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Special Pleading and the Problem of Evil

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Why wouldn’t preventing future suffering as I described in my last post not be beneficial? Are you suggesting that God should created a world where no suffering would have been possible in which case we would never need to learn any lessons? Why would be the purpose of such a life where we never need to learn anything from our mistakes? Are we going to spend our whole lives just enjoying ourselves? If we have a job is God going to be sure we never suffer in our work? If we get married is God going to be sure we have a happy marriage so we never suffer? If we go to college is God going to do all our homework so we won’t have to suffer to earn a degree and we can party hardy? If we have children is God going to prevent the pain of childbirth?

What kind of a world would this be? Have you ever thought this through? Do you realize that older people who have suffered and learned a lot of hard lessons have something to teach the younger generation? I sure wish I had someone who cared enough about me to help me when I was I my 20s and early 30s, because my life could have been a lot different if someone had cared enough.

The first thing I need to do in my response here is to make an important distinction that you might not be aware about (because it is made in a different post of mine, the one called Toy Worlds and the Problem of Evil). That distinction is this: if free will is to exist, then even an omnipotent/omniscient God cannot prevent all forms of suffering, such as unrequited love, broken friendship, perhaps boredom while studying, things such as this. God is not culpable for any of these forms of suffering because they are necessary and unpreventable consequences of free will (given the premise that we want to have free will).

However, physical suffering does not have to exist in order to have free will; and an omnipotent/omniscient God could prevent physical suffering from existing. I realize that in a lot of prior posts I have shortened this by saying "suffering," but if you go back to the beginning of this series of posts, I have always meant physical suffering only when I'm saying "suffering." That's also why the chosen example (leukemia) is a physical example.

With that in mind, let me answer your questions. To be clear, these will all be answered under the understanding that an omnipotent/omniscient God could create a world in which physical suffering does not exist, because it is preventable without interfering with free will. Emotional suffering can't be prevented without also preventing free will from existing entirely.

Why wouldn’t preventing future suffering as I described in my last post not be beneficial? Because learning not to touch a hot stove top doesn't help you if the stove top is never going to burn you in the future, it would be useless experience. You never have to suffer in the first place to learn it if it is never going to cause you suffering at all.

Are you suggesting that God should created a world where no suffering would have been possible in which case we would never need to learn any lessons? Yes, as long as we're talking about physical suffering and lessons from physical suffering. Once again, there is no need to burn our fingers to learn not to touch the hot stove if the hot stove can never harm us.

Why would be the purpose of such a life where we never need to learn anything from our mistakes? We would still be capable of making mistakes: if we are jerks, we might lose our friends or loved ones. If we are vain and brash, we might never learn new knowledge since we might assume that we already know everything. In a world without physical suffering, there is still growth; there just aren't things like diseases and deformities and burns and things like this. There aren't innocent victims of violence (because guns would not hurt people, for instance).

We would still have the same kinds of purposes: we can wake up and choose which friends to hang out with that day, which movie to go watch, what new things we want to learn, what poetry to write. The only difference is that we can't needlessly be physically hurt or maimed while going about our business.

Are we going to spend our whole lives just enjoying ourselves? I'm sure there would still be tedium due to the tasks we set out for ourselves. Learning a new subject would still be difficult, navigating social nuances would still be difficult. There would still be roadbumps in life to overcome; just not bodily harm.

If we have a job is God going to be sure we never suffer in our work? God can't save us from boredom (while maintaining free will), but God could certainly save us from having a hand severed off.

If we get married is God going to be sure we have a happy marriage so we never suffer? Even an omnipotent and omniscient being couldn't do this while maintaining free will. So in this case, there's not much God could do: it is up to the humans to prevent suffering. God is not culpable for this kind of suffering.

If we go to college is God going to do all our homework so we won’t have to suffer to earn a degree and we can party hardy? Here's another example where God can't do much. We would still need to learn things we're interested in, and that takes work and dedication for it to pay off. That is not something God is culpable for because it's necessary for free will. Physical injury is not necessary for free will.

If we have children is God going to prevent the pain of childbirth? Yes, this is something God is culpable for (by setting up the laws of physics, chemistry, and biology such that this brings suffering). So yes, this is something that can be prevented without affecting free will.

I never claimed that it did as I never claimed that all suffering is beneficial. However, there is recompense from God for children and others who suffer through no fault of their own and just because you don’t believe it does not mean it does not exist.

Just to be clear, are you saying that some suffering is not beneficial, but not prevented by God?

The problem with this would mean God deliberately (remember, because infallible/omnipotent/omniscient) created suffering that is not beneficial: this would not be congruent with omnibenevolence.

