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Statue of Daniel 2 (Abrahamic only)

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
It's not bizarre, Sleeppy. The Jewish "Old Testament", called the TaNaKh, consists of Torah, Prophets and Writings. 1 & 2 Kings and 1 & 2 Samuel are included with the Prophets, because they include the sayings of prophets like Elijah and Elisha. 1 & 2 Chronicles, which in many ways parallel the above books but from a strictly (priestly) Jewish perspective, are in the "writings" (כתבים). Daniel is also in the writings, for "Jewish" (not necessarily bizarre) reasons. To argue with a Jew about whether or not Daniel was a prophet, you simply need to:

1. be Orthodox Jewish,
2. spend your life studying in an approved yeshiva, and
3. have the same rabbi as the person you're talking to.

Is that too much to ask?
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
Yes, I believe Daniel's prophecy recorded in advance the march of world powers from Babylon until today. The stunning accuracy of Daniels prophecies mark them as inspired by God. And as Daniel 2:35,44,45 states, all of man's governments face imminent destruction by God's kingdom.
Rusra, I agree with you. I'm answering you before answering Franklin, because your answer is shorter.

Shalom shalom :)
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
bi·zarre
biˈzär/
adjective
adjective: bizarre

1.
very strange or unusual, esp. so as to cause interest or amusement.
"her bizarre dresses and outrageous hairdos"
synonyms: strange, peculiar, odd, funny, curious, outlandish, outré, abnormal, eccentric, unconventional, unusual, unorthodox, queer, extraordinary; More
informalweird, wacky, bizarro, oddball, way out, kooky, freaky, off the wall, offbeat
"bizarre sculptures"
antonyms: normal, conventional

Origin
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
It's not bizarre, Sleeppy. The Jewish "Old Testament", called the TaNaKh, consists of Torah, Prophets and Writings. 1 & 2 Kings and 1 & 2 Samuel are included with the Prophets, because they include the sayings of prophets like Elijah and Elisha. 1 & 2 Chronicles, which in many ways parallel the above books but from a strictly (priestly) Jewish perspective, are in the "writings" (כתבים). Daniel is also in the writings, for "Jewish" (not necessarily bizarre) reasons. To argue with a Jew about whether or not Daniel was a prophet, you simply need to:

1. be Orthodox Jewish,
2. spend your life studying in an approved yeshiva, and
3. have the same rabbi as the person you're talking to.

Is that too much to ask?

Yes. Right now, I'm an Orthodox Jewish student, like you. Tell me what your Rabbi says, specifically.
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
So Jews only.
Hi, Frank

I'll tackle your short answers first. Yes, Jews only -- either halachic or allegorical. The Bible is God's communication to us, written in OUR language, not His (though Flankert may disagree). The communication consists of words and actions from God to man, man responding to them, etc. As a form of literature, the Bible is best described as a stage play, and can be completely presented as such. Even the portions that don't include characters can be acted out to describe the narration. For several hundred years, the actors were mainly the Jewish nation, and the Jews portrayed the typical response to God that humans all over the world would give. Jesus and his disciples, and the church that came from them, play the part of Jews who have been faithful to God when their brothers and sisters worshipped the works of their own hands -- an expansion of the theme earlier presented by Noah and Abraham. The Jews continue to be part of the play, though, ironically undergoing the sufferings of Christ during their long wandering in the "Wilderness" (yes, I believe it's the same analogy as the "wilderness" in Revelation) of the Gentile world. The play concludes with a grand reunion, complete with full orchestra and chorus -- coming soon in theatres near you.
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
God's people also include true Christians, IMO
See my last response to Franklin. IMO, we are all part of a play, taking on different roles. The followers of Jesus are witnesses of the word of God, having experienced it in Jesus' life. The Jews are also witnesses, having experienced it through the school of hard knocks. Two peoples, two witnesses, one God. The analogy of the olive trees and the lampstand should be obvious, to one familiar with the scriptures.
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
I am often asked why the Book of Daniel is included in the Writings section of the Tanakh instead of the Prophets section. Wasn't Daniel a prophet? Weren't his visions of the future true?

