Spontaneous Abortions: Murder?

[Ulver]

You don't agree with what? Did you mean you don't believe in the fall?

Yes, I do believe she said that. If you're not Jewish or Christian then it's kind of given that you don't. And then, even some christians don't.

 

[Quiddity]

Yes, I do believe she said that. If you're not Jewish or Christian then it's kind of given that you don't. And then, even some christians don't.

Many Luciferians, Satanists, Muslims, and others believe in it. So no, it's not a given. Better to ask then assume I always say.

 

[Ulver]

Many Luciferians, Satanists, Muslims, and others believe in it. So no, it's not a given. Better to ask then assume I always say.

As far as I know Muslims don't believe in the fall as a sin. They believe it was God's plan and not an act of Man's free-will. Therefore it was not a sin.

As for Satanists, yes, they essentially put their own spin on judeo-christian writings/beliefs unless they're the LaVey type.

 

[adilrockstar]

I was reading a book recently that touched on this subject.

God forbids murder in the Ten Commandments. Would abortion not be murder?

Personally I think it is, but that is just my opinion. What about spontaneous abortions? These are not planned by any human, but by God. Is he not murdering those little babies, as it is the same thing?

And why does it happen? What is God doing? Why is he doing it? Or is it not part of his plan?

I guess you would think that every person that has ever died of a natural cause, died because God murdered them. God does not "murder" anyone.

God Gives Life and God Can Take It Away!

Praise be to the God who gives and takes away.:bow:


We cannot possibly try to unerstand all of God's reasons. He looks over the whole earth at one time and we are limited to what our own eyes can see.

God Bless

Adil

 

[Buttons*]

I guess you would think that every person that has ever died of a natural cause, died because God murdered them. God does not "murder" anyone.

God Gives Life and God Can Take It Away!

Praise be to the God who gives and takes away.:bow:


We cannot possibly try to unerstand all of God's reasons. He looks over the whole earth at one time and we are limited to what our own eyes can see.

God Bless

Adil

so if God strikes me with lightening, should a doctor save my life? God obviously wanted me to die, but i know in this scenario, doctors would be rushed to my aid. SO if God is the ultimate taker and giver of life, there shouldn't be doctors, should there?

 

[adilrockstar]

so if God strikes me with lightening, should a doctor save my life? God obviously wanted me to die, but i know in this scenario, doctors would be rushed to my aid. SO if God is the ultimate taker and giver of life, there shouldn't be doctors, should there?

If God wants you to die it doensn't matter if the best doctors in the world come to your aid.

If He wants to allow you to live, you will live, no matter how you come about it.

God gave us natural remedies to illness, he gave us intelligence to learn how to treat our injuries and disease.

God comes into play in an illness if their is nothing that "we" can do to save ourselves. If it is in His heart to intervene then He will do so.

 

[Buttons*]

If God wants you to die it doensn't matter if the best doctors in the world come to your aid.

If He wants to allow you to live, you will live, no matter how you come about it.

God gave us natural remedies to illness, he gave us intelligence to learn how to treat our injuries and disease.

God comes into play in an illness if their is nothing that "we" can do to save ourselves. If it is in His heart to intervene then He will do so.

which is why we are just now learning cures to diseases through scientific research... good job

 

[adilrockstar]

which is why we are just now learning cures to diseases through scientific research... good job

Thanks for the insult. It is possible to have a discussion without resorting to sarcasm.


The new accomplishments in science and medicine have come at the appropriate time, God's Time.

God Bless

Adil

 

[yippityyak]

If God wants you to die it doensn't matter if the best doctors in the world come to your aid.

If He wants to allow you to live, you will live, no matter how you come about it.

God gave us natural remedies to illness, he gave us intelligence to learn how to treat our injuries and disease.

God comes into play in an illness if their is nothing that "we" can do to save ourselves. If it is in His heart to intervene then He will do so.

