Spirit or Superstition?

[JJ50]

It is people who follow the unpleasant JW cult's ghastly dogma who are the trolls, imo.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

How about we get back to the original topic?

"Could you retain your faith and belief in God without believing in the strange and miraculous accounts in the Bible? Is a belief in 'the spirit' of God behind everything enough for you? "

Thanks.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I never said that. Please consult the straw man you invented. Also QED:

"Donald Trump went to Syria one morning. He dug a large hole in the ground and stepped into it and they covered him over with straw and pitch. He stayed there for 40 days and 40 nights and after that Netanyahu helped him out and they both converted to Islam."

Real people. Real places. But the story is completely false, as it would be if I was trying to make a mathematical sum with gematria and I thought it would be fun and impressive to my fellow scribes if I made a story say that.

I may have misunderstood your OP, which said, and seems to support your statements above, that "I argue that many of the so-called miracles and supernatural happenings in the Bible are not true accounts, but are there because of underlying gematria calculations the scribes were setting down."

So 40 teams of authors--since gematria of a HIGH order is prevalent throughout each passage of both testaments--made "fun and impressive" texts that are univocal and contain thousands of facts verified by natural law, science, history and archeaology--why?

The gematria of the Bible strengthens its veracity rather than undermines it, unless we interpose your theory--that authors worked INCREDIBLY hard to produce gematria to prop up false Creation, Flood and Israel origin myths, etc.

 

[dybmh]

How about we get back to the original topic?

"Could you retain your faith and belief in God without believing in the strange and miraculous accounts in the Bible? Is a belief in 'the spirit' of God behind everything enough for you? "

Thanks.

The simple answer for me is: Yes. My belief in God is based on my own personal experiences and the experiences of my friends, family, co-workers, and acquaintances.

Would you do me a favour and read my paper on academia.edu and then do a brief review here for the other participants?

I read the paper titled "The Gematria Substrate". These are the elements which, IMHO, would benefit from additional support.

1) More information on the source of Biblical Gematria ( Alexander Crowley? ) vs. Standard Gematria would be helpful, at least for me.
2) It seems that most of the examples provided are intended to have an impact because the result of the calculation is either 777, 248, 365, or a multiple of 7. To me, this is less compelling than the other examples which provide a link between the subject matter discussed in the verse.
3) The Talmudic example ( Lag B'Omer vs Gal B'Omer ) is the most compelling, IMHO, but... this example is Standard Gematria isn't it? There is no Shin or Tav in this example. See below...
4) In the paper Standard Gematria is determined to be wrong and Biblical Gematria is determined to be right. The same claim is made in this thread, BTW. For me, I think there is merit to the idea that Biblical Gematria is correct. But that doesn't mean that Standard Gematria is incorrect. Both could be correct if the verses have multiple codes embedded in them.
5) The Canaanite connection I think has a lot of merit and should be explored more. What stands out to me is that in the Biblical Gematria wheel in the paper, Reish is central. Reish is the highest numeric value. All spokes lead off of Reish. Reish represents the serpent? The serpent was part of the Canaanite pantheon? Possibly a central figure? It makes me wonder if the Biblical Gematria is a subtle shift in Standard Gematria which validates the Canaanite religion? The question is, chicken vs. egg. Which came first? Did the biblical verses come first and then the Biblical Gematria was discovered after? Was the Biblical Gematria skillfully and intentionally written into the verses by Canaanite scribes? A "where's waldo" hidden picture in numbers? Was God involved in any of this?

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

I may have misunderstood your OP, which said, and seems to support your statements above, that "I argue that many of the so-called miracles and supernatural happenings in the Bible are not true accounts, but are there because of underlying gematria calculations the scribes were setting down."

So 40 teams of authors--since gematria of a HIGH order is prevalent throughout each passage of both testaments--made "fun and impressive" texts that are univocal and contain thousands of facts verified by natural law, science, history and archeaology--why?

The gematria of the Bible strengthens its veracity rather than undermines it, unless we interpose your theory--that authors worked INCREDIBLY hard to produce gematria to prop up false Creation, Flood and Israel origin myths, etc.

First of all, I'd like to reiterate that although there is a treasure trove of gematria in the Bible, not all books of the Bible have it. In every line of Genesis 1-2 there is gematria, and the scribal motivation there was to link each step of creation with a letter corresponding to a path or a palace of the Seven Palaces, which was a map of the cosmos as ancient Israelites and Canaanites saw it. In that specific case, I believe the gematria is of a sober character composed as a reverence to YHVH Elohim, and yes, the scribes worked incredibly hard at it. They genuinely believed that the heavens and the earth was brought into being with the agency of the letters according to the conformations of the Seven Palaces.

