Spiritual v. Religious?

[ppp]

So it’s ok for the Israelites to be attacked and wiped out?

Are you trying to pretend that I said anything like that? This is a yes or no question.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Are you trying to pretend that I said anything like that? This is a yes or no question.

It was more a reflection.

 

[ppp]

It was more a reflection.

Another non-responsive reply. [sigh]

 

[loverofhumanity]

Another non-responsive reply. [sigh]

I already explained that God allows self defense. That is a proven fact by studying the scriptures. However we have no way of proving that the narrative is word for word authentic.

Some biblical passages were recorded by unknown authors. And how does the author validate that God told Him to do this or do that?

In Muhammad’s time there were many slanderous Hadiths fabricated to undermine His growing popularity. How do we know these stories weren't embellished or exaggerated by the author? We don’t. Yet we find devout atheists who don’t believe in God or the Bible suddenly believing in it when the Words favour their stance or give them ammunition to attack God.

Saying God doesn’t exist then accusing Him of genocide is admitting He exists. And if we admit God is God sincerely then we would not accept such things as who are we to judge God Who is All Knowing and All Wise.

Atheists are forever telling religionists not to believe everything they read yet atheists hastily believe God committed genocide just upon reading scripture they claim is man made??

What about questioning whether the story is true or not instead of blindly accepting it on face value? We can only really authentic the Quran and the Words of Baha’u’llah and They confirm some scriptures as being accurate but not every word.

It’s not fair to judge God on a few suspect passages. The theme throughout all religions has been love, unity, forgiveness, charity and so these instances appear highly suspect.

But anyway I respect your views just I see it differently.

 

[ppp]

I already explained that God allows self defense. That is a proven fact by studying the scriptures. However we have no way of proving that the narrative is word for word authentic.

This is still non responsive. I asked you a yes or no question.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is still non responsive. I asked you a yes or no question.

No of course not.

 

[Windwalker]

Although we differ here, I do think that personality worship is very wrong.

I believe that personality worship is wrong as well. I'll just check here that you understand that the personal pursuit of spirituality, is not worshipping of one's own ego, correct? I question that because you brought up personality worship in the context of spirituality. These are exact opposites, actually.

To be perfectly clear, spirituality is about transcending one's own ego. It's about negating it, not elevating it. Personality worship, actually has more to do with worshipping others, such as a charismatic leader, a preacher, a leader, or someone like a prophet for instance. This is all externalizing spirituality as belonging to another, and elevating them above all other humans as some form of superhuman.

In a sense that may be helpful, as children worship their parents at a certain stage of development as though they were gods. But ultimately, the focus has to be on personal, internal development, not taking all power and putting it in others. As Alan Watts famously said, "They kicked Jesus upstairs", meaning he's so evelvated so far beyond human reach, no human could every aspire to actually be like Jesus. Same thing with deifying prophets. That is personality worship.

So for example, let’s just imagine this scenario. Christ focuses on teaching certain spiritual attributes to people such as love, forgiveness, charity and so on which gives birth to hospitals, orphanages, schools and organisations helping the poor etc.

Yes, of course. All good works have to start from a transformed heart. If you do all the works because you're "supposed to", and its not coming from a place of actual transformed love within you, then it's not genuine spiritual fruit. Jesus taught you need to make clean the inside of the cup first, not just wash the outside and leave the inside dirty.

That's what spiritual work is all about - the inside of the cup. "Make clean the inside of the cup first, then the outside will also be clean", taught Jesus. In other words, be spiritual first. Just being religious, is only cleaning the outside of the cup.

Then, in a tribal environment, where tribes plunder, rape, kill and steal endlessly including infanticide which means they would bury their child alive in the sand if the first born were a female, Prophet Muhammad appears and does away with such cruelties, unites the barbaric tribes of the Arabian Peninsula and creates a great nation with law and order. He establishes perhaps the first world constitution, the constitution of Medina. Eventually Islam spreads much knowledge to the west which helps revive Europe.

Creating a religion, does not mean he changed people's hearts. You can force a religion on a people, you can force compliance at the edge of the sword, but that is not spirituality in the least. It's forced social order.

We can certainly discuss the role that religion plays in advancing social order, say from tribalism to ethnocentrism, such as moving from blood lines in kinship systems and tribes, to the people of the common deity, as you can see evolve in the Old Testament books regarding the Hebrew tribes, but that is ALL external in nature. It is not addressing the spiritual heart.

