Spiritual v. Religious?

[loverofhumanity]

Are we to expect something different from a religion that claims to teach virtue and upright character?

That is the reason why religion is renewed from age to age because nothing in this world is permanent including religion. When religion only has an outer shell but inwardly becomes decayed, it needs to be renewed.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This doesn't really have anything to do with saying that people who don't accept the Bahia's prophet as the Messanger for the current age, cannot be spiritual, as you said. Are you not planning to defend that anymore, since I've shown how that's not valid to say that?


A changed heart and mind will however, and meditation and prayer are tools for just that.


How long ago was that? The world is evolving at an enormous pace, and social programs 150 years out of date, may not be adequate. As far as spiritual pathways, those tend to be timeless, and there have been and are plenty of guides for that already, from thousands of years ago, to days ago. I personally find the idea of only one voice every 1000 years, to be a rather limited perspective. I think new voices can be found every day, coming from those who have developed spiritually enough.


We try to do that today in our progressive and liberal institutions. But conservatives prefer tyrants and power over minorities as the godly way, it seems.


It also takes voting to stem the tide backwards towards enslavement.

Anyway, my original point was that someone does not need to accept the Baha'i prophet in the way the Bahai'is do to be spiritual, as you said, anymore than you need to accept Jesus is the 2nd person in the Trinity to be spiritual. Those are religious beliefs, and spirituality is not dependent on those. Spirituality is innate to all humans, and does not come from prophets outside of ourselves, or teachers, or anyone else. They may help point the way to find that in ourselves, but they aren't necessary for spirituality. SBNR is proof of that.

No one has to accept anything they don’t believe in. That’s the right of every human being to walk the path of their choosing.

But concepts like the consciousness of the oneness of mankind, world peace and the establishment of a world civilisation the last time I checked these were not yet accomplished let alone out of date.

 

[ppp]

That is the reason why religion is renewed from age to age because nothing in this world is permanent including religion. When religion only has an outer shell but inwardly becomes decayed, it needs to be renewed.

Any religion that requires obedience and depends on a feudalistic model is decayed from the start. Aside from Wicca and similar paths, I am unaware of any religion that does not fit said degenerate format.

 

[lukethethird]

That is the reason why religion is renewed from age to age because nothing in this world is permanent including religion. When religion only has an outer shell but inwardly becomes decayed, it needs to be renewed.

Why renew it? Why not be done with it? What do preachers know about virtue?

 

[rational experiences]

If a human says we are brothers sisters family of humans you mean it. Or imply you meant it.

Human first. Equal human first.

Father mother were brother sister.

In a mind irradiated who posed theories used machines to minus only by theories as baby man you now misquote human advice.

Status first words used in talking to be self. Aware in nature how to live survive. What you needed to apply to achieve. Survival.

First.

No thesis. No egotism allowed and no imposed status allowed.

Truth.

We tell truth or we lie claiming truth.

Brother sister first. Parents human not as father mother did not come out of human sperm or human ovary. First.

Our memory.

Father mother as brother sister.

Two equal humans owning two status.

Why you speak lies today as a status to word claim by name as a theist baby man then men agreed.

Pretty basic spiritual versus I speak about science but rationally never should have advice. Human advice.

As you were only just sperm and ovary in conscious as self equating. Saying human first.

You don't speak on their behalf.

A human spiritual teaching.

They taught our lives. Babies.

So if my parents told me by recorded human image and voice you can't argue. As vision was how a lying man thinker invented terms of science himself...not our father and not our mother.

By term visionary advice.

First man human science theist was a visionary.

And as a spiritual human seeing life destroyed before my own eyes. Criminal unnatural human behaviours are compared to our parents life..
you astound me by your non compliance to be taught only.

Not science.

Spirit self is the only advice.

 

[Truthseeker]

Spirituality has existed in the world, many ages long before any teachers or prophets came along. It's part of the nature of reality itself, of which all human beings are connected. It is within all of us by virtue of existence itself. The teachers, saints, sages, or prophets, emerged from that as much as anyone else. They are not the source of it in the world.

According to Baha'i, Prophets have always existed, they have no beginning in time. I do agree, that within all of us, there is spirituality, within all of existence there is spirituality to a lesser degree. But spirituality is best seen in Prophets and their Writings that point us there, that is the direct source.

And the reason some leave religion, is not solely because of its abuses, but because of its failure to perform that role which it was created for by humans to perform. It fails to translate spiritual reality anymore for a modern world. When it gets stuck in its own religious dogmas and trappings of prophets and holy books, it becomes about justifying itself, and no longer provides a service for humanity for its spiritual needs and growth.

I like to consider religion to be about fingers pointing to the moon. But when we confuse the fingers pointing as the moon itself, then it's no longer functioning properly.

There are no man-made dogmas in the Baha'i Faith, but you would have to investigate the Baha'i Faith to come to that conclusion, if you ever do. It's obvious to you that there have never been actual Prophets that provide divine knowledge. I don't wish to justify anything to you, you would have to investigate it yourself ultimately.