If you try to rescue this by saying God gives "recompense" for doing so, that doesn't save omnibenevolence: if I slap someone and then give them something nice, I'm still not omnibenevolent because I slapped them -- even though I did something nice afterwards.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Please read this post of yours and tell me why you have mentioned free will:

What was the purpose of mentioning free will?
Koldo said: Why would we need to give up free will to prevent all suffering?

Trailblazer said: Because as long as people have free will to make choices, some people will choose to do evil.
``````````````````````````````````````
So as long as people are free to choose evil there will be suffering that is the result of evil deeds people choose.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yet what God created resulted in a series of causes and effects that would NOT have happened the way they did if God were to change what it started one way or another.
It could have been different if God had created the world differently, but if God created the world with a certain purpose for humans then God knew what He was doing the first time since God is all-knowing, so there would be no reason to start over.
You like to think humans have free will, but we can't choose differently from what God knows will happen, right?

Is there any case where God is wrong about knowing the future?
God knows what we will choose but God’s foreknowledge is not what causes us to choose what we choose. We have our own will so we make our own choices and act upon them. God simply knows what those choices will be because God is all-knowing.
No, whatever exists does so because your God designed and created it. That includes the series of consequences that result in cancers in little children. I'm not attributing anything to your God, I'm saying if cancers exist and your God knew they would come to exist in what it created it was either an accident (and God is not perfect) or it was deliberate.
No, whatever happened after the world was created is not God’s doing because God is not controlling what is happening in this world.

God’s foreknowledge is not the cause of what we see in the world so God knowing that cancer would develop did not cause the cancer to develop.
Since cancers exist in the creation that God made I don't see how you can blame the process of creation and not the creator who KNEW cancers would occur. How does something God not like result in what it creates?
I don’t blame the process of creation and I don’t blame God. What does someone or something have to be to blame? **** happens and sometimes nobody is to blame. But we do know what causes cancers so we should focus on the cause and try to find a cure for cancers.

Knowing is unrelated to causation. An astronomer knows an eclipse will occur 10 years from now but he does not cause the eclipse to occur. A weatherman knows a hurricane I going to come in a few days but he does not cause the hurricane.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Knowing is unrelated to causation. An astronomer knows an eclipse will occur 10 years from now but he does not cause the eclipse to occur. A weatherman knows a hurricane I going to come in a few days but he does not cause the hurricane.
Correct, knowing is not related to causation, but a "cause" is related to causation. Every "cause" is related to causation, including the uncaused cause.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
So as long as people are free to choose evil there will be suffering that is the result of evil deeds people choose.
And evil deeds are caused by the existence of evil. And evil is caused by the existence of the universe. And the universe is caused by.......?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And evil deeds are caused by the existence of evil. And evil is caused by the existence of the universe. And the universe is caused by.......?
No, evil is cause by humans who do evil acts because they do not obey the Laws of God. It has always been that way.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The first thing I need to do in my response here is to make an important distinction that you might not be aware about (because it is made in a different post of mine, the one called Toy Worlds and the Problem of Evil). That distinction is this: if free will is to exist, then even an omnipotent/omniscient God cannot prevent all forms of suffering, such as unrequited love, broken friendship, perhaps boredom while studying, things such as this. God is not culpable for any of these forms of suffering because they are necessary and unpreventable consequences of free will (given the premise that we want to have free will).
Okay, thanks for explaining that admittedly, I had not see that so I was unaware of your position on free will.
However, physical suffering does not have to exist in order to have free will; and an omnipotent/omniscient God could prevent physical suffering from existing. I realize that in a lot of prior posts I have shortened this by saying "suffering," but if you go back to the beginning of this series of posts, I have always meant physical suffering only when I'm saying "suffering." That's also why the chosen example (leukemia) is a physical example.

With that in mind, let me answer your questions. To be clear, these will all be answered under the understanding that an omnipotent/omniscient God could create a world in which physical suffering does not exist, because it is preventable without interfering with free will. Emotional suffering can't be prevented without also preventing free will from existing entirely.
As I said on the other thread, As long as physical bodies exist there will be physical suffering. There is not some other kind of physical body God could create that would not be subject to physical suffering. Physical bodies are subject to decomposition because they are comprised of physical elements that perish. If our physical bodies were not perishable we would live forever on this earth, but that is not what God intended for us. God intended for us to pass to a spiritual world when we die physically, where there will be no more physical pain or suffering.

Why would you even want a physical body when you could have a spiritual body comprised of spiritual elements? Most Christians believe that they will have a glorified physical body that will also be spiritual so they will still be able to eat and drink and have sex after they die physically. This is a complete fantasy and the Bible does not say that anywhere. The Bible says that after we die we will be raised in a spiritual body, which is exactly what Baha’is believe we will have in the spiritual world after we cast off this physical body.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194
Why wouldn’t preventing future suffering as I described in my last post not be beneficial? Because learning not to touch a hot stove top doesn't help you if the stove top is never going to burn you in the future, it would be useless experience. You never have to suffer in the first place to learn it if it is never going to cause you suffering at all.

Are you suggesting that God should created a world where no suffering would have been possible in which case we would never need to learn any lessons? Yes, as long as we're talking about physical suffering and lessons from physical suffering. Once again, there is no need to burn our fingers to learn not to touch the hot stove if the hot stove can never harm us.

Why would be the purpose of such a life where we never need to learn anything from our mistakes? We would still be capable of making mistakes: if we are jerks, we might lose our friends or loved ones. If we are vain and brash, we might never learn new knowledge since we might assume that we already know everything. In a world without physical suffering, there is still growth; there just aren't things like diseases and deformities and burns and things like this. There aren't innocent victims of violence (because guns would not hurt people, for instance).