That is the difference between what Jesus taught, and what Moses did, or Mohammed as an organizer of a religion. While those are improvements socially over tribalism, they are not spiritually focused. Did you know that Jesus did not create a religion? His teachings was to transform and transcend religion. The "church" was never meant to be an organized institution of "law and order". It was a Roman emperor who made it that 300 years later, not Jesus.

From my understanding, Bahaullah was trying to create a new religion, like Mohammed, or Moses. Those two were much more externally focused, "here are the rules you follow, and these are the consequences if you don't (stoning, beheading, shunning, whipping, amputations, etc.). While Bahaullah may have had a vision of a better more modernized religion, without as much violence for behavioral infractions, it's still just religion, is what I can tell from what I have heard.

That said however, what I see is a positive step forward with more emerging postmodernist values, attempting to talk to a more tribalist contemporary world in the Middle East in the mid 19th century, using their language to transition from tribalism to more modern sensibilities, such as world community. In the West, we have that same thing in postmodernist views, such as in secular humanism. It's an interesting experiment socially, but I still see it as much more religion focused, the externalized forms of spirituality, and less about internal spiritual development, making clean the inside of the cup first.

As I said before, I don't need that. It's a size 8 shoe for a size 11 foot. Prophets and messengers are not something that resonates for me because that was not part of my culture growing up. I find God, or the Divine, in much more direct ways, rather than through intermediaries elevated to deity status.

So from the individual to nationhood humanity has now established some 300 nations in the world. But now with the internet, international travel and communication, the various beliefs, cultures, races and nationalities are forced to mix and mingle often conflicting as to which ethic or belief or system is best.

So like the days of the Arab tribes, humanity is at a crossroads lack of international law and order this time. In Myanmar the regime commits genocide against the Rohinga, in Syria and Yemen and elsewhere dictators ply their trade with the utmost freedom.

Of course I recognize and appreciate all of these things, but again, coming up with a system for people to follow, is not going to work if the people are all still tribalistic in the minds and hearts. If you don't transform that, the system is not going to stick. And that is the fact of what we see happening right now. We are attempting to take modern and postmodern systems and have premodern people's find a home in them. And they can't. That is why you see fundamentalism on the rise. That is why you see the MAGA crowds and their racists attitudes storming the Capitols of democracy, crying for a tribalistic Warlord to rule them with a iron fist of "law and order", which is their favorite idea of social rule by force.

It's going to take a lot more than a good idea or a vision of a prophet. It's going to take transformation from the inside to the outside. And that is what spiritual awakening does. It teaches compassion and love, not ideas of truth and power to control the masses. Religion has always become a tool for control of others through force. But Love, is always through invitation, not the sword or threats of violence.

But just before these things and the world wars, another Prophet appears. This time not to unite the tribes but the nations. And Baha’u’llah appeared with a universal ethic called the ‘oneness of mankind’, which, if applied legally can create and unite humanity into a world community and eventually a world ‘spiritual’ civilisation’.

The "oneness" of manking, and all of creation, is exactly what the spiritual revelation through spritual practices reveals! Oneness experiences are the very heart of mystical experience, and it is life-transforming.

But did you know that this universal community, is exactly nothing new? Jesus taught that. The "kingdom of God, or 'heaven' was just that vision. And he taught that 2000 years ago. The "church" was not meant to be an organized religion, but a spiritual community of humankind, worldwide! This has always been the vision of the mystic, who have direct, firsthand mystical experiences of the Divine. I've had that experience myself. Many have, not just evelaved personality figures put on pedestals and worshipped as special Messengers.

Anyone can experience this. It's our birthright, as spiritual creatures. But yes, good teachers should be respected, of course. We can learn from them. But I just don't think we need to worship them, the way a child worships their parents as gods when they are young. Eventually, we need to become our parents ourselves. And that to me, is what "spiritual but not religious" points to.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I believe that personality worship is wrong as well. I'll just check here that you understand that the personal pursuit of spirituality, is not worshipping of one's own ego, correct? I question that because you brought up personality worship in the context of spirituality. These are exact opposites, actually.

To be perfectly clear, spirituality is about transcending one's own ego. It's about negating it, not elevating it. Personality worship, actually has more to do with worshipping others, such as a charismatic leader, a preacher, a leader, or someone like a prophet for instance. This is all externalizing spirituality as belonging to another, and elevating them above all other humans as some form of superhuman.