 

[Truthseeker]

Not believe that the person who taught that was a prophet of God chosen for the current age however, is not a requirement of being spiritual at all.

Not a requirement, and someone who believed in that Prophet may not be spiritual at all. However, if you believed in that Prophet and you rationally interpreted what He says for yourself, and strive to follow what He says as you understand it that is the best road to spirituality..

 

[loverofhumanity]

Any religion that requires obedience and depends on a feudalistic model is decayed from the start. Aside from Wicca and similar paths, I am unaware of any religion that does not fit said degenerate format.

Everything in this world is temporary including religion. We humans too after a while become old and die.

 

[ppp]

Everything in this world is temporary including religion. We humans too after a while become old and die.

While both of those statements are true, neither reflects a understanding or awareness of the contents of the post to which you are responding.

 

[Windwalker]

No one has to accept anything they don’t believe in. That’s the right of every human being to walk the path of their choosing.

But, you claim that if they do not accept Bahaullah, they cannot be spiritual:

I don’t think one can be spiritual without accepting the Manifestations.

Do you still stand by that? And if so, how can you justify that? Are you saying I and countless others, saints and sages alike are not spiritual because they don't embrace a particular religion's prophets in the manner they do?

But concepts like the consciousness of the oneness of mankind, world peace and the establishment of a world civilisation the last time I checked these were not yet accomplished let alone out of date.

Neither has your prophet's vision. Yet, these things are attainable on an individual level. And from the individual, it spreads to others, from hopefully at some point, the whole loaf rises. That's how these things work.

If you strip away spirituality, all you have is religion, and that's just another form of government. Governments aren't in the business of changing people's hearts.

 

[Windwalker]

According to Baha'i, Prophets have always existed, they have no beginning in time.

According to anthropology, they do have a beginning in time. Not all cultures have prophets. Shamans existed before the prophets, which only come on the scene in post-tribal, ethnic societies. Unless you mean to redefine prophets to mean shamans? But that wouldn't really fit our understanding of what prophets are and how they are different from shamans. Prophets are a very particular thing that you don't see historically until a certain age.

Are you meaning to say they existed in the ethereal realms, before the creation of the earth, like some sort of heavenly beings? That of course would be a purely religious belief in that case.

I do agree, that within all of us, there is spirituality, within all of existence there is spirituality to a lesser degree. But spirituality is best seen in Prophets and their Writings that point us there, that is the direct source.

In which case, it is not necessary to accept the prophets in order to be spiritual? One does not need to believe in Bahaullah, or Mohamad, etc, in order to be spiritual? One can be "spiritual but not religious" is a true statement for you? Do you agree with all of these statements?

There are no man-made dogmas in the Baha'i Faith, but you would have to investigate the Baha'i Faith to come to that conclusion, if you ever do. It's obvious to you that there have never been actual Prophets that provide divine knowledge. I don't wish to justify anything to you, you would have to investigate it yourself ultimately.

If you are saying that you can't be spiritual unless you accept Bahaullah, that certainly is a religious dogma. You may claim its source is Divine, but folks like me do not accept that. Does that mean I am not spiritual according to the teachings you believe in? Is this something you believe with your heart as well?

 

[Windwalker]

Not a requirement, and someone who believed in that Prophet may not be spiritual at all. However, if you believed in that Prophet and you rationally interpreted what He says for yourself, and strive to follow what He says as you understand it that is the best road to spirituality..

I also might not consider it the best road for me, or all others. I for one do not believe there is a one-size fits all approach to spirituality. I believe each person is unique.

However, that said, there are certain basic principles one has to follow, such as honesty, truth, goodness, beauty, etc.. But following a particular prescribed religious dogma is not necessarily the best for everyone. In fact, being "spiritual but not religious" can result in far greater growth spiritually for many, because the religious dogma may be more of a hindrance than a help.

I certainly fit that category. Are you saying I would do better spiritually if I joined your religion? Are you sure that would be the case? I'm quite certain from what I understand and the discussions I've had, I would have to struggle a great deal with some of the things I've heard, such as humans have always existed, and the humans did not evolve from earlier species. That sort of thing, as one example.

Why do you think new religions come along, if the old ones were working so well?

 

[loverofhumanity]

While both of those statements are true, neither reflects a understanding or awareness of the contents of the post to which you are responding.

But, you claim that if they do not accept Bahaullah, they cannot be spiritual:

​

Do you still stand by that? And if so, how can you justify that? Are you saying I and countless others, saints and sages alike are not spiritual because they don't embrace a particular religion's prophets in the manner they do?


Neither has your prophet's vision. Yet, these things are attainable on an individual level. And from the individual, it spreads to others, from hopefully at some point, the whole loaf rises. That's how these things work.

If you strip away spirituality, all you have is religion, and that's just another form of government. Governments aren't in the business of changing people's hearts.

