Southern Baptist Convention says "no" to women pastors

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yes, the typical oblivious understanding of an atheist, in their incessant attempt to try and undermine the wisdom of the Bible.
Capability or competence is only partially the issue for the grounds that exclusively men are to hold positions of authority and instruction.
It is more a matter of dignity and hierarchy.

For example, although a child may outgrow their parents in maturity and pragmatism, it is never acceptable that they should defy or challenge their parents authority.
Same with civilians, even though some may be more law abiding then many of those who are on the police force, this does not justify them showing contempt or insolence towards an officer of the law.

Man was created before Eve, and it was Eve who succumbed to the temptations of the devil - this Paul states clearly in his defense of the precept that he lays down in 1 Tim 2:13-15.

Also, throughout the Bible, we see that man has precedence over women in roles of authority and leadership:

All the Levitical priesthood were men.
All the Kings were men except for the one occasion where Athaliah illegally usurped the throne - and she was cut down in a most ignoble fashion.
All the judges were men. For even when Barak refused to go to battle without Deborah, he was humiliated by the notion that he had to be lead by a woman (Judges 4:9),
The head of every man is Christ, and the head of every woman is the man (1 Corinthians 11:3).
The woman of old were praised for their obedience towards their husbands (1 Peter 3:5-6).
Paul stipulates that the bishops/presbyters/elders are to a man married to one wife (emphasis on man and wife)

You call me "oblivious" at the same time as you demonstrate yourself to be woefully lacking in any sort of wisdom at all - biblical or otherwise.

"Capability or competence is only partially the issue for the grounds that exclusively men are to hold positions of authority and instruction. It is more a matter of dignity and hierarchy." What are you suggesting here, that women might be capable and/or competent, but couldn't possibly be dignified? I can hardly wait until you explain that to your mother!

"... a child may outgrow their parents in maturity and pragmatism, it is never acceptable that they should defy or challenge their parents authority." Never, eh? When the parent grows senile and orders the adult child to commit a crime, the adult child must obey? I can promise you this -- that numbskull adult kid will never be able to use that as an excuse in court.

"Same with civilians, even though some may be more law abiding then many of those who are on the police force, this does not justify them showing contempt or insolence towards an officer of the law." So naturally, you have nothing but the greatest respect for Officer Derek Chauvin, who murdered George Floyd. Good one, oh wise sage!

"Man was created before Eve, and it was Eve who succumbed to the temptations of the devil - this Paul states clearly in his defense of the precept that he lays down in 1 Tim 2:13-15." Uh, only if the only creation story you read is Genesis 2. Genesis 1 says they were created together, because it would have been obvious to even the dumbest of us (let alone God) that man by himself would live precisely one generation and that would be that.

Shall I go on?

But now, let's consider this business of God. You know, the God that ordered the deliberate and ruthless murder (and rape) of the Canaanites, so that "His" people (the Israelites) could steal their lands and properties. But see, we're told there is only one God, so isn't that single, solitary God also the God of every other people upon the face of the earth? If not, which god created them?

And do you really like following a leader who would kill and rape children so that you could have a few extra toys to play with?

I can tell you, that as a feeling, caring human being -- I would not.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

She was a prophetess (nor did I call her a Judge) - do you not know your Bible?

Wow!

See the Shalvi/Hyman Encyclopedia of Jewish Women - Deborah: Bible

Deborah is one of the major judges (charismatic military leaders, not juridical figures) in the story of how Israel takes the land of Canaan. She is the only female judge, the only one to be called a prophet, and the only one described as performing a judicial function.​

Also, from Wikipedia: Deborah ...

According to the Book of Judges, Deborah (Hebrew: דְּבוֹרָה, Dəḇōrā, "bee") was a prophetess of the God of the Israelites, the fourth Judge of pre-monarchic Israel and the only female judge mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.​

Apparently it is you who do not know our Bible.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

You make a decent case that the Bible is consistently sexist, but I don't see anything that would imply that the Bible is wise.

