Spiritual Enlightenment: what is it/what it is.

[Fool]

Considering the distance between hydrogen atoms is on the order of a meter in interstellar space, I would say that most square decimeters are empty.

In any case, it is certainly a vacuum.

Dark Energy, Dark Matter | Science Mission Directorate'
One explanation for dark energy is that it is a property of space. Albert Einstein was the first person to realize that empty space is not nothing. Space has amazing properties, many of which are just beginning to be understood. The first property that Einstein discovered is that it is possible for more space to come into existence. Then one version of Einstein's gravity theory, the version that contains a cosmological constant, makes a second prediction: "empty space" can possess its own energy. Because this energy is a property of space itself, it would not be diluted as space expands. As more space comes into existence, more of this energy-of-space would appear. As a result, this form of energy would cause the universe to expand faster and faster. Unfortunately, no one understands why the cosmological constant should even be there, much less why it would have exactly the right value to cause the observed acceleration of the universe.


But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the universe.

 

[godnotgod]

How would "you" know though? (I'm not meaning that as a body slam against you, btw.) If "you" are not around.... what is there to doing any realizing?

There is no 'you/I' that knows. No 'you/I' can make it happen. There is only Enlightenment itself, and its realization.

What 'you' are is not an ego that attains Enlightenment. You are just That.

Tat tvam asi, from one eternal moment to the next

 

[godnotgod]

On the contrary, we only need to know it is possible to wake to a higher level.

What I said: 'WAKE' [sic] to a higher level, not travel from one dream level to the next, without any awakening whatsoever, as you have been saying. How can you know what dreaming is unless you have been awake at one time, and vice versa?

Because experiences can miss reality. In fact, seldom is our experience that of reality.

The question had to do with no-thought, not with experience. Thought is a more round about way of getting at something, while direct seeing, without thought, is closer to it, no? To formulate thoughts about something is to create notions about it, whereas direct seeing is to look directly at or into the nature of things, ie introspection.

You are not a separate observer from Reality, as your thinking, conceptual mind would have you believe; you are Reality itself, so what does this suggest to you as regards your comment about 'missing reality'?

 

[godnotgod]

Snowflakes don't just appear to be different, they *are* different. yes, they are all composed of water, but that isn't enough to define a snowflake.



I understand the concept. I just find it to be flawed. We are each, individually, conscious...is a property that we have. That doesn't mean there is a single consciousness that divides to be each of us. Just like with the snowflakes, consciousness is *part* of who we are, but it isn't the *sum* of who we are.



Snowflakes are *composed* of water, but the water in my glass is not a snowflake. To be a snowflake is to be water *in a particular pattern* or range of patterns. Even an ice cube is not a snowflake even though both are frozen water. The commonality is in composition, not in being the same thing.

One might say that all snowflakes are temporal manifestations of the more permanent default state of water. So snowflakes are, in reality, water. They are formed from formless water, and return to formless water. Do not confuse form with things. A snowflake is just a form maintained by the condition of temperature and other factors. When the conditions are no longer present, there are no longer snowflakes. Likewise, there is no such thing as a whirlpool; there is only whirling water. Remove the energy from the water, and there is no more whirlpool. And, like snowflakes and whirlpools, we are at the root of our form, just consciousness, but not ego consciousness, which is nothing more than a temporal illusory state. When the conditions which maintain the ego are no more, the ego is no more, but consciousness is ongoing, both before and after the ego's presence. So who we really are is consciousness, without an agent of consciousness. And like the snowflake where water is the universal element, so too, consciousness is the default universal element that is us. When two observers have dropped all personal views, they will see the same Reality. Why would it be any other way?

 

[godnotgod]

Considering the distance between hydrogen atoms is on the order of a meter in interstellar space, I would say that most square decimeters are empty.

In any case, it is certainly a vacuum.

Must watch....

 

[YmirGF]

There is no 'you/I' that knows. No 'you/I' can make it happen. There is only Enlightenment itself, and its realization.

What 'you' are is not an ego that attains Enlightenment. You are just That.

Tat tvam asi, from one eternal moment to the next

Hmmmm. This just doesn't feel right. Play with me a bit. If Enlightenment is all that exists, any realization would be redundant. Due to its nature it already would be well aware of its "state", as it were, so there would be no need of realization. "My" realizing it would be meaningless as it would be abundantly obvious as part and parcel of its existential nature. The only way around this is if Enlightenment is an inert state prior to us getting there. We kindle the spark of realization... which points to the fact that we are in fact a very real and necessary part of a far larger reality.

Again, though, I've largely abandoned ideas of so-called enlightenment, but you are welcome to set me straight. As an aside, there must be a point WHY we moved away from this inherent knowing/realization. Like, to live a 100 billion lives to come back full circle to square one seems a bit of a circuitous route. Why? If we are that, why bother with the charade of incarnating into flesh an pretending otherwise?

What I said: 'WAKE' [sic] to a higher level, not travel from one dream level to the next, without any awakening whatsoever, as you have been saying. How can you know what dreaming is unless you have been awake at one time, and vice versa?