Not all gematria is so high minded however. For instance, Ezekiel goes out of his way to pull the whiskers of the King of Tyre, basically sending him the message - 'don't get above yourself King, you're not the only one that knows the secrets of the Merkabah.' These scribes weren't hiding messages in the bible for the likes of us. They expected their gematria to be decoded by their peers and contemporaries, and its probable that a rather good composition would receive praise and admiration. To clarify, I'm not suggesting social validation is the main reason these men were composing gematria, but at the same time I think it helped to keep the art and practice alive in their communities. Everyone likes a bit of a pat on the back when they've worked hard and well, and that's just a natural part of social dynamics.

It is because these scribes expected their texts to be understood by their peers, that they weren't overly concerned about misleading anyone with accounts of fiery horses or burning bushes. In any case, if a non-Jewish foreigner was to read them I expect they would have said that goyim had no business reading their material anyway, and they wouldn't have been concerned if he did read it and got the wrong idea.

Although the Song of Solomon isn't composed with gematria, it is a wonderful work that is full of allegory. The Torah is likened to a bride, and the scribe writes; "Your lips, my bride, drip sweetness like the honeycomb; honey and milk are under your tongue" which the Rabbis interpret as meaning that the Torah and all it's clothing (the secrets of the Merkabah & the account of creation) is for them, not for outsiders who are not taught the 'Sod' (the secret means of Exegesis).

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

The simple answer for me is: Yes. My belief in God is based on my own personal experiences and the experiences of my friends, family, co-workers, and acquaintances.


I read the paper titled "The Gematria Substrate". These are the elements which, IMHO, would benefit from additional support.

1) More information on the source of Biblical Gematria ( Alexander Crowley? ) vs. Standard Gematria would be helpful, at least for me.
2) It seems that most of the examples provided are intended to have an impact because the result of the calculation is either 777, 248, 365, or a multiple of 7. To me, this is less compelling than the other examples which provide a link between the subject matter discussed in the verse.
3) The Talmudic example ( Lag B'Omer vs Gal B'Omer ) is the most compelling, IMHO, but... this example is Standard Gematria isn't it? There is no Shin or Tav in this example. See below...
4) In the paper Standard Gematria is determined to be wrong and Biblical Gematria is determined to be right. The same claim is made in this thread, BTW. For me, I think there is merit to the idea that Biblical Gematria is correct. But that doesn't mean that Standard Gematria is incorrect. Both could be correct if the verses have multiple codes embedded in them.
5) The Canaanite connection I think has a lot of merit and should be explored more. What stands out to me is that in the Biblical Gematria wheel in the paper, Reish is central. Reish is the highest numeric value. All spokes lead off of Reish. Reish represents the serpent? The serpent was part of the Canaanite pantheon? Possibly a central figure? It makes me wonder if the Biblical Gematria is a subtle shift in Standard Gematria which validates the Canaanite religion? The question is, chicken vs. egg. Which came first? Did the biblical verses come first and then the Biblical Gematria as discovered after? Was the Biblical Gematria skillfully and intentionally written into the verses by Canaanite scribes? A "where's waldo" hidden picture in numbers? Was God involved in any of this?

Thank you! Much appreciated. The Gematria Substrate is an introduction to the subject, and matters that are not explored there are tackled in The Genesis Wheel. Its a paper intended to prove Gematria in the Bible rather than explain it all. I'll respond to you here for clarification though, as you're a nice fellow;

1) The source of Biblical Gematria: imho I think numbers were inherent to the letters from the earliest days, and it may even be that the 22 letters of the alephbet were distinguished from others in the PCS syllabary because they were being used as a discrete number set. That needs to be researched, by someone in Israel (unless anyone wants to buy me a ticket?). All Aleister Crowley did when he discovered the Seven Palaces (and thus the correct number set) was to transliterate the Hebrew into English and then he wrote 'The Book of the Law' with it. He used digraphs for letters such as Cheth, Shin and Tav which has kept his gematria work off the radar.

2) I agree, and I'm thinking of adding more examples from the Talmud where there is commentary, but on the other hand the Talmud deserves a special paper to itself. Work in progress...

3) No, it's biblical gematria. The Shin and the Tav retain their values of 3 and 4 even when placed at the end of the Alephbet. Therefore;
מנסעף צק רשת אב = 700. We only see the shin and the tav take their place besides gimel and daleth in Genesis 1-2, so I think that was a secret of the Temple Priests.