Well said, in my opinion. There are aslo biblical stories of a sadistic, psychopathic, and genocidal God who commanded the Israelites to wipe other nations off the face of the earth. According to the Bible, God ordered the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2–3) and told them, "Now go, attack the Amalekites, and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’" (I Samuel 15:3). There are also these "words of wisdom" from the Bible: "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks" (Psalm 137:9). Of course, we can't leave out the biblical story of God committing global genocide by drowning humanity (aside from Noah and his family) in a worldwide flood because he is royally pi**ed about how wicked humanity has become, despite allegedly having foreknowledge of man's moral downfall because, according to the Bible, he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. According to Genesis 6:6-7, God Almighty regretted creating not only mankind but also every animal, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds of the air. However, according to the Bible, this supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing God repopulates the earth with the same morally flawed human beings. Is God completely stupid or what? The Bible contains several other verses that mention God's regrets in addition to creating humanity, all animals, and birds (1 Samuel 15:11; 2 Samuel 24:16; Jeremiah 42:10). And, finally, "Violence in the Bible: Greatest Hits" has several other examples of violence in the Bible.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Well said, in my opinion. There are also the biblical stories of a sadistic, psychopathic, and genocidal God who commanded the Israelites to wipe other nations off the face of the earth. According to the Bible, God ordered the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2–3) and told them, "Now go, attack the Amalekites, and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’" (I Samuel 15:3). There are also these "words of wisdom" from the Bible: "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks" (Psalm 137:9). Of course, we can't leave out the biblical story of God committing global genocide by drowning humanity (aside from Noah and his family) in a worldwide flood because he is royally pi**ed about how wicked humanity has become, despite allegedly having foreknowledge of man's moral downfall because, according to the Bible, he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. According to Genesis 6:6-7, God Almighty regretted creating not only mankind but also every animal, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds of the air. However, according to the Bible, this supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing God repopulates the earth with the same morally flawed human beings. Is God completely stupid or what? And, finally, "Violence in the Bible: Greatest Hits" has several other examples of violence in the Bible.

God thus, somehow, unfathomably, proving Himself to be "all loving." The person who can accept all of what you demonstrated, and still believe "God is Love," has to be consciously and deliberately deluding themselves.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Well said, in my opinion. There are aslo biblical stories of a sadistic, psychopathic, and genocidal God who commanded the Israelites to wipe other nations off the face of the earth. According to the Bible, God ordered the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2–3) and told them, "Now go, attack the Amalekites, and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’" (I Samuel 15:3). There are also these "words of wisdom" from the Bible: "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks" (Psalm 137:9). Of course, we can't leave out the biblical story of God committing global genocide by drowning humanity (aside from Noah and his family) in a worldwide flood because he is royally pi**ed about how wicked humanity has become, despite allegedly having foreknowledge of man's moral downfall because, according to the Bible, he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. According to Genesis 6:6-7, God Almighty regretted creating not only mankind but also every animal, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds of the air. However, according to the Bible, this supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing God repopulates the earth with the same morally flawed human beings. Is God completely stupid or what? The Bible contains several other verses that mention God's regrets in addition to creating humanity, all animals, and birds (1 Samuel 15:11; 2 Samuel 24:16; Jeremiah 42:10). And, finally, "Violence in the Bible: Greatest Hits" has several other examples of violence in the Bible.

@Sgt. Pepper you need to create a whole new thread on this, perhaps around the theme of "you can't get there from here."
It was an excellent post.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

God thus, somehow, unfathomably, proving Himself to be "all loving." The person who can accept all of what you demonstrated, and still believe "God is Love," has to be consciously and deliberately deluding themselves.

The Bible also mentions God changing his mind about bringing disasters down on his own people as a punishment for their transgressions against him (Jeremiah 26:13; 1 Chronicles 21:15; Joel 2:13). For the record, Jeremiah 26:13, 1 Chronicles 21:15, and Joel 2:13 coincide with Isaiah 45:7 (NIV), which states, "I form the light and create darkness; I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things." Also, the New King James Version uses the word "calamity," and the King James Version uses the word "evil" instead of "disaster" or "calamity." The King James Bible essentially says that God creates evil.

Furthermore, the Bible teaches that God is capable of hatred in addition to wrath and jealousy. Christians, in my opinion, deceive themselves by focusing entirely on his purported love and kindness while disregarding the other scriptures depicting his hatred, anger, wrath, and jealousy. In my opinion, all we have to do is read the Bible (the Old Testament in particular) to see that a person should never derive their morality from it. I reread it without the rose-colored glasses after leaving Christianity, and I no longer believe that anyone should read the Bible to learn about morality (or love, mercy, and justice).