According to Judaism, Daniel is not one of the 55 prophets. His writings include visions of the future, which we believe to be true; however, his mission was not that of a prophet. His visions of the future were never intended to be proclaimed to the people; they were designed to be written down for future generations. Thus, they are Writings, not Prophecies, and are classified accordingly.
-- Judaism 101: Prophets and Prophecy
I like your response, Metis. You "Reformed"s seem to talk with less of a schtick cobweb gumming up your answers than the Orthodox do. I'm glad that, having fully received the the exposition of superior Jewish skill at classifying things, which Flankert and others have given, we can now proceed to talk about what Daniel actually SAID! Hallelujah!
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Daniel receives these visions from God, they're written, proclaimed, and ingested by the people, and we speak as if God made these distinctions Himself.

Where does this decision originate?

Let me use a source that explains it in more detail than I can, although sorry for its length:

On the one hand, the Talmud does explicitly state that Daniel was not a prophet.1 On the other hand, when the Talmud states that only “48 prophets and 7 prophetesses prophesied to Israel,”2 the sages disagree as to whether Daniel is included in that list or not.3

What is even stranger is that the remark in the Talmud that Daniel was not a prophet is made in connection with an incident in which Daniel seems to have seen a vision, when the three official prophets who were with him did not:

“And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, but the men who were with me did not see the vision. But a great quaking fell upon them, and they fled into hiding.”4 Who were these men? Said Rabbi Yirmiyah, and some say it was Rabbi Chiya bar Abba, “They were the [prophets] Chaggai, Zechariah and Malachi. They were superior to him [Daniel], and he was superior to them. They were superior to him, in that they were prophets and he wasn’t. He was superior to them, in that he saw the vision and they did not.”5

We must therefore conclude that what distinguishes someone as a prophet is not whether he or she has visions, but something deeper and more fundamental.

While in common parlance the word “prophecy” is used to describe visions in general, in truth there are two different kinds of visions: prophecy and ruach ha-kodesh (Hebrew for “divine inspiration”). With prophecy, it is almost as if one sees the revelation, gaining an intimate familiarity with the divine, while ruach ha-kodesh is more of a detached, factual kind of knowledge, as shall be explained.

Some prophets see a vision or dream of an angel speaking to them; others see the form of a man, or may perceive that G‑d Himself is speaking to them. And yet others don’t see anything; they only hear the prophetic words addressed to them. The prophet may experience that which is heard with the greatest possible intensity, just as a person may hear or perceive a storm or an earthquake. Or the prophet may hear the prophecy as ordinary speech.6

There are many different levels and types of prophecies,7 but the common denominator between them is the way the prophet’s intellect merges with the divine and transcends the normal powers of the intellect. Thus, when prophets are granted an intimate familiarity with the level of divinity that has been revealed to them, their bodies weaken and tremble and their regular senses become confused or paralyzed, or they simply fall asleep. It is for this reason that we sometimes find that the prophet is referred to in the scriptures as one who is acting irrationally.8 This is not because the prophet lacks wisdom. On the contrary, he or she is connected to G‑d’s wisdom, which transcends human intellect. Rather, it is because during prophecy, the people observing the prophet perceive only the void of what they consider to be rational intellect; they do not, however, perceive how the prophet’s mind has transcended the normal human intellect and is merged with the divine.9

Those who have ruach ha-kodesh, however, feel as if the divine spirit came upon them. With it they receive a new power that encourages them either to take a specific action, speak wisdom, compose hymns, exhort their fellow men or discuss political or theological problems. All this is done while the one with ruach ha-kodesh is in full possession of his or her senses.10

It is true that the inspiration may sometimes come in the form of a dream, as it does with prophets. There is, however, a difference between the visions experienced by prophets in a dream and those that come through ruach ha-kodesh, as was the case with Daniel.

The difference can be seen in how prophets and those inspired by ruach ha-kodesh refer to their visions and dreams. When prophets prophesy, they are informed that the vision was a prophecy, and upon awaking, they state decidedly that it was a prophetic experience.11 For example, when Jacob awakened from his prophetic dream of the angels ascending and descending the ladder, he did not say that it was a dream; rather, he proclaimed (Genesis 28:16), “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of G‑d, and this is the gate of heaven.” And he later referred to the incident by saying (ibid. 48:3), “Almighty G‑d appeared to me in Luz, in the land of Canaan, and He blessed me.”