4) There's nothing wrong with your hypothesis but I haven't seen any evidence for this in the Bible. In the Talmud or the works of Kabbalah, definitely.

5) I go into the Canaanite connection in the Genesis Wheel, and include information about Mesopotamia too; i.e. Inanna descending through the Seven Gates of the underworld.

a. The pictogram of the Resh is a head. The Nun was the serpent. The Resh carries the meaning of first, top, leader and beginning, so the last letter carries the meaning of the first (possible there was allegory in the words of Jesus about that). The Resh appears to have a Solar/Lunar quality, similar to the Egyptian idea of the Solar barge that carries the souls of the dead through the underworld and the souls of new borns to earth (the Egyptians were 'the tears of Ra'), so as well as the Resh being central to the figure it has a path between the Daleth (door) into the world and the Palace of the Heh which represented the light arriving on the earth.

b. Standard Gematria is a much later invention than Biblical Gematria, probably being introduced a little bit earlier than the Tannaitic period. It's useful as a key to Biblical Isopsephy. We change the values of the Greek letters (Standard Isopsephy) into Biblical Isopsephy by copying how Standard Gematria is converted into Biblical Gematria (the Tav 400, becoming 4, the Kaph sofit 500 to 20 etc). Thus we prove that the Biblical Isopsephy of the Christians was ported from the Biblical Gematria of the Jews.

c. I don't believe the Canaanites wrote any of the Bible. They may have had a numerical version of the Seven Palaces, but there was a time when (according to Mark Smith) Israelite culture and Canaanite culture was practically indistinguishable, and that's why the Canaanite connection informs us about the Israelite connection too. The gematria of the Bible was written by Israelites. There's no question about that. Also - although the scribes may have followed the creation story of the Babylonians in general, they weren't copying it directly. Genesis 1-2 is an original composition, and the gematria of the text clearly confirms that. It also debunks the documentary hypothesis.

d. Where's God in this? He's the subject of the text, creating the heavens and the earth. He's within the darkness of the Temple's D'bir, sitting on the wings of the Cherubs. He rides the clouds in his Chariot, lord of all that he surveys, inspiring the awe and tribute of scribes that write about him and compose their gematria to him.

 

[sojourner]

Program what? What is a mystic exactly?


Sometimes there is no "AND".



Because God does.



Its amazing how some people think that they can do that.



Ouch.....viper's tongue too.....? I wasn't aware that I was speaking for God...just reiterating what is said in his word.

Snark much? Most of your replies weren’t cogent to the points she was trying to make — just so much meaningless static. You mock what you don’t understand.

 

[sojourner]

I like the Baha’i religion. I find the emphasis on the unity of science and religion to be refreshing and ahead of its time, and I think that eventually if we turn back from the destruction of the planet, the bird that is humanity will fly with both wings (of science and religion). But right now, superstition has its grip around many human hearts, and people are choosing to escape into fantasy and delusion right at the moment that we need them to step up to the bar and take action on climate change. I’m pleased that members of the Baha’i religion won’t be wrestling with cognitive dissonance as a consequence of my book.

I hope to help lessen superstitious attitudes, but I think many adults who take the bible literally are beyond my help. They are using the Bible and also political myth making as an egoic defense, and so take any evidence contrary to their beliefs as a personal attack which they feel entitled to respond to with a counter-attack. In the USA there are many people who have not developed a true personality, but rely on multiple psychic functions which only work when they are stimulated from outside, otherwise they feel empty.

By clinging to the Jesus figure they give themselves a platform to attack the unbeliever and thus receive emotional energy from the person so attacked. They become addicted to emotional energy even while being uninterested in the source of that energy. Because people with similar psychological dysfunctions band together in an attempt to find strength in numbers (and also to hide) there is often not even the pretense of rationality behind their discourse, and where there is no rationality there can be no real morality either.

They imagine themselves to be the superheros they love to watch on TV. They imagine they are “the chosen ones of God”. They feel entitled to attention and empty without it. The ego is framed as the ‘ubermensch’ in their story and once more and they feel empowered to act beyond any consideration of good or evil. They have the president of America providing them narcissistic supply and the more he provokes emotional responses, the more they appreciate him for it. They don’t give a rat’s *** how immoral he is. He could start throwing Mexicans in the ovens tomorrow and his base would cheer and say “that served them damn spics right”, because that gets them even more attention. These people will not learn anything from my book, because they have already made ignorance holy. However, their children are a different matter. It is not too late for the children.

Hit the ding dang nail on the head here.

 

[sojourner]

My take on the Bible is very simple.....I don't believe that hidden codes achieve any greater understanding of it than the words themselves.