In my opinion, I think that God has an extremely sadistic mentality of "Do as I say, not as I do," making him the most hypocritical (as well as detestable and barbarous) figure known to mankind. Speaking as an ex-Christian and survivor of childhood abuse, I see God as a narcissistic and abusive parent who only "loves" you when you do or say exactly what they want you to do. And you think that if you don't make them angry, they won't hurt you, but you're not sure because they have a violent temper and are known to irrationally lash out. So, if you disobey them and make them angry, there will be hell to pay.

That isn't a relationship based on unconditional love, but rather one based on fear and mistrust. If God exists, then I don't believe that he is worthy of my respect and reverence, let alone my love and worship. I do believe, however, that he has earned my contempt. If God exists, then he can go to hell. He obviously doesn't think I'm worth his time, and I now don't think he's worth mine. I also see God as a sadistic and psychopathic monster who delights in inflicting pain and torturing people, as well as in causing total chaos and disasters in order to inflict pain and kill people. I don't see him as loving and just.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wow!

See the Shalvi/Hyman Encyclopedia of Jewish Women - Deborah: Bible

Deborah is one of the major judges (charismatic military leaders, not juridical figures) in the story of how Israel takes the land of Canaan. She is the only female judge, the only one to be called a prophet, and the only one described as performing a judicial function.​

Also, from Wikipedia: Deborah ...

According to the Book of Judges, Deborah (Hebrew: דְּבוֹרָה, Dəḇōrā, "bee") was a prophetess of the God of the Israelites, the fourth Judge of pre-monarchic Israel and the only female judge mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.​

Apparently it is you who do not know our Bible.

I was about to use that Wikipedia article as well, but I thought that he would take a Christian source more seriously. Assuming that he is Christian. If not there are Jewish sources that say the same thing.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

You call me "oblivious" at the same time as you demonstrate yourself to be woefully lacking in any sort of wisdom at all - biblical or otherwise.

"Capability or competence is only partially the issue for the grounds that exclusively men are to hold positions of authority and instruction. It is more a matter of dignity and hierarchy." What are you suggesting here, that women might be capable and/or competent, but couldn't possibly be dignified? I can hardly wait until you explain that to your mother!

"... a child may outgrow their parents in maturity and pragmatism, it is never acceptable that they should defy or challenge their parents authority." Never, eh? When the parent grows senile and orders the adult child to commit a crime, the adult child must obey? I can promise you this -- that numbskull adult kid will never be able to use that as an excuse in court.

"Same with civilians, even though some may be more law abiding then many of those who are on the police force, this does not justify them showing contempt or insolence towards an officer of the law." So naturally, you have nothing but the greatest respect for Officer Derek Chauvin, who murdered George Floyd. Good one, oh wise sage!

"Man was created before Eve, and it was Eve who succumbed to the temptations of the devil - this Paul states clearly in his defense of the precept that he lays down in 1 Tim 2:13-15." Uh, only if the only creation story you read is Genesis 2. Genesis 1 says they were created together, because it would have been obvious to even the dumbest of us (let alone God) that man by himself would live precisely one generation and that would be that.

Shall I go on?

But now, let's consider this business of God. You know, the God that ordered the deliberate and ruthless murder (and rape) of the Canaanites, so that "His" people (the Israelites) could steal their lands and properties. But see, we're told there is only one God, so isn't that single, solitary God also the God of every other people upon the face of the earth? If not, which god created them?

And do you really like following a leader who would kill and rape children so that you could have a few extra toys to play with?

I can tell you, that as a feeling, caring human being -- I would not.

Winner frubal.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They split from the Baptist Church to support slavery amd have continually preached the hate (especially against other Christians) ever since.
No surprise.

 

[DNB]

Capability or competence is only partially the issue for the grounds that exclusively men are to hold positions of authority and instruction. It is more a matter of dignity and hierarchy." What are you suggesting here, that women might be capable and/or competent, but couldn't possibly be dignified? I can hardly wait until you explain that to your mother!

Women are extremely capable - show me one competent male, and I can show you 10 even more competent women, and visa versa. This, goes without saying. But, as children must obey their parents, and civilians the government, man is the head of the household and wherever leadership is required.
Of course, when the leader is imposing any type of illegal or immoral activity upon his subjects, they have the right to revolt in any peaceful manner that allows them to avoid the imposition of the ruler.

