Spirit vs. Soul

[atanu]

Greetings,

The notions of 'soul' and 'spirit' are sometimes used interchangeably, but many religions also discern between them. I don't grasp at any particular theological beliefs, but sometimes feel that the Spirit may be something different from theology.

So what are the differences between the spirit and the soul? Is there any consensus on these matters whatsoever? Can they be tested somehow to determine their nature and purposes?

Thanks,

~SD

In advaita Vedanta terminology, soul is jiva ( the tongue of fire - the living being) and spirit is atman -- the pervading tattva.

As metaphors the following can approximately be used:

• Ocean is atman, the waves are the souls.
• Gold is atman, the different ornaments are the souls.
• Space is atman, variedly lighted space pockets are souls.

The reality of awareness and life abides in the atman -- in the general, and not in the particular shapes, wherein locally however, notions of separateness may exist from time to time. Clearing out such notions is moksha.

 

[Straw Dog]

The reality of awareness and life abides in the atman -- in the general, and not in the particular shapes, wherein locally however, notions of separateness may exist from time to time. Clearing out such notions is moksha.

Are such notions of seperateness also Brahman? Where do they come from?

 

[atanu]

Are such notions of seperateness also Brahman? Where do they come from?

Are your dreams same as you? No. Similarly the notions are not Brahman. These are called avidya -- false knowledge, as opposed to vidya -- right knowledge.

Notions are said to come from forgetfulness. The homogeneous sea will not know itself if not for the waves. Although the ocean knows itself as one, the waves tend to get the notion "I am this wave and there are other waves in this ocean universe".

 

[Runewolf1973]

The spirit tends towards detachment fom the physical. Through every incarnation we detach a little. We do not gain, we lose. Through this we realize our pure spirit nature...not earthbound, not attached to illusions or things of the physical.

 

[Straw Dog]

Are your dreams same as you? No. Similarly the notions are not Brahman. These are called avidya -- false knowledge, as opposed to vidya -- right knowledge.

Notions are said to come from forgetfulness. The homogeneous sea will not know itself if not for the waves. Although the ocean knows itself as one, the waves tend to get the notion "I am this wave and there are other waves in this ocean universe".

The issue I see with this understanding is that it doesn't seem to account for accountability. For instance, I cannot bear your responsibilities and you cannot bear my own. Or can we?

What divides us if not for differences in duty? Isn't that also what unites us as long as each is doing their own?

 

[atanu]

The issue I see with this understanding is that it doesn't seem to account for accountability. For instance, I cannot bear your responsibilities and you cannot bear my own. Or can we?

What divides us if not for differences in duty? Isn't that also what unites us as long as each is doing their own?

Excellent point. But that is not how consciousness works. In Yoga Vashishta, there is a verse that approximately says: Whatever exists in consciousness is true since consciousness is true.

In other words, whatever is done with a sense of doership has a karma kick back. The moment doership drops, the karma drops.

In other words, a dream hunger will need a dream burger. And a waking state hunger will require a waking state burger. The notions of self in these two states are different and the corresponding truths are different. The actions and reactions are then appropriate to the notion held.

I hope I could explain this point.

 

[Straw Dog]

Excellent point. But that is not how consciousness works. In Yoga Vashishta, there is a verse that approximately says: Whatever exists in consciousness is true since consciousness is true.

In other words, whatever is done with a sense of doership has a karma kick back. The moment doership drops, the karma drops.

In other words, a dream hunger will need a dream burger. And a waking state hunger will require a waking state burger. The notions of self in these two states are different and the corresponding truths are different. The actions and reactions are then appropriate to the notion held.

I hope I could explain this point.

Thanks for trying to clarify.

So everything is true in consciousness? We're both right even if we disagree?

What are we other than the law of causality taking total effect? Why reject karma whenever it is the material for expressing our creativity?

Could you elaborate on the two notions of self further? What about the self that doesn't hungry after an ideal but rather completely savors the moment as it is?

 

[atanu]

So everything is true in consciousness? We're both right even if we disagree?

Why else all the fights? All these are relative level truths,however, and each one's dream is true for that one alone.

What are we other than the law of causality taking total effect? Why reject karma whenever it is the material for expressing our creativity?

Karma yoga is basically renunciation of the individual doer ship, that is renunciation of the ego self with the understanding that it merely is a notion.

Could you elaborate on the two notions of self further? What about the self that doesn't hungry after an ideal but rather completely savors the moment as it is?

Whatever is faith/notion in consciousness that manifests as true since consciousness is true. In dream the self is made of light-shadow body and the world also is so. In deep sleep there is no body and there is no world. In waking, the notion of self is a solid body and the world is similar.

When the self has no hunger left at all--no desire left at all, either it goes to deep sleep (as in most of us) or it abides as partition less infinite, which some call sunya and some call the Atman/Brahman.

Note: All this is POV of vedanta, particularly advaita vedanta.

 

[Straw Dog]

Why else all the fights? All these are relative level truths,however, and each one's dream is true for that one alone.

So there are different dreams then and different dreamers?

Karma yoga is basically renunciation of the individual doer ship, that is renunciation of the ego self with the understanding that it merely is a notion.

What becomes responsible for the ego's karma after it has been cast aside as a mere notion?