We would still have the same kinds of purposes: we can wake up and choose which friends to hang out with that day, which movie to go watch, what new things we want to learn, what poetry to write. The only difference is that we can't needlessly be physically hurt or maimed while going about our business.

Are we going to spend our whole lives just enjoying ourselves? I'm sure there would still be tedium due to the tasks we set out for ourselves. Learning a new subject would still be difficult, navigating social nuances would still be difficult. There would still be roadbumps in life to overcome; just not bodily harm.

If we have a job is God going to be sure we never suffer in our work? God can't save us from boredom (while maintaining free will), but God could certainly save us from having a hand severed off.

If we get married is God going to be sure we have a happy marriage so we never suffer? Even an omnipotent and omniscient being couldn't do this while maintaining free will. So in this case, there's not much God could do: it is up to the humans to prevent suffering. God is not culpable for this kind of suffering.

If we go to college is God going to do all our homework so we won’t have to suffer to earn a degree and we can party hardy? Here's another example where God can't do much. We would still need to learn things we're interested in, and that takes work and dedication for it to pay off. That is not something God is culpable for because it's necessary for free will. Physical injury is not necessary for free will.

If we have children is God going to prevent the pain of childbirth? Yes, this is something God is culpable for (by setting up the laws of physics, chemistry, and biology such that this brings suffering). So yes, this is something that can be prevented without affecting free will.

Since I do not believe it would serve any purpose for God to provide us with a physical body that would not be subject to suffering I am not going to respond to all these points, but I will offer a quote that explains what I do believe that God is responsible for so you will know.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

And WHY is man forced to endure them? Because God set it up that way and God determines some of our fate. That is a pretty long list, so God is not off the hook in my opinion.
Just to be clear, are you saying that some suffering is not beneficial, but not prevented by God?
That is what I am saying because I don’t believe that God prevents any suffering unless He answers prayers.
The problem with this would mean God deliberately (remember, because infallible/omnipotent/omniscient) created suffering that is not beneficial: this would not be congruent with omnibenevolence.
No, I am going around that block again because I do not believe that God deliberately created suffering of any kind. To say that God intended that there be suffering only means that He designed a world in which He knew suffering would exist, but I do not believe God causes people to suffer deliberately .Moreover, I am not going to say God is omnibenevolent because that is not I the Baha’i Writings. God is benevolent but there are times when God is wrathful, if the occasion calls for wrath. In other words, God is not always loving.
If you try to rescue this by saying God gives "recompense" for doing so, that doesn't save omnibenevolence: if I slap someone and then give them something nice, I'm still not omnibenevolent because I slapped them -- even though I did something nice afterwards.
Again, you can chalk up the omnibenevolence because I do not believe that God has that attribute. Nevertheless, I have felt the same way about the recompense in the next life because I don’t feel it is fair for some people to suffer so much in this life and then have to wait for a recompense in the next life, especially if they do not have a religion that teaches they will get one. Even though I do not think it is fair to have to wait, I fully believe there will be a recompense because I have complete faith in the promises of Baha’u’llah.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Okay, thanks for explaining that admittedly, I had not see that so I was unaware of your position on free will.

As I said on the other thread, As long as physical bodies exist there will be physical suffering. There is not some other kind of physical body God could create that would not be subject to physical suffering. Physical bodies are subject to decomposition because they are comprised of physical elements that perish. If our physical bodies were not perishable we would live forever on this earth, but that is not what God intended for us. God intended for us to pass to a spiritual world when we die physically, where there will be no more physical pain or suffering.

Why would you even want a physical body when you could have a spiritual body comprised of spiritual elements? Most Christians believe that they will have a glorified physical body that will also be spiritual so they will still be able to eat and drink and have sex after they die physically. This is a complete fantasy and the Bible does not say that anywhere. The Bible says that after we die we will be raised in a spiritual body, which is exactly what Baha’is believe we will have in the spiritual world after we cast off this physical body.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194


Since I do not believe it would serve any purpose for God to provide us with a physical body that would not be subject to suffering I am not going to respond to all these points, but I will offer a quote that explains what I do believe that God is responsible for so you will know.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

And WHY is man forced to endure them? Because God set it up that way and God determines some of our fate. That is a pretty long list, so God is not off the hook in my opinion.

That is what I am saying because I don’t believe that God prevents any suffering unless He answers prayers.

No, I am going around that block again because I do not believe that God deliberately created suffering of any kind. To say that God intended that there be suffering only means that He designed a world in which He knew suffering would exist, but I do not believe God causes people to suffer deliberately .Moreover, I am not going to say God is omnibenevolent because that is not I the Baha’i Writings. God is benevolent but there are times when God is wrathful, if the occasion calls for wrath. In other words, God is not always loving.

Again, you can chalk up the omnibenevolence because I do not believe that God has that attribute. Nevertheless, I have felt the same way about the recompense in the next life because I don’t feel it is fair for some people to suffer so much in this life and then have to wait for a recompense in the next life, especially if they do not have a religion that teaches they will get one. Even though I do not think it is fair to have to wait, I fully believe there will be a recompense because I have complete faith in the promises of Baha’u’llah.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

If omnibenevolence is off the table, then the Problem of Evil does not apply to this conception of God; there's no longer any contradiction. :)
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Koldo said: Why would we need to give up free will to prevent all suffering?

Trailblazer said: Because as long as people have free will to make choices, some people will choose to do evil.
``````````````````````````````````````
So as long as people are free to choose evil there will be suffering that is the result of evil deeds people choose.