"... a child may outgrow their parents in maturity and pragmatism, it is never acceptable that they should defy or challenge their parents authority." Never, eh? When the parent grows senile and orders the adult child to commit a crime, the adult child must obey? I can promise you this -- that numbskull adult kid will never be able to use that as an excuse in court.

Same as above, obviously.

"Same with civilians, even though some may be more law abiding then many of those who are on the police force, this does not justify them showing contempt or insolence towards an officer of the law." So naturally, you have nothing but the greatest respect for Officer Derek Chauvin, who murdered George Floyd. Good one, oh wise sage!

Same as above, obviously.

"Man was created before Eve, and it was Eve who succumbed to the temptations of the devil - this Paul states clearly in his defense of the precept that he lays down in 1 Tim 2:13-15." Uh, only if the only creation story you read is Genesis 2. Genesis 1 says they were created together, because it would have been obvious to even the dumbest of us (let alone God) that man by himself would live precisely one generation and that would be that.

I don't understand the logistics entirely, but the overall Biblical emphasis is on Eve's secondary status. I'm not basing my opinion on only one passage.

Shall I go on?

But now, let's consider this business of God. You know, the God that ordered the deliberate and ruthless murder (and rape) of the Canaanites, so that "His" people (the Israelites) could steal their lands and properties. But see, we're told there is only one God, so isn't that single, solitary God also the God of every other people upon the face of the earth? If not, which god created them?

And do you really like following a leader who would kill and rape children so that you could have a few extra toys to play with?

I can tell you, that as a feeling, caring human being -- I would not.

God never ordered the rape of anyone, anywhere in the Bible. Have no idea where you got that from.
The people that God killed were worse than you, erroneously, described God to be, and He gave them centuries to repent.
You should dwell more on His mercy rather than always selectively pointing out the harsher parts of the Bible.
Both you and I need mercy - that should be your first concern.

 

[DNB]

Wow!

See the Shalvi/Hyman Encyclopedia of Jewish Women - Deborah: Bible

Deborah is one of the major judges (charismatic military leaders, not juridical figures) in the story of how Israel takes the land of Canaan. She is the only female judge, the only one to be called a prophet, and the only one described as performing a judicial function.​

Also, from Wikipedia: Deborah ...

According to the Book of Judges, Deborah (Hebrew: דְּבוֹרָה, Dəḇōrā, "bee") was a prophetess of the God of the Israelites, the fourth Judge of pre-monarchic Israel and the only female judge mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.​

Apparently it is you who do not know our Bible.

My mistake @Jayhawker Soule , I overlooked the preliminary description of her leadership in verses 4 & 5.
It was an inept assertion on my part, and even more so when I questioned @IndigoChild5559 acumen in regard to the Bible.
Thank you for the correction.

Ultimately, I should've been more careful in the manner that I stated my point. For, if I may, I still feel that my overall point is not undermined by this particular case. It is safe to say that this is an extremely rare exception where a woman lead, especially, again, when Barak is warned that it will be said that the victory will go to a woman (implying shame, according to my understanding). I do not believe that it should have much bearing on the argument of whether or not God approves of females ruling over males.

 

[Windwalker]

Well at least the let their women drive cars and leave the house without a male chaperone. So at least there's that.

 

[We Never Know]

No, you just do not know how to tell a joke.

Referring to the poll.... Women pastors...
-will it make difference
-will they be better, worse or equal
-can they handle the confessions
-will they keep confessions confidential
-etc, etc

 

[DNB]

And a judge.
Judges 4
4Now Deborah was a woman prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth; she judged Israel at that time.
5And she sat under the palm tree of Deborah, between Ramah and Beth-el, in the mountain of Ephraim; and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

You're right Indigo, I made a rather inept mistake on that point. Deborah was a judge in the judicial sense, and Barak played the part similar to all his predecessors and those that followed him - liberator.

My apologies first for my misleading remark, and secondly for my impetuous accusation of your unfamiliarity with the Bible.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

God never ordered the rape of anyone, anywhere in the Bible. Have no idea where you got that from.

Numbers 31:18 "But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

And what do you suppose they were going to do with "women children" who have not know men? Needlework? You don't need to be a virgin for that!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

God never ordered the rape of anyone, anywhere in the Bible. Have no idea where you got that from.
The people that God killed were worse than you, erroneously, described God to be, and He gave them centuries to repent.