Daniel, however, used the language of “visions” to describe his experiences, even after he saw angels and received knowledge through them, as we can see from the following verses from the Book of Daniel:

“Then the secret was revealed to Daniel in the vision of the night” (2:19).
“In the first year of Belshazzar, the king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream . . .” (7:1).
“. . . and the visions of my mind terrified me” (7:15).
So while it is true that Daniel had visions, they were on the level of ruach ha-kodesh, divine inspiration. Therefore, the book of Daniel was made part of the biblical section of Ketuvim, the Writings or Hagiographa, and not the Neviim, Prophets.12

When discussing the difference between prophecy and ruach ha-kodesh, a distinction needs to be made between the levels of the divine revelation (how high in the chain of emanation between G‑d and man the individual reaches) and the quality of the revelation (how intimate and clear the revelation is to the individual).

While the quality of the revelation is much greater in prophecy than in ruach ha-kodesh, the level of revelation reached through ruach ha-kodesh can be much higher than that reached through prophecy. Since the prophet gains an intimate knowledge and familiarity with the level of divinity that is being revealed to him or her, to the point that we say that the prophet “saw G‑d,” there is a greater limit to how high of a level of emanation the prophet can see, as G‑d told Moses, “No man can see me and live.”13“

With ruach ha-kodesh, however, it is not as if one actually “saw” or “heard” something; rather, it is similar to perceiving something with the mind. Therefore, the recipient of this ruach ha-kodesh may sometimes be privy to greater knowledge of the myriad levels and layers of divine emanation than even the prophet. For the knowledge received through ruach ha-kodesh is similar to the cataloging of facts, the names of the different spiritual worlds and the rules by which they interact. But in the end, he knows only the fact of their existence (yediat ha-metziut), but he has no real appreciation of their true nature, for he has never “seen it.”

This is what the Talmud means when it proclaims that “a sage is superior to a prophet.”14 For the sage, through ruach ha-kodesh, can be privy to levels of insight that surpass that which the prophets are able to envision tangibly. And while the sage grasps only facts, nevertheless it is divinely inspired knowledge of the facts.15

The levels of prophetic revelation experienced throughout a prophet’s lifetime are, however, not static. The same prophet can at times experience different levels of prophecy, ruach ha-kodesh, or both.16 Therefore, even if Daniel had attained the level of prophecy at one point in his life,17 it was not in relation to the book of Daniel, which is therefore still considered part of the Ketuvim, the Writings.
--http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1735365/jewish/Why-Isnt-the-Book-of-Daniel-Part-of-the-Prophets.htm
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I like your respons, Metis. You "Reformed"s seem to talk with less of a schtick cobweb gumming up your answers than the Orthodox do. I'm glad that, having fully received the the exposition of superior Jewish skill at classifying things, which Flankert and others have given, we can now proceed to talk about what Daniel actually SAID! Hallelujah!

Well thanks, but you might change your mind after what I quoted in my last post. :)
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
I guess the important thing from a scholarly consensus would be to try to prove the existence of a Daniel during that time period in Babylon.

To me, they don't seem to be real stories but just tales spun up among those who were brought to Babylon. It is a tale similar to that of Joseph in Egypt and was probably used as such.
Hi, Frank. I see we're cross-posting. I haven't gotten to your original post yet. Concerning when Daniel lived, two things:

1. Ezekiel, who can confidently be dated to the time of the Babylonian exile, speaks of him:

Ezekiel 14
[14] Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
[15] If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:
[16] Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.
[17] Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:
[18] Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.
[19] Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:
[20] Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

I haven't heard a SOUND explanation to refute this, to date. Ezekiel ranks Daniel with two extremely well-known characters, namely Noah and Job. The "Daniel" he referred to, therefore, had to have been equally well-known among his readers and hearers. This would certainly have been the case, if he had a reputation for interpreting the king's dreams, undergoing fiery trials, etc.

2. The events mentioned in Daniel as occurring in his time all happened between the exile of Jeconiah and the early years of the Persian Empire. The intervening period was something over 70 years, according to Jeremiah 29:10. If Daniel were a young boy during the carrying away of Jeconiah and the noble families of Jerusalem, as the Book of Daniel seems to indicate, and he had a not-unbelievable lifespan of 80+ years, he would have fit in just fine.
 
