and supporting your arguments with explicitly anti-trans sources.

Again with the strawman arguments. I'm not anti-trans, I'm pro-healthy kids. Do you think that subjecting non-trans kids to GAC will ultimately benefit trans people? Because every doctor who starts a kid on GAC is rolling the dice, and sometimes they will be wrong.

 

[metis]

I'm getting off this thread because the anti-trans bigotry is just sickening to me.


OOPs, I was already off it.

 

[icehorse]

I'm getting off this thread because the anti-trans bigotry is just sickening to me.


OOPs, I was already off it.

Not sure what you're referring to, but I am most definitely NOT anti-trans, and it's slander for you to say so if you're referring to me.

 

[icehorse]

They do when their parents, doctors and mental health professionals are involved. Parents can certainly make decisions on their child's behalf, and with their child's input.

They're in a much better position to know what the best course of action is. Much better than people who've never met them and know nothing about their situation.

Doctors are effectively bound by prevailing protocols. The GAC protocol has NO good quality evidence to support it, which is why it's being abandoned across Europe.

As we've seen on this and many related threads, dangerous propaganda has spread concerning the efficacy and safety of GAC. GAC's efficacy is dubious, and it is patently dangerous.

If you can - for a moment - detach yourself from the talking points and step back, you can see that GAC defies common sense:

- How can constricting a child's torso and lungs for extended periods be safe?
- How can ongoing applications of sex hormones be safe?
- How can cutting off healthy body parts be beneficial?
- How can sterilizing kids who have never experienced sex or romantic love be a good call?

These are the claims made by GAC advocates and they are indeed extraordinary and need to be criticized vigorously.

The burden is on the GAC advocates to provide extraordinarily good evidence that GAC is more effective than talk therapy. They have not.

On this forum GAC advocates put forth studies that boil down to this:

"Kids with GD that are subjected to GAC feel better mentally after a while."

Guess what?

Kids with GD that are NOT subjected to GAC feel better mentally after a while.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'll stick to the studies published in medical journals, and the results of actual medical testing. You can stick to your dogma.

Yeah. Piltdown Man and lobotomies would really complicate how they're trying to force fit science and medicine conform to their scantily informed opinions.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not sure what you're referring to, but I am most definitely NOT anti-trans, and it's slander for you to say so if you're referring to me.

You blame the victims, deny we exist, wish to deny treatment, and dismiss everything away as strawmen and activists and keep insisting that an accepted treatment that's necessary for some is unnecessary and use women, gays and children against us. That is anti-trans.

 

[icehorse]

You blame the victims

citation?

deny we exist

citation?

wish to deny treatment

Only the dangerous treatments that have unproven efficacy, and only for kids. As I've said many times, I think we should let adults experiencing GD do what they with their bodies.

treatment that's necessary for some

You have no high quality evidence that this dangerous, irreversible treatment is better than talk therapy. Until you prove that, you cannot claim it's "necessary".

and use women, gays and children against us

The opposite is true. You are putting kids at risk with no evidence that your dangerous, irreversible interventions help.

When we discover that a GD kid was not trans, but instead gay, and that we did irreversible harm to that kid, do you think that episode will benefit trans people? I think it will hurt the standing of trans people in society.

==

I think that THE goal of helping kids with GD is to improve their mental health. And that's the ONLY goal. Would you agree with that?

 

[icehorse]

You mean, the "technical paper" published by an anti-trans advocacy group? Gonna need something better than that.

A couple of points:

- defending biological sex is NOT anti trans.
- the paper has - if I recall - over 140 citations.

That's a mountain of factual claims.

I'll stick to the studies published in medical journals, and the results of actual medical testing.

Except the ones that disagree with your dogma?

You can stick to your dogma.

I have provided many citations. I await your citations comparing GAC with talk therapy. This is not dogma on my part, this is how science works. We do not subject people to dangerous interventions until we know these interventions are better than less dangerous alternatives.

You have provided no quality evidence to support your dangerous interventions.

 

[fantome profane]

Until you prove ...

Prove to who?! Where did you get the idea that anyone needs to prove anything to you?

This is the problem. No one needs to prove to you that they need their heart medication, or their insulin, or asthma medication etc. But you feel they need to prove to you that they deserve the same privilege regarding gender affirming care. They don't! And the only reason you feel they do is your obvious anti-trans bigotry!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

citation?

It's how you try to say things like you aren't anti-trans but the activists are going too far, the activists are forcing things, the activists are distorting research and have politicized treatment.
And you are the one who thought medical transitions have only been going on for about 12-13 years.

citation?

You said kids don't have GD. That's denying we exist. You think going through the puberty of the sex we were born as is an ideal thing for us. That's denying we exist and not listening to us. That's also an indication of prejudice.

Only the dangerous treatments that have unproven efficacy, and only for kids. As I've said many times, I think we should let adults experiencing GD do what they with their bodies.

Your claim of unproven is unfounded.

You have no high quality evidence that this dangerous, irreversible treatment is better than talk therapy. Until you prove that, you cannot claim it's "necessary".

This is merely your uninformed opinion that has refused to learn. Like if you'd be listening nothing permanent is being done to kids. If it turns out a medical transition isn't the best route then the puberty blocking meds are stopped and the birth sex puberty happens.

The opposite is true. You are putting kids at risk with no evidence that your dangerous, irreversible interventions help.

You biased, bigoted opinion that refuses ti learn.

When we discover that a GD kid was not trans, but instead gay, and that we did irreversible harm to that kid, do you think that episode will benefit trans people? I think it will hurt the standing of trans people in society.

When will you realize there's a lot of us who have always known? You say you want to protect the trans people in society, but what you insist we do is let us suffer.