Whatever is faith/notion in consciousness that manifests as true since consciousness is true. In dream the self is made of light-shadow body and the world also is so. In deep sleep there is no body and there is no world. In waking, the notion of self is a solid body and the world is similar.

When the self has no hunger left at all--no desire left at all, either it goes to deep sleep (as in most of us) or it abides as partition less infinite, which some call sunya and some call the Atman/Brahman.

Note: All this is POV of vedanta, particularly advaita vedanta.

Interesting. I'll have to contemplate it.

 

[atanu]

So there are different dreams then and different dreamers?

Yes. Many layers.

What becomes responsible for the ego's karma after it has been cast aside as a mere notion?

Without egoic fuel, the fire will die on its own.

Interesting. I'll have to contemplate it.

Eventually we all should be worry and pain free.

 

[Straw Dog]

Without egoic fuel, the fire will die on its own.

But is there any value in choosing to keep the fire burning simply for creativity's sake? Why treat it as something alien? I understand letting it burn out at its own pace, but we should at least give it a chance to dance as an expression of the deeper layers.

Eventually we all should be worry and pain free.

I'm feeling pretty worry and pain free right now. It's my day off even.

 

[jchristopher]

Greetings,

The notions of 'soul' and 'spirit' are sometimes used interchangeably, but many religions also discern between them. I don't grasp at any particular theological beliefs, but sometimes feel that the Spirit may be something different from theology.

So what are the differences between the spirit and the soul? Is there any consensus on these matters whatsoever? Can they be tested somehow to determine their nature and purposes?

Thanks,

~SD

The "spirit" of man is his eternal identity. God is the Eternal Father of our spirits. As spirits, we existed before our mortal birth and will continue after death. The "soul" of man is his spirit and physical body combined - sometimes referred to as a "living soul." God breathed into Adam's nostrils "the breath of life," which was Adam's eternal spirit, and he became a "living soul." At death, the spirit and body are separated for a time but will be reunited in the resurrection never again to be separated, thus becoming an eternal soul. I speak of the spirit and soul of man, not the Spirit of God.

 

[Straw Dog]

Hello jchristopher,

The "spirit" of man is his eternal identity. God is the Eternal Father of our spirits. As spirits, we existed before our mortal birth and will continue after death. The "soul" of man is his spirit and physical body combined - sometimes referred to as a "living soul." God breathed into Adam's nostrils "the breath of life," which was Adam's eternal spirit, and he became a "living soul." At death, the spirit and body are separated for a time but will be reunited in the resurrection never again to be separated, thus becoming an eternal soul. I speak of the spirit and soul of man, not the Spirit of God.

To clarify:

So all our spirits have a father? Do they have a mother as well?

If we existed eternally before our mortal births, then when were our spirits ever conceived in the first place?

 

[jchristopher]

Yes, all our spirits have a father who is God the eternal Father. Secondly, yes, we all have a heavenly mother as well, however, as far as I am aware, the scriptures do not explicitly refer to her, nor have I inquired of God the Father concerning her. Lastly, within our spirits exists a certain level of intelligence, which always existed and never was created, neither could it have been, because it always existed. But there was a point when God created for us spiritual bodies to house our intelligences so as to give us a spiritual identity and a means to continue acquiring intelligence. This was an expression of His love for us as is the gift of mortality. It's all a part of his plan to help us become more like He is. This is why he will resurrect us from the grave after death. You see, we were created in His image, even His physical image. We are the children of God.

 

[atanu]

But is there any value in choosing to keep the fire burning simply for creativity's sake? Why treat it as something alien? I understand letting it burn out at its own pace, but we should at least give it a chance to dance as an expression of the deeper layers.

If one works abiding fully in the wisdom of oneness, then the fire is not of the individual, and it is said that great creations are such.

I am feeling pretty worry and pain free right now. It's my day off even.

You are infectious, man.

 

[Straw Dog]

If one works abiding fully in the wisdom of oneness, then the fire is not of the individual, and it is said that great creations are such.

I don't know. There's probably nothing to really understand. I'm thinking now that my newfound sense of freedom isn't just about minimizing external influences, but gaining independence from my own thinking as well.

 

[Straw Dog]

Yes, all our spirits have a father who is God the eternal Father. Secondly, yes, we all have a heavenly mother as well, however, as far as I am aware, the scriptures do not explicitly refer to her, nor have I inquired of God the Father concerning her. Lastly, within our spirits exists a certain level of intelligence, which always existed and never was created, neither could it have been, because it always existed. But there was a point when God created for us spiritual bodies to house our intelligences so as to give us a spiritual identity and a means to continue acquiring intelligence. This was an expression of His love for us as is the gift of mortality. It's all a part of his plan to help us become more like He is. This is why he will resurrect us from the grave after death. You see, we were created in His image, even His physical image. We are the children of God.

Interesting POV. I don't have sufficient reason for accepting it, but thanks for sharing anyway.

 

[atanu]

I don't know. There's probably nothing to really understand. I'm thinking now that my newfound sense of freedom isn't just about minimizing external influences, but gaining independence from my own thinking as well.

Well said.

 

[idav]

Spirit and soul can be both the same thing. For those who believe them to be exclusive it could mean the difference between believing in rebirth vs reincarnation, a great spirit vs an individual spirit.

 

[jchristopher]

Interesting POV. I don't have sufficient reason for accepting it, but thanks for sharing anyway.

Do you at least have any questions about any of the specifics in my post?