You brought up free will to justify the existence of evil deeds. Why did you feel like evil deeds have to be justified?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The first thing I need to do in my response here is to make an important distinction that you might not be aware about (because it is made in a different post of mine, the one called Toy Worlds and the Problem of Evil). That distinction is this: if free will is to exist, then even an omnipotent/omniscient God cannot prevent all forms of suffering, such as unrequited love, broken friendship, perhaps boredom while studying, things such as this. God is not culpable for any of these forms of suffering because they are necessary and unpreventable consequences of free will (given the premise that we want to have free will).
I'm not sure I'd necessarily make that assumption.

Plenty of the theists who believe in the sort of god to which the Problem of Evil applies also believe - as a tenet of their faith - that their god not only has the ability to create a world with no suffering whatsoever where free will is maintained, but has actually done it (i.e. Heaven).
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well...
If evil deeds are not justified, the problem of evil persists.
Evil deeds committed by humans are not justified because humans have no excuse since God has revealed Laws that people should obey.

The Problem of Evil is is an illogical creation of atheists, There is no problem with God being benevolent except the one they imagine.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Evil deeds committed by humans are not justified because humans have no excuse since God has revealed Laws that people should obey.

The Problem of Evil is is an illogical creation of atheists, There is no problem with God being benevolent except the one they imagine.

There is a misunderstanding here.
By not being justified I meant the logical contradiction persists.
Why did you feel the need to evoke free will as an excuse for evil existing? What's wrong with evil?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I'm not sure I'd necessarily make that assumption.

Plenty of the theists who believe in the sort of god to which the Problem of Evil applies also believe - as a tenet of their faith - that their god not only has the ability to create a world with no suffering whatsoever where free will is maintained, but has actually done it (i.e. Heaven).

Though I'm not sure how this could be the case, it's not intuitive anyway. How to prevent broken friendships, unrequited love, boredom, etc.? If there is a will that is free, it would have to be a completely different will. Different will, different person.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Though I'm not sure how this could be the case, it's not intuitive anyway. How to prevent broken friendships, unrequited love, boredom, etc.? If there is a will that is free, it would have to be a completely different will. Different will, different person.
It may very well be that it's impossible... but offhand, it seems to me that there wouldn't be the suffering of interpersonal relationships if there were no interpersonal relationships.

I've heard some theists describe Heaven as just basking in "God's glory" for eternity (which, somehow, never gets boring). I assume that this would mean no friendships, love interests, etc.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
It may very well be that it's impossible... but offhand, it seems to me that there wouldn't be the suffering of interpersonal relationships if there were no interpersonal relationships.

I've heard some theists describe Heaven as just basking in "God's glory" for eternity (which, somehow, never gets boring). I assume that this would mean no friendships, love interests, etc.

There are more than a few horror movies that sound like that.
 
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