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BlandOatmeal

Active Member
Yes. Right now, I'm an Orthodox Jewish student, like you. Tell me what your Rabbi says, specifically.
I am not Jewish, Orthodox or otherwise. My brush with Judasim came with spending a year in a conversion program to become a Conservative Jew. I flunked the course, so to speak, but on friendly terms. The Jewish community in my city is not very large, so we make do in various ways. Our resident cohen, for example, also went to the Orthodox and Reconstructionist shuls when needed. He was functionally deaf, and smiled and turned off his hearing aid during the service, so he could justly have been said to have "participated" and "not participated" at the same time. :) He went up for the first aliyah, of course, while the rabbi chanted. I really enjoyed the experience.
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
Well thanks, but you might change your mind after what I quoted in my last post. :)
Yes, I see that your post was very verbose -- and not actually dealing with what Daniel said in any productive way. You were addressing a question, though, and did a good job of it. I hope we can all put that stuff aside now. I conspired with Franklin to start this thread, so we could get into the details of Daniel's words. All you Moses lovers are welcome to join in. (said in friendly tone)

Shalom shalom :)

PS. Franklin, I have to eat lunch now. Catch you all later...
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Let me use a source that explains it in more detail than I can, although sorry for its length:

On the one hand, the Talmud does explicitly state that Daniel was not a prophet.1 On the other hand, when the Talmud states that only “48 prophets and 7 prophetesses prophesied to Israel,”2 the sages disagree as to whether Daniel is included in that list or not.3

What is even stranger is that the remark in the Talmud that Daniel was not a prophet is made in connection with an incident in which Daniel seems to have seen a vision, when the three official prophets who were with him did not:

“And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, but the men who were with me did not see the vision. But a great quaking fell upon them, and they fled into hiding.”4 Who were these men? Said Rabbi Yirmiyah, and some say it was Rabbi Chiya bar Abba, “They were the [prophets] Chaggai, Zechariah and Malachi. They were superior to him [Daniel], and he was superior to them. They were superior to him, in that they were prophets and he wasn’t. He was superior to them, in that he saw the vision and they did not.”5

We must therefore conclude that what distinguishes someone as a prophet is not whether he or she has visions, but something deeper and more fundamental.

While in common parlance the word “prophecy” is used to describe visions in general, in truth there are two different kinds of visions: prophecy and ruach ha-kodesh (Hebrew for “divine inspiration”). With prophecy, it is almost as if one sees the revelation, gaining an intimate familiarity with the divine, while ruach ha-kodesh is more of a detached, factual kind of knowledge, as shall be explained.

Some prophets see a vision or dream of an angel speaking to them; others see the form of a man, or may perceive that G‑d Himself is speaking to them. And yet others don’t see anything; they only hear the prophetic words addressed to them. The prophet may experience that which is heard with the greatest possible intensity, just as a person may hear or perceive a storm or an earthquake. Or the prophet may hear the prophecy as ordinary speech.6

There are many different levels and types of prophecies,7 but the common denominator between them is the way the prophet’s intellect merges with the divine and transcends the normal powers of the intellect. Thus, when prophets are granted an intimate familiarity with the level of divinity that has been revealed to them, their bodies weaken and tremble and their regular senses become confused or paralyzed, or they simply fall asleep. It is for this reason that we sometimes find that the prophet is referred to in the scriptures as one who is acting irrationally.8 This is not because the prophet lacks wisdom. On the contrary, he or she is connected to G‑d’s wisdom, which transcends human intellect. Rather, it is because during prophecy, the people observing the prophet perceive only the void of what they consider to be rational intellect; they do not, however, perceive how the prophet’s mind has transcended the normal human intellect and is merged with the divine.9

Those who have ruach ha-kodesh, however, feel as if the divine spirit came upon them. With it they receive a new power that encourages them either to take a specific action, speak wisdom, compose hymns, exhort their fellow men or discuss political or theological problems. All this is done while the one with ruach ha-kodesh is in full possession of his or her senses.10

It is true that the inspiration may sometimes come in the form of a dream, as it does with prophets. There is, however, a difference between the visions experienced by prophets in a dream and those that come through ruach ha-kodesh, as was the case with Daniel.