Similarly Deuteronomy 20:14 permits the Israelites, after conquering a town that has refused to surrender, to “take as your booty the women, the children, the livestock, and everything in the town…and enjoy the use of the spoil of your enemy which the Lord your God gives you.” If the range of activities covered by the word “enjoy the use” (the Hebrew literally means “eat”) is not clear here, the implications of Numbers 31:17-18 are unambiguous. Moses enjoins upon the returning warriors to kill their Midianite femal captives who have lain with a man, but “spare for yourselves every young woman who has not had carnal relations with a man”; we may be sure that for yourselves means that the warriors may “use” their virgin captives sexually. The law in Numbers differs from the law in Deuteronomy — perhaps the most significant distinction is that the law in Deuteronomy does not care whether the captive is a virgin or not — but it too permits an Israelite warrior to marry (or “marry”) a foreign woman.

• The Beginnings of Jewishness: Boundaries, Varieties, Uncertainties, pg 255-256, by Shaye JD Cohen

Cohen goes on to note (in note 52):

I do not know why the hew Jewish version omits for yourself; the Hebrew lakhem is unambiguous.That the intent of for yourself is sexual or matrimonial is obvious; ...​

So, for example, Sefaria renders Num 31:17-18 as follows:

​

וְעַתָּ֕ה הִרְג֥וּ כׇל־זָכָ֖ר בַּטָּ֑ף וְכׇל־אִשָּׁ֗ה יֹדַ֥עַת אִ֛ישׁ לְמִשְׁכַּ֥ב זָכָ֖ר הֲרֹֽגוּ׃

Now, therefore, slay every male among the noncombatants, and slay also every woman who has known a man carnally;​

​

וְכֹל֙ הַטַּ֣ף בַּנָּשִׁ֔ים אֲשֶׁ֥ר לֹא־יָדְע֖וּ מִשְׁכַּ֣ב זָכָ֑ר הַחֲי֖וּ לָכֶֽם׃

but spare every female noncombatant who has not had carnal relations with a man.​

While the JPS Women's Commentary notes:

18. "spare." Litterally, keep alive for yourselves," that is, the surviving captives are to be saved for the Israelite warriors.​

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Cohen goes on to note (in note 52):

I do not know why the hew Jewish version omits for yourself; the Hebrew lakhem is unambiguous.That the intent of for yourself is sexual or matrimonial is obvious; ...​

So, for example, Sefaria renders Num 31:17-18 as follows:

​

וְעַתָּ֕ה הִרְג֥וּ כׇל־זָכָ֖ר בַּטָּ֑ף וְכׇל־אִשָּׁ֗ה יֹדַ֥עַת אִ֛ישׁ לְמִשְׁכַּ֥ב זָכָ֖ר הֲרֹֽגוּ׃

Now, therefore, slay every male among the noncombatants, and slay also every woman who has known a man carnally;​

​

וְכֹל֙ הַטַּ֣ף בַּנָּשִׁ֔ים אֲשֶׁ֥ר לֹא־יָדְע֖וּ מִשְׁכַּ֣ב זָכָ֑ר הַחֲי֖וּ לָכֶֽם׃

but spare every female noncombatant who has not had carnal relations with a man.​

While the JPS Women's Commentary notes:

18. "spare." Litterally, keep alive for yourselves," that is, the surviving captives are to be saved for the Israelite warriors.​

Yes, the intent is obvious.

Now, then, let's ask the question from the virgin girl's point of view: "So, honey, this guy murdered your mom, dad and brother, so you can love him, right?"

I call it rape, and rape it is.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes, the intent is obvious.

Now, then, let's ask the question from the virgin girl's point of view: "So, honey, this guy murdered your mom, dad and brother, so you can love him, right?"

I call it rape, and rape it is.

OK. I would only add that you seem more addicted to the vitriol than committed to the clarity. I, for one, have no love for the misogyny found in the Tanakh.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

OK. I would only add that you seem more addicted to the vitriol than committed to the clarity. I, for one, have no love for the misogyny found in the Tanakh.

Well, that was the intent of the thread. Not so much "addicted to the vitriol" as staying on message.

 

[DNB]

Numbers 31:18 "But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

And what do you suppose they were going to do with "women children" who have not know men? Needlework? You don't need to be a virgin for that!

Marriage, would be my understanding, for sure. That's why He emphasized chaste.