The Bible's message is simple, written for simple people with a basic understanding of a Creator God who simply said..."do as I ask"....."obey my laws". Because he loved his intelligent creation like children, nothing he asked of them was to their harm.

To hide things behind the words in some sort of numerical code and not give his worshippers the key is senseless to me. What do people outside of his worshippers know or care about God or the Bible anyway?
Instead of understanding the Bible's simple message, you end up with a complicated formula that only intellectuals can understand. Christendom has done the same by making "theology" something for which one needs a college degree. That excludes the very people that the Bible was written for.

I apply Jesus words....
"I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children." (Matthew 11:25)

Sometimes it's a handicap to be "wise and intellectual" because the simple things can insult your intelligence. You may find the deeper things more to your liking but it doesn't make anyone superior.

God wanted knowledge to be available to all.....he doesn't care about our intelligence....he cares about our heart more than he cares about our intellectual achievements. The KISS principle applies IMO.

I am happy to be a young child.

Happily, the texts are multivalent and layered with meaning, so it’s really a both/and proposition. There’s content for waders, content for swimmers, content for divers, content for drinkers, content for bathers.

 

[nPeace]

In my new book [The Genesis Wheel ~ out 1st August] I argue that many of the so-called miracles and supernatural happenings in the Bible are not true accounts, but are there because of underlying gematria calculations the scribes were setting down. I write:

"From the burning bush to the ascent of Elijah to heaven, all the really odd and supernatural narratives of the Bible that I have investigated have gematria behind them, and are explained by scribal motivation to compose a mathematical sum. While this may be upsetting to some people, I don’t think this is something that should cause anyone to lose their faith in the spirit of God ... There is a great difference between holding a belief in the Spirit, and in rank superstition. Why should a true personal relationship with the original divinity be predicated on cheap supernatural favor seeking rituals?"

I think after reading my book, many people will be persuaded that the miracles and strange tales of the Bible were not intended to be read as factual accounts. It is not my intention to impact upon anyone's belief in God however. My question is:

Could you retain your faith and belief in God without believing in the strange and miraculous accounts in the Bible? Is a belief in 'the spirit' of God behind everything enough for you?

I look forward to your considered replies.

Looking at this question, I am wondering where does one get a belief in "the spirit" of God.

 

[nPeace]

Many cultures have a creator deity. The Norse peoples had a primordial cow. Before the Bible the Sumerians knew Enlil, so I don't think the Bible is the cause of that belief, although it has shaped the way Abrahamic religions think of a creator God.

I'm thinking that since the Bible is a record, it means that people knew of a creator God, long before.
It seems the case that even though things were written down about God before, even though those may not have been preserved, the later record was preserved. Why? becomes, to me, a very important question. Why, in your opinion were these preserved?

It also shows me that people living in the Mesopotamia region, would obviously have gotten their ideas from people who worshipped before them, in some form or fashion - one of those ways of worship evidently being the original.
Could that have been the true way set by the creator God?
The Biblical record says this was exactly the case.

Today, many people believe the Bible proves to be an accurate and reliable record.

 

[nPeace]

Well there ya go talk to my redheaded daughter!!! Lovely leaf eh.
I keep saying keep quantifing as fundemental. We can quantify her oh sure. Is that correct? I know its not. I only really focus on the main topic god is love.not that hard. That cant be quanified and be true.



View attachment 31012

Lovely young girl.
I can actually see her in Paradise.
What a time of great rejoicing... and cake... minus the happy birthday song.

 

[nPeace]

How is the biblical God different from God? We may believe in God no matter how different people from different cultures perceive divinity historically. In fact one could argue that a belief in God requires that we frame our beliefs according to the knowledge of our times in order for it to stay relevant to our species and in our own lives.

How did anyone get a belief in God, is a valid question, I believe?

 

[nPeace]

I do believe the Bible. And yes obviously it's full of gematria but I believe God uses numbers also. I don't think all of the Bible was purposefully encoded with gematria by humans. Although parts of it may have been. There is a generic side of gematria and of course the human element that is done purposefully.

But that's just my point. My research of gematria and numerology in general has led me to the conclusion that no humans do gematria or numerology magic without help. They must have spirits to help them do it on at least the 5th dimension. Think of geometry but beyond the 3rd or even 4th dimensions. So we're talking about something that is beyond mere humans. Therefore they must have help to achieve it. The results of this magic done on the 5th dimension then manifest themselves in bizarre and inexplicable ways in our own reality. To help us understand how; we should look to the whole analogy of our 3d selves interacting with a 2d world that is called "flat land". Probably you are already familiar with the analogy so I won't go into details.