The difference can be seen in how prophets and those inspired by ruach ha-kodesh refer to their visions and dreams. When prophets prophesy, they are informed that the vision was a prophecy, and upon awaking, they state decidedly that it was a prophetic experience.11 For example, when Jacob awakened from his prophetic dream of the angels ascending and descending the ladder, he did not say that it was a dream; rather, he proclaimed (Genesis 28:16), “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of G‑d, and this is the gate of heaven.” And he later referred to the incident by saying (ibid. 48:3), “Almighty G‑d appeared to me in Luz, in the land of Canaan, and He blessed me.”

Daniel, however, used the language of “visions” to describe his experiences, even after he saw angels and received knowledge through them, as we can see from the following verses from the Book of Daniel:

“Then the secret was revealed to Daniel in the vision of the night” (2:19).
“In the first year of Belshazzar, the king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream . . .” (7:1).
“. . . and the visions of my mind terrified me” (7:15).
So while it is true that Daniel had visions, they were on the level of ruach ha-kodesh, divine inspiration. Therefore, the book of Daniel was made part of the biblical section of Ketuvim, the Writings or Hagiographa, and not the Neviim, Prophets.12

When discussing the difference between prophecy and ruach ha-kodesh, a distinction needs to be made between the levels of the divine revelation (how high in the chain of emanation between G‑d and man the individual reaches) and the quality of the revelation (how intimate and clear the revelation is to the individual).

While the quality of the revelation is much greater in prophecy than in ruach ha-kodesh, the level of revelation reached through ruach ha-kodesh can be much higher than that reached through prophecy. Since the prophet gains an intimate knowledge and familiarity with the level of divinity that is being revealed to him or her, to the point that we say that the prophet “saw G‑d,” there is a greater limit to how high of a level of emanation the prophet can see, as G‑d told Moses, “No man can see me and live.”13“

With ruach ha-kodesh, however, it is not as if one actually “saw” or “heard” something; rather, it is similar to perceiving something with the mind. Therefore, the recipient of this ruach ha-kodesh may sometimes be privy to greater knowledge of the myriad levels and layers of divine emanation than even the prophet. For the knowledge received through ruach ha-kodesh is similar to the cataloging of facts, the names of the different spiritual worlds and the rules by which they interact. But in the end, he knows only the fact of their existence (yediat ha-metziut), but he has no real appreciation of their true nature, for he has never “seen it.”

This is what the Talmud means when it proclaims that “a sage is superior to a prophet.”14 For the sage, through ruach ha-kodesh, can be privy to levels of insight that surpass that which the prophets are able to envision tangibly. And while the sage grasps only facts, nevertheless it is divinely inspired knowledge of the facts.15

The levels of prophetic revelation experienced throughout a prophet’s lifetime are, however, not static. The same prophet can at times experience different levels of prophecy, ruach ha-kodesh, or both.16 Therefore, even if Daniel had attained the level of prophecy at one point in his life,17 it was not in relation to the book of Daniel, which is therefore still considered part of the Ketuvim, the Writings.
--http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1735365/jewish/Why-Isnt-the-Book-of-Daniel-Part-of-the-Prophets.htm

I actually came across this page myself, from Google...

So the Talmud is the source. How many Rabbis originated these distinctions?
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
1st Criticisms: The Ethnocentric (goodness I hope that's the right word), interpretations of the prophecy.

The interpretation of the prophecy is that the statue represents several key major empires that have existed (this of course defining empires by a very westernized concept, but to continue), it goes in order Babylon, Persia, Greece (Usually considered the empire that ruled the whole world), and then the Roman Empire (which started as the republic and would later become the empire under Augustus). However history has shown us that in terms of Empire's the largest and most successful conquering empire was the one founded by Ghengis Khan, who ruled over an empire that was around 2 times the size of what Alexander the Great had ruled, and did so not only successfully but managed to live long enough to pass it on to his children.
True. As noted earlier, the Mongol Empire is not included, because it and its successors have had only a marginal impact on the Jews; and Daniel's prophesies (in the Oxford/Webster sense) focus on the Jews. I might add, that truly "end-time" prophesies, such as those in Daniel, are mostly found in prophets who came to fore during the early part of the captivity, namely, the Babylonian and Persian periods. That is because they, along with 1 and 2 Chronicles, were intended to