How would you be able to tell that you were not dreaming that you were awake though? By default one could not know the difference due to the nature of dreaming.

The question had to do with no-thought, not with experience. Thought is a more round about way of getting at something, while direct seeing, without thought, is closer to it, no?

Maybe, but not necessarily. I'm a big fan of the concept of "intuitive grasp" and yet just because you "get" something doesn't mean you understand or appreciate all the permutations surrounding it. There is a necessary lag between awareness and understanding. I'd even apply this to non-linear experience. Heck, it would likely take us longer to appreciate the subtleties of non-linear experience than that of ordinary (linear) experience due to the non-intuitive nature of said (non-linear) experience to our form of (linear) consciousness.

To formulate thoughts about something is to create notions about it, whereas direct seeing is to look directly at or into the nature of things, ie introspection.

Introspection is very much an analytical process though. For example, you can image yourself floating safely near a black hole and quietly observing the forces at work therein, but it is only after significant analysis of WHAT you are seeing that any true understanding will be arrived at.

You are not a separate observer from Reality, as your thinking, conceptual mind would have you believe; you are Reality itself, so what does this suggest to you as regards your comment about 'missing reality'?

I understand that this could just be a foible of language, but you have just told us that there is no "Me/I/self" so how could "you are Reality itself" possibly be true. It's like you want to have your cake and eat it too. You are reality, but you are really and illusion, as only reality exists. Oy vey.

 

[Araceli Cianna]

At some point I suppose I came to realize the possession of the truth is not all that important. What I found that was important to me was being happy and discovering what it was that actually made me happy. It was family, friends and being able to help others.

I'm in agreement with this 100%. All that time wasted searching for some elusive truth when the answer was right in front of me all along. Enjoy life, love hard, be happy. Simple

 

[godnotgod]

I'm in agreement with this 100%. All that time wasted searching for some elusive truth when the answer was right in front of me all along. Enjoy life, love hard, be happy. Simple

"That which you are seeking is causing you to seek"
Cheri Huber

Nothing is ever wasted. All that you went through led up to where you are now, in which you say you found the answer. So be grateful for your suffering as well as your joy.

edit: I would like to suggest to you that you have experienced a very, very wide swing in your life, from, let us call them 'relative joy', and 'relative suffering', a duality, if you will. But these are still temporal existences. The question remains as to whether it all ends upon our death as the atheists/materialists would have it, or whether we go on in some form beyond our individual deaths, how the eternalists see it. The Buddha found that these were two extreme views, and rejected both, and established what is called today The Middle Path, which is about Awakening into the Present Moment. Look it up. Here, the reality is not a duality, but Absolute Joy, to which there is no opposite, and therefore, no comparison.
*****

The Human Route

Coming empty-handed, going empty-handed — that is human.
When you are born, where do you come from?
When you die, where do you go?
Life is like a floating cloud which appears.
Death is like a floating cloud which disappears.
The floating cloud itself originally does not exist.
Life and death, coming and going, are also like that.
But there is one thing which always remains clear.
It is pure and clear, not depending on life and death.

Then what is the one pure and clear thing?

by Zen Master Seung Sahn

 

[godnotgod]

As an aside, there must be a point WHY we moved away from this inherent knowing/realization. Like, to live a 100 billion lives to come back full circle to square one seems a bit of a circuitous route. Why? If we are that, why bother with the charade of incarnating into flesh an pretending otherwise?

Well you were/are obviously hiding from your true nature. And then, for whatever reason, you began to seek some answers to the mystery of your existence, the evidence being your presence on these forums. Why were/are you hiding in the first place?

re: red text: 'If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him!"

Buddhists call the 'full circle back to square one' The Long Way Home, because you have never left home to begin with.

 

[Polymath257]

What I said: 'WAKE' [sic] to a higher level, not travel from one dream level to the next, without any awakening whatsoever, as you have been saying. How can you know what dreaming is unless you have been awake at one time, and vice versa?

In which case, I have been awake. And therefore I know that *this* is reality because I am awake.

The question had to do with no-thought, not with experience. Thought is a more round about way of getting at something, while direct seeing, without thought, is closer to it, no?

It's more immediate, but it misses so much!

To formulate thoughts about something is to create notions about it, whereas direct seeing is to look directly at or into the nature of things, ie introspection.

Which, because of sensory illusions, will be mistaken frequently.

You are not a separate observer from Reality, as your thinking, conceptual mind would have you believe; you are Reality itself, so what does this suggest to you as regards your comment about 'missing reality'?

Yes, yes, I am the universe perceiving itself.

 

[godnotgod]

How would you be able to tell that you were not dreaming that you were awake though? By default one could not know the difference due to the nature of dreaming.

And that is exactly the case when we awaken from the Second Level of Consciousness, sleep with dreams, into the Third Level of Consciousness, Waking Sleep, or Identification. We think ourselves awake on this everyday level of 'reality', but an even higher awakening illuminates the Third Level as fiction. This Fourth Level (Self-Remembering) is to the Third Level what the Third Level is to the Second, roughly speaking.