My point is, that the writers of the Bible could not have done all the gematria by themselves. God did it. And as for magicians that use the magic of numerology or gematria they cannot do it either without the help of demons. So there is satanic gematria and in the Bible: God's gematria.

I'm wondering, why don't people reason that the Genesis Wheel, the Gematria, was based off of the creation account? Why the other way around?

 

[David T]

Lovely young girl.
I can actually see her in Paradise.
What a time of great rejoicing... and cake... minus the happy birthday song.

Aww sweet of you. Really she is always in paradise. She is a bit of that amongst us when You see her.

I ronically i was just having this discussion with some of our more scientific minded. I actually gave up on it. I said the word defect is not a scientific Word bit an illusionary value that we place on nature. Nature does not cannot create defects impossible. When you say that all you see are the leaves you do not see the life hiding behind the leaves. You saw her through the mask the facade thank you

. Mother nature? Father god? loves to fool the eye but the heart reveals the truth. Here is my leaf bug. And btw they insisted defect was a proper scientific term they only see the leaves. Love hides in the open!

 

[Deeje]

You mock what you don’t understand.

Actually, I was mocking someone who gave a detailed description of what I was doing wrong, but didn't recognize that she was doing it herself......I understand that much, but the whole gematria thing is meaningless to those who see no hidden code, nor a need for one. The Bible stands alone as the word of God...rock solid and dependable.....available to all...not just a few who have the key to this sacred and mysterious knowledge.

 

[Deeje]

Aww sweet of you. Really she is always in paradise. She is a bit of that amongst us when You see her.

I ronically i was just having this discussion with some of our more scientific minded. I actually gave up on it. I said the word defect is not a scientific Word bit an illusionary value that we place on nature. Nature does not cannot create defects impossible. When you say that all you see are the leaves you do not see the life hiding behind the leaves. You saw her through the mask the facade thank you

. Mother nature? Father god? loves to fool the eye but the heart reveals the truth. Here is my leaf bug. And btw they insisted defect was a proper scientific term they only see the leaves. Love hides in the open! View attachment 31084

I love the way you explained that! Its so true.

 

[Kk4mds]

How about we get back to the original topic?

"Could you retain your faith and belief in God without believing in the strange and miraculous accounts in the Bible? Is a belief in 'the spirit' of God behind everything enough for you? "

Thanks.

My religion starts off with an absolute belief in G-d. All else flows from there. It is not the historical validity of Torah that supports us, but the teachings of G-d that are contained therein. While historical and anthropological evidence has been found supporting the broad history contained in Torah, in the long run it doesn’t matter. What does matter is G-d teaching us righteousness.

When asked to explain all of Torah, Hillel said, “What is evil to you do not do to others. All the rest is commentary.” That is what important about Torah, not if G-d parted the Red Sea.

 

[nPeace]

Yes, the flood is entirely possible, but the details of the Noah story are for the purposes of gematria. The creation story likely originated in Mesopotamia but the details of it are all due to gematria and the conformations of the chambers of the Merkabah. There are broader strokes of truth to these stories but the detail of them was written for a different purpose than recording historical events. Sometimes they were written to produce numbers that were thought to be special to God and to revere him.

I will be right back ... and I'll demonstrate the gematria of the ascent of Elijah to heaven.

Is it not the case that people have long used numbers and symbols, as an aid to remembering things. We still do it today.
Numerology has only recently become common knowledge.
If men used this method as a form of remembering events which they would pass down to their future generations, then it is no surprise the things people claim to be myths, are actually true events that can be traced even by ancient numerology.

Additionally, if I wanted to lose my trail, from hunters with dogs, I would go to great lengths to lead them on a path away from mine.
Have you considered that this gematria, is actually one of those decoys?

 

[nPeace]

I'm sorry, but I don't believe the story of Jesus was one about a literal man. The early Christians ported biblical gematria across to the Greek script, and again... gematria. The value of the stories as moral teachings and guidance are not less for that fact, but Jesus was the personification of the Sunlight come to earth, and it was thought that the Sun died each night and was reborn each morning. If the Sun was unwilling to sacrifice himself by going down at night, what would happen to the world? It would burn. Therefore the Sun sacrifices himself to save us.

But hey, this is just my point of view. If you're happy believing in a living breathing Jesus then don't pay me and the numbers any attention.

As for the Adam and Eve story, the gematria analysis reveals a kinder and more loving God than dogma would originally have us believe, and he doesn't so much punish Adam and Eve as laments the fact that they will have to go to earth.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a ransom".

Doesn't history confirm "a living breathing Jesus"?