Ok, so we are looking at sin that causes these things to happen, like spontaneous abortions. And the fact that God has given us free will to have sex, and then chooses who gets the gift of a child. Then he will decide half way through whether or not that child is fit to live or die. He created this being, supposedly a perfect being in his image, and he created the law that death of another human being is not allowed, so if he decides to kill this baby, thats ok. He has done no wrong. It is also according to his divine plan for that mothers life, and for what lessons the mother can learn by allowing the child to survive or not, thereby making way for his divine plan to unravel further for the mother. Then, if he decides that the child is not to survive, no doctor will be able to save that child.

Lets take a step back now and look at this.

When there are genetic diseases within the DNA of the mother and father of that child, is it safe to assume that it is not that which caused the child to die, but God. Or that the parents sin somehow caused that genetic disease to occur in their DNA? Or maybe even sins of their forefathers? We all agree (i think) that God gives us free will to have sex when we choose. And that God decides whether or not we are given the gift of a child. And then if he decides to kill this baby (and yes I say kill, because that is what it is, he is taking the childs life away!), then he is exempt from punishment? How can that work, regardless of whether he created that law or not? He has taken the life of a child, who, according to his followers, has a soul at conception? And how can this all be for the mothers benefit if the child dies? I mean, all things happen for a reason, right? And when these things happen, we are supposed to look for the lesson that God is trying to teach us, right? What can the mother learn from a miscarriage or spontaneous abortion? And if there is something to learn, what is there for her to learn if she can not understand why it happened? Because I can tell you know, as Maize touched on the subject, all that mother is going to learn is to put the blame on herself and live with that guilt for the rest of her life. She may choose to feel that way, by God granting her free will, but what other options does she have but to feel guilty! And then there is another aspect of this that I dont understand. If God has a plan for your life, and he brings you to a crossroads for you to make a decision, does that mean he has two plans for your life? One for if you choose plan A and one if you choose plan B? That doesnt fit with the explanation of God having a divine plan for your life. If he gives you free will, he is going to have to have a hell of a lot of life plans for each person. Or it means he has no plan at all.

Just my thoughts.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

What about spontaneous abortions? These are not planned by any human, but by God. Is he not murdering those little babies, as it is the same thing?

As far as muslims are concerned an offspring does not aquire a soul at conception. A soul is acquired at around four months. Doctors even refer to this as "quickening". We know that the word quick not only means to move fast, but it also means to have life. It is at this time when the fetus begins to move voluntarily. MOthers notice that at this time or very soon after, she can feel the baby moving, kicking, etc. Miscarriage happens very early in the first trimester of pregnancy. At this time, according to Islam the baby is not a person yet. Murder does not apply here.

And why does it happen? What is God doing? Why is he doing it? Or is it not part of his plan?

Personally I thnk it could happen for a lot of reasons. It could be a mercy for the child and/or parents. Usually a miscarriage happens because the cells are not developing as they should. Something is wrong most times, and the body simply gets rid of it. I don't know maybe the child will be severely damaged at birth. Perhaps Allah is sparing the child such life. Maybe Allah is sparing the parents of a burden that they actually wouldn't be able to deal with. On a larger scale, Allah knows what they babies will grow up to be. One possibility is that Allah is destroying what would otherwise be a terrible evil person before they are even people.

Now some may ask why does not Allah spare all children and parents of children born with defects. Sometimes a child born with such defects is a good thing for them and parents. Sometimes the child may grow up to be humble good children, and it teaches the family love and softens their hearts. Allah may be providing a way for these people to enter into His pleasure, thereby entering paradise for bearing such a trial patiently. In these ways it si a possible mercy. I'm not saying this is definatly the case, just my opinion.

 

[Green Gaia]

You don't agree with what? Did you mean you don't believe in the fall?

No, I don't. That shouldn't be a shock.

I also don't agree that because someone a long time ago did something bad, that babies today are born with birth defects, suffer, and die in the womb.

 

[Quiddity]

No, I don't. That shouldn't be a shock.

I also don't agree that because someone a long time ago did something bad, that babies today are born with birth defects, suffer, and die in the womb.

It would be a schock it you did. Just wasn't sure what you disagreed with.