 

[godnotgod]

I understand that this could just be a foible of language, but you have just told us that there is no "Me/I/self" so how could "you are Reality itself" possibly be true. It's like you want to have your cake and eat it too. You are reality, but you are really and illusion, as only reality exists. Oy vey.

There is the illusory self, and there is The Authentic Self. The former is the ego 'I' self, and the latter That which is, pure consciousness, without an agent of consciousness. 'You' are none other than That, and by 'you', I mean your true nature, not your ego self, which is being played by your true nature, the reason for which is still a mystery to you and to many.

“We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.”
Kalu Rinpoche

 

[Araceli Cianna]

All that you went through led up to where you are now, in which you say you found the answer.

That's not what I said, that's what you interpreted Yes I have learned, evolved and progressed through life experience, as children do into adulthood, but that's not to say I believe there is a journey that takes us to a final destination. It's not a means towards an ends.

 

[YmirGF]

Well you were/are obviously hiding from your true nature. And then, for whatever reason, you began to seek some answers to the mystery of your existence, the evidence being your presence on these forums. Why were/are you hiding in the first place?

re: red text: 'If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him!"

Buddhists call the 'full circle back to square one' The Long Way Home, because you have never left home to begin with.

But if we are that why bother with the whole charade in the first place? I mean why did we even bother becoming physical beings if we are non-physical universal consciousness in the first place? Doesn't it strike you are an odd premise from the get go? Why would a universal consciousness need to spend a billion years to find out what it already was? Sounds like a glorious waste of time.... and we have to do all the work, LOL...
AND... our real job is to put ourselves out of business. Does the universal self have an identity crisis it needs to resolve or something?

 

[YmirGF]

And that is exactly the case when we awaken from the Second Level of Consciousness, sleep with dreams, into the Third Level of Consciousness, Waking Sleep, or Identification. We think ourselves awake on this everyday level of 'reality', but an even higher awakening illuminates the Third Level as fiction. This Fourth Level (Self-Remembering) is to the Third Level what the Third Level is to the Second, roughly speaking.

M'Kay.... so where are you pulling all this stuff from? Smells like that De Ropp guy to me.

 

[YmirGF]

There is the illusory self, and there is The Authentic Self. The former is the ego 'I' self, and the latter That which is, pure consciousness, without an agent of consciousness. 'You' are none other than That, and by 'you', I mean your true nature, not your ego self, which is being played by your true nature, the reason for which is still a mystery to you and to many.

“We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.”
Kalu Rinpoche

Again, why would a "higher self" need to create a "lower self" that has to go through endless ordeals in order to find out that it doesn't exist? What is the point? Since the "lower self" is an illusion, it doesn't get anything out of the exercise except its walking papers. IF you can provide a meaningful answer to this I'll give you a cookie.

 

[Vinayaka]

If you bring absolute reality down to the mundane level, you get confusion. Some schools describe it as Absolute Reality, versus relative reality. This world is totally real when viewed from an external consciousness. Where it differs is it's temporal, and Absolute Reality is permanent.

Simplistic advaita doesn't work for anger management, and a host of other factors. It's just some lofty pie in the sky philosophy that sounds good, but doesn't work.

What works is hard work.

 

[YmirGF]

If you bring absolute reality down to the mundane level, you get confusion. Some schools describe it as Absolute Reality, versus relative reality. This world is totally real when viewed from an external consciousness. Where it differs is it's temporal, and Absolute Reality is permanent.

Simplistic advaita doesn't work for anger management, and a host of other factors. It's just some lofty pie in the sky philosophy that sounds good, but doesn't work.

What works is hard work.

I guess what bothers me about the whole real vs. illusion thingy is that it renders our entire "reality" down to what is essentially a cosmic joke. "Thank you for playing, Sucker!"

 

[godnotgod]

That's not what I said, that's what you interpreted Yes I have learned, evolved and progressed through life experience, as children do into adulthood, but that's not to say I believe there is a journey that takes us to a final destination. It's not a means towards an ends.

Were it not for your previous experience you would not be where you are today, as much as you would hate to admit that. Thing is, YOU decided to go through all of what you did, though you may not realize that. Sometimes the right hand knows not what the left hand does.

 

[godnotgod]

Again, why would a "higher self" need to create a "lower self" that has to go through endless ordeals in order to find out that it doesn't exist? What is the point? Since the "lower self" is an illusion, it doesn't get anything out of the exercise except its walking papers. IF you can provide a meaningful answer to this I'll give you a cookie.

You're seeing double, as in 'duality'. There is no higher or lower self. The self is none other than The Self playing itself as the self. The Absolute is playing itself as The Universe, but we don't see it as The Absolute, because we see it through our conceptual mind, which entails Time, Space, and Causation. Remove these filters, and you will see it for what it actually is: The Absolute.

Enlightenment is simply to see things as they are, and not as the conceptual mind thinks they are.

What is the point of YOUR coming onto this Earthly plane? Who is causing you to go through endless ordeals if not yourself?

Keep your cookie. You need it more than I.