1. give the Jewish people a sense of continuity with the land of Israel and its history, and
2. give them hope of their restitution as a nation and the people of God
His the only human credited with a possible evolutionary shift (arguably), in that his campaign left vast amounts of land for animals to regain a foothold after years of human settlements. The only individual who has ever successfully conquered Afghanistan (where empires go to die) :). Also appeared during a time where the Muslims and Christians were at war and cared very little for the holy city (I might be off on that timeline).
The Mongols successfully obliterated the Baghdad Caliphate, from which the Calif ruled Muslims in a manner parallel to the Pope of Christendom. The Christians had done a remarkable job of taking Jerusalem, and ruling from there for the better part of a century (actually outdoing the modern Jews in this respect). Unfortunately for them, though, they got diverted by a petty pope and even pettier kings, who set to a murderous squabbling among themselves in the Albigensian Crusade.
I think that the issue with the interpretation prophecy of Daniel (ignoring literary criticisms), is an example of the limited and rather ethnocentric view of the message. Even today I would argue most westerners are not at all aware of the accounts of Genghis Khan, and so continue to interpret the prophecy in the manner that they do. But if we look at history, where does such an empire fall into the prophetic vision?
The role of the Mongols in the Abrahamic narratives was more like that of a "plague" than of an empire. In fact, the Great Plague of the 14th Century came to Europe from the Mongol states.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
:facepalm:
He's yours, Metis. Just give him a number, and let's move on...

I'm not sure Metis, or any of the other Jews here have any particular interest in Daniel, or me....

You need to be more clear in relaying who you are, and what it is you're responding to. You directed me to become an Orthodox Jew, under the direction of your specific Rabbi, though you also seem to be saying that you did not successfully become an Orthodox Jew, and that your Rabbi is following the direction of whichever Talmud Rabbis made these distinctions.

The problem I have is your wholehearted trust in titles and offices created and sustained by men. I understand however, that because you want(ed) to become an Orthodox Jew, that you would hardly begin to question your Rabbi's understanding of Judaism and Orthodox Judaism, specifically.


I'd not only like a number, but an explanation of history and procedure, as well.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
True. As noted earlier, the Mongol Empire is not included, because it and its successors have had only a marginal impact on the Jews; and Daniel's prophesies (in the Oxford/Webster sense) focus on the Jews. I might add, that truly "end-time" prophesies, such as those in Daniel, are mostly found in prophets who came to fore during the early part of the captivity, namely, the Babylonian and Persian periods. That is because they, along with 1 and 2 Chronicles, were intended to

1. give the Jewish people a sense of continuity with the land of Israel and its history, and
2. give them hope of their restitution as a nation and the people of God

The Mongols successfully obliterated the Baghdad Caliphate, from which the Calif ruled Muslims in a manner parallel to the Pope of Christendom. The Christians had done a remarkable job of taking Jerusalem, and ruling from there for the better part of a century (actually outdoing the modern Jews in this respect). Unfortunately for them, though, they got diverted by a petty pope and even pettier kings, who set to a murderous squabbling among themselves in the Albigensian Crusade.

The role of the Mongols in the Abrahamic narratives was more like that of a "plague" than of an empire. In fact, the Great Plague of the 14th Century came to Europe from the Mongol states.

The thing is the dream was had by Nebed(i can never spell his name right smh) (seeming to the mirroring of the dream interpretation of Joseph to the Pharoah), the Dream was talking about empires that existed in the world, it does not from the flow merely concentrate on just Gods People--utilization of a great empire that would rule the world referring to Greece as some take it for instance is still rather incorrect given the scope of the world and later empires that would rise.

While I can certainly see why some gleam from the text that it is specific to Gods people, the dream to me seems specific to the world itself. The rise and fall of empires (something that would be important to a King in understanding).

I think you know by now though that I am not particularly one who is a firm believer in prophecies when I don't have a strong understanding of the timeline. Many of a things can appear to be a prophecy if they are written after the fact.

So I take a rather liberal view of prophetic works. For Daniel I see it as a woven story of how special the Jewish nation was to God, that even in exile it was a Jew who would excel in the kings court, following in patterns like Esther for instance.
 
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