In a sense that may be helpful, as children worship their parents at a certain stage of development as though they were gods. But ultimately, the focus has to be on personal, internal development, not taking all power and putting it in others. As Alan Watts famously said, "They kicked Jesus upstairs", meaning he's so evelvated so far beyond human reach, no human could every aspire to actually be like Jesus. Same thing with deifying prophets. That is personality worship.


Yes, of course. All good works have to start from a transformed heart. If you do all the works because you're "supposed to", and its not coming from a place of actual transformed love within you, then it's not genuine spiritual fruit. Jesus taught you need to make clean the inside of the cup first, not just wash the outside and leave the inside dirty.

That's what spiritual work is all about - the inside of the cup. "Make clean the inside of the cup first, then the outside will also be clean", taught Jesus. In other words, be spiritual first. Just being religious, is only cleaning the outside of the cup.


Creating a religion, does not mean he changed people's hearts. You can force a religion on a people, you can force compliance at the edge of the sword, but that is not spirituality in the least. It's forced social order.

We can certainly discuss the role that religion plays in advancing social order, say from tribalism to ethnocentrism, such as moving from blood lines in kinship systems and tribes, to the people of the common deity, as you can see evolve in the Old Testament books regarding the Hebrew tribes, but that is ALL external in nature. It is not addressing the spiritual heart.

That is the difference between what Jesus taught, and what Moses did, or Mohammed as an organizer of a religion. While those are improvements socially over tribalism, they are not spiritually focused. Did you know that Jesus did not create a religion? His teachings was to transform and transcend religion. The "church" was never meant to be an organized institution of "law and order". It was a Roman emperor who made it that 300 years later, not Jesus.

From my understanding, Bahaullah was trying to create a new religion, like Mohammed, or Moses. Those two were much more externally focused, "here are the rules you follow, and these are the consequences if you don't (stoning, beheading, shunning, whipping, amputations, etc.). While Bahaullah may have had a vision of a better more modernized religion, without as much violence for behavioral infractions, it's still just religion, is what I can tell from what I have heard.

That said however, what I see is a positive step forward with more emerging postmodernist values, attempting to talk to a more tribalist contemporary world in the Middle East in the mid 19th century, using their language to transition from tribalism to more modern sensibilities, such as world community. In the West, we have that same thing in postmodernist views, such as in secular humanism. It's an interesting experiment socially, but I still see it as much more religion focused, the externalized forms of spirituality, and less about internal spiritual development, making clean the inside of the cup first.

As I said before, I don't need that. It's a size 8 shoe for a size 11 foot. Prophets and messengers are not something that resonates for me because that was not part of my culture growing up. I find God, or the Divine, in much more direct ways, rather than through intermediaries elevated to deity status.


Of course I recognize and appreciate all of these things, but again, coming up with a system for people to follow, is not going to work if the people are all still tribalistic in the minds and hearts. If you don't transform that, the system is not going to stick. And that is the fact of what we see happening right now. We are attempting to take modern and postmodern systems and have premodern people's find a home in them. And they can't. That is why you see fundamentalism on the rise. That is why you see the MAGA crowds and their racists attitudes storming the Capitols of democracy, crying for a tribalistic Warlord to rule them with a iron fist of "law and order", which is their favorite idea of social rule by force.

It's going to take a lot more than a good idea or a vision of a prophet. It's going to take transformation from the inside to the outside. And that is what spiritual awakening does. It teaches compassion and love, not ideas of truth and power to control the masses. Religion has always become a tool for control of others through force. But Love, is always through invitation, not the sword or threats of violence.


The "oneness" of manking, and all of creation, is exactly what the spiritual revelation through spritual practices reveals! Oneness experiences are the very heart of mystical experience, and it is life-transforming.

But did you know that this universal community, is exactly nothing new? Jesus taught that. The "kingdom of God, or 'heaven' was just that vision. And he taught that 2000 years ago. The "church" was not meant to be an organized religion, but a spiritual community of humankind, worldwide! This has always been the vision of the mystic, who have direct, firsthand mystical experiences of the Divine. I've had that experience myself. Many have, not just evelaved personality figures put on pedestals and worshipped as special Messengers.

Anyone can experience this. It's our birthright, as spiritual creatures. But yes, good teachers should be respected, of course. We can learn from them. But I just don't think we need to worship them, the way a child worships their parents as gods when they are young. Eventually, we need to become our parents ourselves. And that to me, is what "spiritual but not religious" points to.