My understanding is that to turn away from God and His Manifestations is a grievous error and nullifies all sincerity and spirituality. Now that I know Who Baha’u’llah is I know that, but not knowing Him, I would have the same attitude you have so that’s perfectly understandable. I’m only relating to you that now I know Baha’u’llah, I believe people are committing spiritual suicide by continually ignoring Him and His claims but there’s nothing I can do about that except be as honest as possible and appeal to people that it’s in their best spiritual interests to open their hearts and minds to Baha’u’llah. They have everything to gain and absolutely nothing to lose.

From what I know, no Prophet would have appeared if it wasn’t to prepare the world for Baha’u’llah Who we believe is the Promised One foretold by the Prophets and Messengers of the past, and a Manifestation like Him only appears once every 500,000 years.

The creative power released by the Words of Baha’u’llah are able to renew and rejuvenate humanity and since His Words were revealed what we are witnessing worldwide is the death of the old world and its ways and the birth of the new which is eventually to lead to a world spiritual civilisation on earth. This is a direct consequence of the power of the Creative Word of God.

Once Baha’u’llah uttered these Words: “The earth is but one country and mankind it’s citizens”, the sciences began to obey and things like international communication and travel were born and the internet.

The Creative power of Baha’u’llah’s Words is such that He says “Be” and “it is”. There are many of His Writings which are fashioning and inspiring the world towards collaboration and unity as this is what He has ordained so men will be attracted to establish the things this Revelation has ordained.

 

[ppp]

@loverofhumanity Until you decide to reply to what I said, don't include me in your so-called responses. Thanks!

 

[loverofhumanity]

@loverofhumanity Until you decide to reply to what I said, don't include me in your so-called responses. Thanks!

Sincere apologies. I’ve been busy and had to visit the doctor. Which response are you referring to and I will address them as best I can.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Any religion that requires obedience and depends on a feudalistic model is decayed from the start. Aside from Wicca and similar paths, I am unaware of any religion that does not fit said degenerate format.

Today the religions have had their time and are no longer fit for this age because this age requires unity and all the past religions are divided into thousands of sects so if they cannot unite themselves then how can they unite humanity?

This is why Baha’u’llah has appeared and through His teachings established a world community of a cross section of humanity that speaks with one voice.

I have no idea regarding feudalistic religions as religion teaches unity and brotherhood. The followers may be feudalistic but that has nothing to do with religion which teaches peace and love.

 

[ppp]

Today the religions have had their time and are no longer fit for this age because this age requires unity and all the past religions are divided into thousands of sects so if they cannot unite themselves then how can they unite humanity?

You said that before. I see no way that any religion could ever unite humanity.

This is why Baha’u’llah has appeared and through His teachings established a world community of a cross section of humanity that speaks with one voice.

Baha'i cannot unite humanity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You said that before. I see no way that any religion could ever unite humanity.


Baha'i cannot unite humanity.

Thats your opinion fair enough but where’s your evidence that Baha’is can’t unite humanity?

The reality is that we are the only ‘world community’ in existence which speaks with one voice and the second most widespread in the world.

You claim that no religion could ever unite humanity but in past ages world unity was not possible because we did not have the sciences to physically bring us together which we possess today.

Now the world has shrunk to a neighbourhood, unity is inevitable. If Baha’is have succeeded in establishing a global community, then our very existence is proof that religion can unite humanity.

A Global Community | The Bahá’í Faith

 

[ppp]

Thats your opinion fair enough but where’s your evidence that Baha’is can’t unite humanity?

• Human history. Bahai is not the first nor the five hundred and first group of people bent upon world domination for The Greater Good (The Greater Good). Yes, yes, I know that you see yourselves as a benevolent force (again, not the first) that will sweep the world's population by popular acclaim. But seriously, have you met homo sapiens?
• I am part of humanity
  • I find some (not all) of your moral codes to be immoral and antithetical to human well-being.
  • I do not believe that any gods exist so I reject the source of both the source and validity of Baha'i authority.
  • I completely reject the concept of top-down moral authority (whether a god exists or not)
  • I am not unique.
• Every member of Baha'i is human and convinced of the God-given moral superiority of their cause. Add a little power to that combination for any group of humans, and it is a short greased slide into pogroms, purges, and purity tests.

The reality is that we are the only ‘world community’ in existence which speaks with one voice and the second most widespread in the world.

I am sure that you think that speaking with one voice is a positive. But all it means is that your organization suppresses diversity.

Now the world has shrunk to a neighbourhood, unity is inevitable.

Never gonna happen. Seriously, have you met homo sapiens?

If Baha’is have succeeded in establishing a global community, then our very existence is proof that religion can unite humanity.

Twaddle. The only thing that would be proof that Baha'i can unite humanity, would be a humanity united under Baha'i.

 

[ppp]

A Global Community | The Bahá’í Faith

BTW, Coca Cola has a larger global community.