Windwalker you speak so much wisdom and I really think you have great insights. By personality worship I meant people worshipping the Messenger instead of trying to be spiritual. Yes I agree that Christ came to rejuvenate people spiritually but didn’t reveal any system. Until we do become more spiritual we can’t really improve things much because we can’t just exist happily on ‘things’ devoid of meaning.

Baha’u’llah’s Mission was to lay the foundation for a world spiritual civilisation. To Christians it is called the Kingdom of God. He claimed to be the Promised One awaited by the religions. To usher in an era called the Most Great Peace. It is based upon humanitarian principles and spiritual virtues and not force.

Edward Granville Browne was the only European to meet Him.

Professor Browne meets Bahá’u’lláh - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

 

[ppp]

So it’s ok for the Israelites to be wiped out?

Are you trying to pretend that I said anything like that?

No of course not.

Thank you.

So, here is what I think. I think that you did not know how to respond to my post, so you shifted ground and tried to imply that I said something that you found more manageable. More easily rebutted.

It is an unfortunate reality that people mishear, misread and misunderstand. I think that those inevitable points of failure in communication cause more than sufficient disorder, confusion and irritation, without also introducing deception. Don't you?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thank you.

So, here is what I think. I think that you did not know how to respond to my post, so you shifted ground and tried to imply that I said something that you found more manageable. More easily rebutted.

It is an unfortunate reality that people mishear, misread and misunderstand. I think that those inevitable points of failure in communication cause more than sufficient disorder, confusion and irritation, without also introducing deception. Don't you?

Some posts on this forum can be difficult to understand.

 

[ppp]

Some posts on this forum can be difficult to understand.

Some are. But I think that it would be fair to say that you are committed to the Baha'i worldview. No? I mean, in Baha'i there is a huge stigma against diverging from doctrine. In other words, indulging in schism is strictly verboten.

Whereas I am free to change my position when the hell ever new information is made available to me.

Hell, I could agree with Baha'i if any of you ever gave adequate evidence for your assorted claims.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Some are. But I think that it would be fair to say that you are committed to the Baha'i worldview. No? I mean, in Baha'i there is a huge stigma against diverging from doctrine. In other words, indulging in schism is strictly verboten.

Whereas I am free to change my position when the hell ever new information is made available to me.

Hell, I could agree with Baha'i if any of you ever gave adequate evidence for your assorted claims.

I really appreciate your patience. I just completed would you believe a Diploma of Counselling and Communication Skills? Lol. Now I just began my Bachelor of Counselling yesterday. I’m doing 3 units. Relationship Counselling, Working with Addicted Populations and Mediation and Conflict Management.

With regards to Baha’i I joined because I really liked what they teach. I really believe in it so there’s no question of ‘towing the party line’. We love to serve and there’s no question of fear at all. I came into Baha’i ridden with guilt and shame from my Catholic background and now it’s all gone and it’s such a liberating feeling not to be scared anymore or ashamed to be a sinner and so on. Those things injured me mentally but now I’m recovered.

Yeah we do have quite smorgasbord to select from, can seem confusing at first. Let me suggest crackers and dip. Lol

 

[Windwalker]

Windwalker you speak so much wisdom and I really think you have great insights. By personality worship I meant people worshipping the Messenger instead of trying to be spiritual.

But isn't saying that unless you have the Messenger you can't be spiritual, making spirituality itself contingent upon essentially worshipping that person? I do not see spirituality as owned by any one religion, or teacher, or prophet, etc.

I like what the Buddhist sage Lin Chi said in the ninth century. "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him". Meaning those who think they have found the answer in a religion (or person, or prophet), they need to question that belief. It's the whole problem of externalizing spirituality and imagining some institution or person owns the Divine. You're not looking in the right place.

Yes I agree that Christ came to rejuvenate people spiritually but didn’t reveal any system.

So then wouldn't it be fair to say that "Spiritual but not religious", is consistent with what Jesus was teaching? If he thought a new world religious institution was what was needed, then why didn't he teach that? I think to come along later and say that that was missing in his teaching, and we need that now today, is to completely miss the point of what he was teaching.

In my view, SBNRs are more true to the heart of what Jesus was teaching. "Be spiritual, and don't focus so hard on being right religiously", essentially. "If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him", in other words. That's not to say you can't be religious of course. But that's only a tool, not your salvation.

Until we do become more spiritual we can’t really improve things much because we can’t just exist happily on ‘things’ devoid of meaning.

This is my point. Without spirituality, no really great ideas of a social order, or a religious order or belief system, is not going to be a living thing. It's just a form, a husk. And people will be unchanged and just make that system a reflection of their own unchanged selves. Being SBNR, allows the focus on the inside of the cup, as opposed to conforming to the decorations on the outside of the cup.

Baha’u’llah’s Mission was to lay the foundation for a world spiritual civilisation. To Christians it is called the Kingdom of God.

But as I said then, his message was nothing new. Jesus already taught that 1820 years before he offered his teachings. If it is the same thing, then Christianity already has that message. And my point before, even if they have it, doing it is not an automatic.

Unless the focus is on making clean the inside of the cup, people will just drag their unchanged selves into the system and make it a reflection of themselves, seeking power over others and controlling them through force, in whatever form that takes from killings to shunnings, to disfellowshipping. All of that is force. All of that is violence.

SBNRs, are clearly focused on the inside of the cup. It's right in the name itself, "spiritual but not religious". Religion is the outside of the cup. Spirituality is the inside of the cup.

He claimed to be the Promised One awaited by the religions.

Personally, while I'll not make any judgements, I do find that a little suspect when one claims such a thing. It's quite common for the most spiritual people to not consider themselves above or beyond all others. I heard the Dalí Lama being asked if he was Enlightened, and he just chuckled, "Oh goodness, no". Yet he is a man of incredible spiritual depth and grace. Humility is part and parcel with true spirituality. We recognize our flaws and our humanness. It's what leads us to have compassion and grace to others, because we know we are so flawed in the light of that Light that is the Divine.

I understand how the followers of Jesus held him in great esteem and their writings and stories of him proclaim him to divine status, the Logos of God, the Light of Creation itself. And those are wonderful, awe-inspiring imagines of how they saw him. Did Jesus actually claim those things himself in person? We really don't know, as there is nothing that Jesus himself wrote. But I kinda doubt it. Self-promotion wouldn't really seem necessary. If you've got the goods, they speak for themselves. That his followers saw him as the Light of Creation, speaks to the impact he had upon them, what they saw in him.

To usher in an era called the Most Great Peace. It is based upon humanitarian principles and spiritual virtues and not force.

What is in place in your religion to keep people in line? Do you excommunicate them? I'm really don't know much about that, but I suspect there are consequences for non-conformity, aren't there?

Edward Granville Browne was the only European to meet Him.

Professor Browne meets Bahá’u’lláh - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

That was an interesting blurb on him in that link. It says he basically fell at his feet and worshipped him. "No need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain."

Yet, in researching who this person was, I found this in the Wiki article on him: Edward Granville Browne - Wikipedia

About the Baháʼí teachings he says:

These teachings are in themselves admirable, though inferior, in my opinion, both in beauty and simplicity to the teachings of Christ.

— Materials for the Study of the Babi Religion, Introduction, p. xxi.
​

That seems a little less falling at his feet than what the Baha'i article suggests.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Regarding a system, Christ taught His followers to pray for the kingdom of God and that He would return in the Glory of the Father with that Kingdom. We believe that the new name that Jesus said He would return as is Baha’u’llah which means Glory of God and Baha’u’llah Whom we believe is Christ returned in the station of the Father, brought the Kingdom of God, called the World Order of Baha’u’llah.

Individual spiritual teachings have not succeeded in transforming the world because there are 3 protagonists that need to be spiritualised for that to happen. The individual, the community and the institutions. If we only spiritualise the individual, the corruption in the other spheres soon corrupts the individual again.

So we require a system based on justice that is spiritual not just individuals. This is how it might happen.

The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective.

Soon, will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead.”

“After a time, all the governments on earth will change. Oppression will envelop the world. And following a universal convulsion, the sun of justice will rise from the horizon of the unseen realm.”

“All nations and kindreds,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá likewise has written, “…will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.”

 

[loverofhumanity]

But isn't saying that unless you have the Messenger you can't be spiritual, making spirituality itself contingent upon essentially worshipping that person? I do not see spirituality as owned by any one religion, or teacher, or prophet, etc.

I like what the Buddhist sage Lin Chi said in the ninth century. "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him". Meaning those who think they have found the answer in a religion (or person, or prophet), they need to question that belief. It's the whole problem of externalizing spirituality and imagining some institution or person owns the Divine. You're not looking in the right place.


So then wouldn't it be fair to say that "Spiritual but not religious", is consistent with what Jesus was teaching? If he thought a new world religious institution was what was needed, then why didn't he teach that? I think to come along later and say that that was missing in his teaching, and we need that now today, is to completely miss the point of what he was teaching.

In my view, SBNRs are more true to the heart of what Jesus was teaching. "Be spiritual, and don't focus so hard on being right religiously", essentially. "If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him", in other words. That's not to say you can't be religious of course. But that's only a tool, not your salvation.


This is my point. Without spirituality, no really great ideas of a social order, or a religious order or belief system, is not going to be a living thing. It's just a form, a husk. And people will be unchanged and just make that system a reflection of their own unchanged selves. Being SBNR, allows the focus on the inside of the cup, as opposed to conforming to the decorations on the outside of the cup.


But as I said then, his message was nothing new. Jesus already taught that 1820 years before he offered his teachings. If it is the same thing, then Christianity already has that message. And my point before, even if they have it, doing it is not an automatic.

Unless the focus is on making clean the inside of the cup, people will just drag their unchanged selves into the system and make it a reflection of themselves, seeking power over others and controlling them through force, in whatever form that takes from killings to shunnings, to disfellowshipping. All of that is force. All of that is violence.

SBNRs, are clearly focused on the inside of the cup. It's right in the name itself, "spiritual but not religious". Religion is the outside of the cup. Spirituality is the inside of the cup.


Personally, while I'll not make any judgements, I do find that a little suspect when one claims such a thing. It's quite common for the most spiritual people to not consider themselves above or beyond all others. I heard the Dalí Lama being asked if he was Enlightened, and he just chuckled, "Oh goodness, no". Yet he is a man of incredible spiritual depth and grace. Humility is part and parcel with true spirituality. We recognize our flaws and our humanness. It's what leads us to have compassion and grace to others, because we know we are so flawed in the light of that Light that is the Divine.

I understand how the followers of Jesus held him in great esteem and their writings and stories of him proclaim him to divine status, the Logos of God, the Light of Creation itself. And those are wonderful, awe-inspiring imagines of how they saw him. Did Jesus actually claim those things himself in person? We really don't know, as there is nothing that Jesus himself wrote. But I kinda doubt it. Self-promotion wouldn't really seem necessary. If you've got the goods, they speak for themselves. That his followers saw him as the Light of Creation, speaks to the impact he had upon them, what they saw in him.


What is in place in your religion to keep people in line? Do you excommunicate them? I'm really don't know much about that, but I suspect there are consequences for non-conformity, aren't there?


That was an interesting blurb on him in that link. It says he basically fell at his feet and worshipped him. "No need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain."

Yet, in researching who this person was, I found this in the Wiki article on him: Edward Granville Browne - Wikipedia

About the Baháʼí teachings he says:

These teachings are in themselves admirable, though inferior, in my opinion, both in beauty and simplicity to the teachings of Christ.

— Materials for the Study of the Babi Religion, Introduction, p. xxi.
​

That seems a little less falling at his feet than what the Baha'i article suggests.

Windwalker I just want to add that I think you have much wisdom and I’m learning some of it from you. I make many mistakes and always want you to know that despite the fervency of my beliefs I respect you.

If sometimes I come across as offensive please let me know because winning a debate is not as important to me as having a friend.

Now you mentioned things like keeping people in line and conformity which I forgot to address. Please know that Baha’is love their religion deeply and consider it an honor to serve it and humanity. There is no such thing as coercion, force or fear in our religion. That doesn’t mean we are perfect, far from it. But do everything mostly out of love. So we love to obey the House of Justice. We don’t even consider it ‘obeying’. It’s the exact opposite of today where people protest against leaders and governments. We consider it a privilege to follow their counsel.

But truly no community can function without justice. In very rare cases where individuals have tried to create another Baha’i sect, they are offered every chance to change, resign etc but if they continue to turn Baha’i against Baha’i then they are usually dismissed or their membership revoked. This is rare and you will not find regular occurrences. If Baha’is don’t like the teachings or don’t agree with them anymore they are free to leave and return as they please. Baha’i membership is strictly voluntary. There is no penalty for resigning.

I’ve been a Baha’i for 45 years. Never threatened, warned, cautioned or spied on. Just let alone to freely practice my religion. No one asks me for money or pushes me to go to meetings. I have my complete freedom and independence. I do everything of my own free will. I am not told to do anything.